Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians

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This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Bands and musicians. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

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Bands and musicians

Robert Corich

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Fails WP:NMUSIC and WP:NCREATIVE. Simply having mastering/remastering credits with no significant, independent coverage of the subject satisfies neither criteria. His own books and his own interview as a critic are not independent sources (and presumably don't cover himself, either). DePRODed by request. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 22:26, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Engineering, and United Kingdom. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 22:26, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: On Wikipedia, he is currently listed in roughly 40 albums, usually as a remastering engineer and usually with colleague Mike Brown: [1]. There is one album with dubious notability where he is listed as executive producer. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rescue (band)

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English band. The usual things about lack of sources. The first link is broken (thehornstalbans.co.uk). Marked for lack of notability since 2011. LastJabberwocky (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: per nom, no sources anywhere ꧁Zanahary꧂ 20:13, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete no indication found the subject meets any aspect of WP:MUSICBIO. ResonantDis_tortion 22:49, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Suggestibles

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A comedy group that improvises musicals. It's an uncited biography of living people, which failed speedy in 2007 for lack of independent reliable sources, so I'm going through this process. LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Theatre, and United Kingdom. LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete looks like they still exist according to their website[2] but the only coverage they've received is an interview on a local website in 2019[3]. Unless better sources can be found, they don't meet wp:gng. Orange sticker (talk) 15:57, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. WP:MILL improv group with very little press coverage. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete: limited amount of mentions in Gnews above, but sourcing is lacking. We simply don't have enough to show notability. Oaktree b (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Lots of hits with sustained secondary coverage available via Proquest, including bylined article in a national newspaper stating this group is one of the "hottest comedy tickets in the north-east". See for example: Guardian, 2007, Evening Chronicle 2004, Journal 2010, Northern Echo 2011. ResonantDis_tortion 09:57, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi, can you drop a couple of more things we can draw from these articles. I still figuring out the best way to find sources for free, and your source isn't free showing me only a preview :). The only things I got are: "Newcastle-based" and one source says they are in-demand. LastJabberwocky (talk) 11:12, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  Hi @LastJabberwocky You can get free access to a variety of databases, including Proquest, via the Wikipedia Library. You need 500 edits and to have had an account for 6 months: Wikipedia:The_Wikipedia_Library. As well as Proquest it also includes access to the Gale database, which also has hits for the subject, such as this one providing bylined commentary on the popularity of the subject's performances. ResonantDis_tortion 11:27, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have added several of these sources to the article, so it is no longer unreferenced. This includes a further sigcov article, archived here. Article still needs work. ResonantDis_tortion 15:22, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for spending your time on a random article! Do you think the cited sentences would be enough for a servable article; and delete the rest. I assume you scanned all the internet and nothing else would be cited if you will not cite it :). LastJabberwocky (talk) 15:40, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  I did a minimum level of analysis to ensure the article is no longer uncited. Please make no further assumptions. For the record, there are so many hits on proquest, ranging from bylined coverage to pure listings, that it's a non-trivial job to trawl through and work out what text can and can't be cited. ResonantDis_tortion 18:46, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Even with new sources provided, which were human interest stories about local artists, these two improv performers still do not meet notability guidelines, certainly not WP:ENT, making "unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment." -- Wikipedical (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rhythm of Love Tour

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Unnotable concert. No coverage in sources. WhoIsCentreLeft (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Bands and musicians. WhoIsCentreLeft (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Cultural impact of Katy Perry

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After a PROD was removed for unclear reasons, I'm taking this to AFD. It's filled with fancruft and comes off as a WP:POVFORK with claims that are unsourced and/or promotional in nature. I therefore suspect whoever started the page up wanted to have a puff piece focused on praising Katy Perry. Either way, the "Legacy" section of her main bio already is sufficient when talking about impact on music. There's no need for a bloated subpage. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, and Popular culture. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 03:10, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Just a random coatrack; can't find any source about Katy Perry's cultural impact ꧁Zanahary꧂ 17:29, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: While she probably has had a cultural impact, and such an article is not beyond possibility, this is not written in an encyclopedic tone and I suspect generative AI was used, with references added after the fact. ... discospinster _talk 22:44, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Al Ferrier

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Biography of a musician, not properly sourced as having any strong claim to passing WP:NMUSIC. As always, musicians are not automatically entitled to have Wikipedia articles just because they existed, and have to pass certain specific notability criteria supported by WP:GNG-worthy third party sourcing about them in media independent of themselves (such as newspapers, music magazines or books) -- but this literally just states that he exists and lists a bunch of singles and albums without making any discernible claim to passage of NMUSIC at all, and the only "reference" in the entire article is his paid inclusion obituary on the self-published website of the funeral home that held his funeral, which is not a notability-assisting source.
This has also already been moved into draftspace once for being unreferenced, before being moved back into mainspace by its creator yesterday upon the addition of the funeral home footnote that isn't cutting it, so it has to come to AFD rather than just being immediately redraftified.
The simple fact that he existed is in no way "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to pass GNG on proper reliable sourcing. Bearcat (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Louisiana. Bearcat (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Meets WP:musicbio#1. Quick search has identified: significant biographical coverage in this 1996 book, published by University of Illinois Press. Single reviews from 1956, and 1957, and an album review from 1976. ResonantDis_tortion 21:26, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Subject was a notable figure in early rockabilly and appeared on the Louisiana Hayride; meets WP:N. RolandSimon (talk) 02:57, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Tiffany Trump

AfDs for this article:

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WP:INVALIDBIO and WP:NOTINHERITED. Barron Trump was recently closed as a redirect, and many of the arguments for he being redirected apply to Tiffany as well: the article isn't very long, she isn't in the public eye very much, and coverage of her invariably mentions her father. Both Barron and Tiffany are adults now. Some presidential children have their own articles; many do not. Her notability hasn't been discussed in nine years (during which there were multiple Barron AfDs) so discussing it now seems fair. _pbp 14:28, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Speedy keep; the decision with respect to Barron Trump has since been reversed, and in any case this is both an WP:OTHERSTUFF assertion, and one where the subject at hand is clearly more notable. BD2412 T 14:49, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the assertion "clearly more notable" needs some evidence backing it up... _pbp 16:11, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
One of the complaints about Barron in the discussion was that he kept a politically lower profile, whereas she was a speaker at the Republican National Convention, with the requisite press coverage. BD2412 T 17:17, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Tiffany in turn keeps a much lower profile than Junior, Eric and Ivanka though... _pbp 19:27, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - She was already deemed notable by the community in two previous AfD attempts, becoming so thanks to media coverage the first time her father ran for President, and notability is not temporary. While she is less political than the rest of the family, her fashion business and occasional speeches in connection with her father have generated media coverage. Also, a person's love or hatred of the limelight is not part of the notability calculus, and we do not have a mathematical formula here for how "low" or "high" someone's profile should be. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 23:01, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – Sufficient WP:SIGCOV to estabilishes WP:GNG per her own. Svartner (talk) 03:07, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the amount of significant coverage is massive, as the article clearly shows. Passes WP:GNG with flying colours.--cyclopia ^speak! 11:59, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Typaldos D. children's choir

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I think this sort of thing (a children's band from a foreign country) is a uniquely difficult thing to find sources on. All the same I'm failing to find coverage in-depth coverage reliable sources (lots of passing credits or else promotion of upcoming event). I'm also having trouble finding anything about the award talked about in the article (although again it being a Portuguese award from the 90s, which I only have the English name of makes confirmation difficult). I don't see this passing based on this though, as it doesn't seem to be a "major music competition", as WP:BAND requires. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 12:42, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Greece. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 12:42, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This article doesn't cite any sources at all and fails WP:BAND. The award talked about in specific is not notable, and upon trying to find any reliable sources for the choir, none can be found.

WormEater13 (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: per nom, only award is from a non-notable organization and reliable sources are absent. Fails WP:BAND. Sophisticatedevening🍷^(talk) 13:15, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Not notable Lord Mountbutter (talk) 18:18, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A-Wax

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Fails WP:NMUSIC and GNG, and seems like a trojan horse of BLP violations since a lot of the information around rap feuds is unsourced. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:30, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and California. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:57, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Citations are fake, article is low quality, possibly generated by a llm and the creator has been banned see here for more info. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty nine (talk) 11:37, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom: this subject appears to fail WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:ANYBIO for lack of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. JFHJr (㊟) 03:12, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Per above. Svartner (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above - this page is a compendium of AI, BLP violations, stereotypes, and poor sourcing. Bearian (talk) 20:23, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ankhlejohn

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The sources in the article and a WP:BEFORE mostly turn up press releases and interviews in non-RSes. I don't see anything that indicates general notability or WP:NMUSIC. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:34, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Businesspeople, and Washington, D.C.. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:56, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Citations are fake, article was originally possibly generated by a llm and the creator has been banned see here for more info. aside from that; Ankhlejohn doesnt seem to meet general notability guidelines and there does not appear to be any significant coverage of them fifteen thousand two hundred twenty nine (talk) 12:29, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom: this subject appears to fail WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:ANYBIO for lack of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. JFHJr (㊟) 03:16, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for total lack of reliable sources. Created by an SPA who was not here to build an encyclopedia. Bearian (talk) 20:14, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Percy Keith

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I don't see anything that indicates WP:NMUSIC or even GNG. The best sources are local news coverage of Percy Keith being arrested for drug / gun charges, which definitely doesn't contribute to notability. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:37, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Crime, and Louisiana. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:55, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. largely uncited with the first citation being a very fake youtube link, article is low quality, possibly generated by a llm and the creator has been banned see here for more info. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty nine (talk) 11:43, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom: this subject appears to fail WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:ANYBIO for lack of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. JFHJr (㊟) 03:12, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom, especially WP:GNG, and yet again today, WP:TNT. I'm also extremely concerned about several arguably per se defamatory statements in the article, depending on the jurisdiction (in some states, an allegation of impurity or an uncharged crime are still causes of action). I don't want to make the situation worse by pointing them out. You don't have to be paranoid to think that this might be a trap. Bearian (talk) 20:12, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lil' Eto

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Not notable rapper, I can't find much aside from WP:BANDCAMP and other user generated sources. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:38, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and New York. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:54, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per Nom. Insanityclown1 (talk) 07:22, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fake citations, article is low quality, possibly generated by a llm and the creator has been banned see here for more info. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty nine (talk) 11:44, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom: this subject appears to fail WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:ANYBIO for lack of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. JFHJr (㊟) 03:11, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:V. Clicking on the first two citations found 404 dead links and dozens of cookies, possibly malicious. Bearian (talk) 19:59, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hus Kingpin

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No indication that this meets WP:NMUSIC, most of the sources are bandcamp and spotify links. A WP:BEFORE didn't turn up any good sources either. BuySomeApples (talk) 04:45, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and New York. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:54, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fake citations, article is low quality, possibly generated by a llm and the creator has been banned see here for more info. fifteen thousand two hundred twenty nine (talk) 11:45, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nominator. Also noting that an AI detector indicated that at least 75% of the (hypey) article are AI-generated. JSFarman (talk) 15:58, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom: this subject appears to fail WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:ANYBIO for lack of substantial coverage in multiple reliable sources. JFHJr (㊟) 03:13, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

LEZO (rap group)

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No claim to any notability. Fails WP:N. Deleted in Ukrainian Wikipedia. Mitte27 (talk) 10:46, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Jason Kardong

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This article is just talking more about who the subject collabed with in music rather that about himself. And looking for sources on him, I didn't find any sources on him. GamerPro64 05:52, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per WP:TNT. This page can not be fixed by ordinary editing. It's as if the creator has never actually read a Wikipedia article. WP:NOTRESUME. Bearian (talk) 14:39, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arghoslent

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Nominating this for deletion. Unnotable and now seemingly inactive fringe band without even an active website. Keystone18 (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Virginia. Shellwood (talk) 23:10, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - They do have some minor media coverage, but always as one example among many others of bands that were removed from streaming services or otherwise attracted controversy for their lyrics. In other words, they appear as a bullet point in lists. Their music itself, or their particular lyrics for that matter, never generated any significant and independent coverage that I can find. The band was deleted long ago even when our notability requirements were much more lenient that now. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 14:58, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. White power music doesn't get coverage in normal journalism for obvious reasons, but the notable ones do tend to get coverage in academic sources, which they do. There is sigcov in Music and Genocide, a Peter Lang book. More here [4] [5] that plus the news coverage is decent. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also this French book on NSBM [6] from a decent music specialist publisher. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:56, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

+ sigcov in a book from one of the same authors, but not sure if it is the same book just translated? [7] this appears to be from a normal music book publisher. cited a decent amount in academic works [8] PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:01, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable per sources above. Seacactus 13 (talk) 14:33, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arvid Andersen

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Subject does not appear to me to be notable, corresponding danish article's only source is a dead database, and never directly linked to a specific page on that database. Gnisacc (talk) 21:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak delete: The Danish wiki page has enough info, IF it was sourced. Since it doesn't, it fails notability, and I'm for deletion. LastJabberwocky (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Drop Dead! (Argentine band)

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The band has not become more notable since the last deletion discussion in 2009. The band lacks coverage in reliable sources (most sources are self-published, not independent, or lacking significant coverage), and other WP:BAND criteria are not met. PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke) 20:58, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I have nothing to add. I agree! LastJabberwocky (talk) 21:25, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Insufficient coverage by independent, reliable secondary sources to pass WP:GNG and WP:BAND.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:33, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Amarfis

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I have carried out WP:BEFORE for this previously unfootnoted article about a musician, and added one reference, though it is a passing mention. I cannot see significant coverage in reliable, independent sources, and therefore don't think he meets WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO, and nor can I find evidence that he meets WP:NMUSICIAN. No obvious redirect target. Tagged with notability concerns since 2018. Tacyarg (talk) 05:30, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Vocalist for a non-notable band. An editor from Mars (talk) 06:14, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep – The band's name was misspelled. It's "La Banda de Atakke", not "La Banda de Attake". Searching with the right name helped with my search. In 2006, Amarfis won Billboard's Tropical Airplay Song Of The Year, New Artist.[9]. I think that counts for WP:MUSICBIO #8. Meeting this criterion wouldn't make him automatically notable, but it would help.

Refbomb of press releases, questionably independent sources, and trivial coverage to review if he is already notable for other reasons: El Nuevo Diario (República Dominicana), Listín Diario, CDN, El Caribe Diario Libre

Ping me if he doesn't meet WP:MUSICBIO #8. — PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke) 22:57, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – Per lack of WP:SIGCOV. Svartner (talk) 04:01, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Insufficient coverage by independent, reliable secondary sources to pass WP:GNG and WP:BAND.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Aditi Saigal

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This is a case of Wp:TOOSOON. Just one film as acting career and one ep for that she received some press coverage. Other than that she is daughter of singer and actor parents but notability is not inherited. Fails wp:NACTOR and Wp:NMUSIC as well. Zuck28 (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Per WP:FORBES, Forbes is generally considered a reliable source and can see Forbes covering profile for this person in their article here ^[1] Circular Karma (talk) 14:06, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.forbesindia.com/article/30-under-30-2024/aditi-saigal-aka-dot-winning-with-words-and-melody/91751/1

Not all individuals featured in Forbes necessarily meet the eligibility threshold for a standalone Wikipedia article.

The subject must first satisfy the notability criteria outlined in Wikipedia's WP:Notability guidelines as a prerequisite for inclusion.

Zuck28 (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Notability is not established per WP:NACTOR, WP:MUSICBIO nor WP:GNG. The sourcing consists of standard PR type promo that one would see for any emerging actor with a press agent, including Forbes, which is not significant coverage, it's simply a photo of her with a caption mentioning her name, thus trivial. The Forbes "profile" link above is more standard PR ~~written by "Forbes Staff", (it does not even have a by-line)~~. I agree with the nom that this is a case of WP:TOOSOON. Perhaps in a few more years this emerging actor will become notable, but at this time, one acting role, Spotify "fans" and famous parents is not enough. Netherzone (talk) 15:46, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It does have a byline and in my view counts as one piece of significant reliable sources coverage. Another reliable bylined piece in the Hindu here, another bylined piece here, leaning Keep for WP:GNG rather than WP:NACTOR imvAtlantic306 (talk) 20:50, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: One film is not sufficient to pass WP:NACTOR. Need at-least three feature films/web series/TV to comply WP:ACTOR. Forbes 30 Under 30 is paid. Bakhtar40 (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
General comment: Two is enough. Guideline says: "multiple" not "several". -Mushy Yank. 14:35, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: coverage has her meet WP:GNG. At worst a redirect to The_Archies_(film)#Cast is totally warranted so opposed to deletion. -Mushy Yank. 14:38, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails to meet WP:NACTRESS. RangersRus (talk) 18:44, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:02, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Schwartz

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Lack of any notability whatsoever - prior print sources were bogus and unverifiable. Biased and POV statements littered throughout the article and the subject has flaunted said article on social media (facebook) many times. Large chunk of contributions to the article are from suspicious anonymous IP addresses that have only edited that page, as well as Guy Schwartz's own wikipedia account. Subject has not established notability and this page should be deleted. Brandonac4473 (talk) 09:08, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Politicians, Journalism, Television, New Jersey, and Texas. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:47, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Well, the article is unsourced, so that's of no help. I don't find anything for sourcing. Could be notable, but the lack of any kind of sourcing isn't helpful. Could be a hoax or an LLM article for all I know. Could likely speedy this. Oaktree b (talk) 14:47, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment is the nominator the ip who removed the references which are shown here on the basis that they were bogus such as the Houston Press?. However, I did find this piece in the Houston Press here so maybe they weren't as bogus as is claimed, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:59, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep also found these other Houston Press articles about him here, here,here, here, here, and here. Going by this evidence the other references removed such as Billboard may be genuine as well, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, yes I am the user who called the Houston press in an attempt to independently verify the articles he cited on his own wikipedia page - none of those print articles existed according to them.

Your first link to houston press is talking about MARTY schwartz, not Guy Schwartz - Marty is a youtuber with infinitely more notoriety.

Of the rest of the articles you linked, guy schwartz is the main subject of only TWO of those articles - and not to mention, they are all by the same publication. Which per WP:GNG - "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability."

The only cited source within the entire article that I could find that had any direct ties to guy schwartz was yet another Houston Press article from 2007 entitled "South By Due East↵Racket heads for Austin as Guy Schwartz and M. Martin bicker over the history of a local festival" and it was incorrectly cited for a statement that claimed they have been running said festival since 2003 - which the article mentions nowhere. Thus why I pulled it from the article.

Perhaps Guy Schwartz could write a new wikipedia page about himself with info from those two articles that he is the subject of, appropriately citing things that are within those articles for the information therein. But the article as it stands is a plethora of wild unsupported claims - such as claims of a 2016 presidential campaign that are based in nothing but fantasy. Claiming he toured with Duran Duran, Todd Rundgren and Huey Lewis.

If Guy Schwartz was truly notable, then one would think he would manage more than a couple articles in Houston Press about his band. Brandonac4473 (talk) 09:17, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the Billboard references I confirmed were bogus through online archives of those issues he claimed he was in.

It also doesnt change the fact that none of those articles you linked were cited within the page. Had they been, this may have been a different story. Albeit the issue still stands: Per WP:GNG "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability." Brandonac4473 (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response, I've removed the Marty Schwartz reference. Agree more sources are required, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 19:25, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you agree more sources are required for notability, then please consider changing your recommendation to delete. Brandonac4473 (talk) 03:12, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly remove the bold in your request as it might be considered a !vote and it is assumed that nominators are generally in favour of deletion and cannot !vote. ◇Not sure it is appropriate to ask a voter to change their suggestion the way you did, but maybe that’s not an issue. -Mushy Yank. 18:22, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies - unbolded that word.

They can obviously do whatever they want, but I figured asking them to reconsider their vote would be appropriate considering that they now agree with the basis of my issue with the article to begin with - that more sources are needed. Brandonac4473 (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not yet fully convinced that additional sources do not exist so am sticking with my keep vote pending further evidence, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:18, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Houston Chronicle has bits of coverage about him; including this presenting him as "an icon of the Houston scene". -Mushy Yank. 00:11, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(and same media: https://www.chron.com/entertainment/music/article/guy-schwartz-new-jack-hippies-1979508.php (based on an interview)+ or this (short/similar to first and with similar appraisal, "a Houston institution"); this interview at Rag Radio (with an extensive presentation) (see WP:INTERVIEWS, an essay) can serve is this is kept to expand and verify. So that imv, he might meet one or two of the inclusion criteria as defined in the guideline about WP:Notability (music), namely:

"Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself"

(excludes interviews) and/or, more likely:

"Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city"

Houston is a city. GS, at 73, seems to be listed among the most prominent Americana musicians of its local scene. Ergo (weak) keep? If kept, the article, currently tag-bombed, should be cleaned up. -Mushy Yank. 00:31, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of these articles you linked support the plethora of claims made throughout the article?

This is why my attempts to verify them were so exhaustive. There are no credible sources for him having ran a 2016 presidential campaign, no credible sources for having toured with Duran Duran or Huey Lewis.

He might've passed WP:GNG if those articles were properly cited within the article but they weren't cited at all.

And Houston Chronicle calling his band an "icon" is a stretch particularly when their latest "music video" has 48 views on youtube. link

Houston Chronicle is open for business btw for paid promotions. Brandonac4473 (talk) 04:38, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even if notability is established, WP:NDELETE still says a wikipedia article must cite sources for whatever information it presents - regardless of notability.

The entirety of the article is filled with unverifiable claims. He still doesn't pass WP:GNG in my opinion but the criteria to delete the page has absolutely been met per WP:NDELETE even if he is truly notable. Brandonac4473 (talk) 09:16, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to fix it, then and remove everything you think is inappropriate (please do not WP:BLANK the page, though). As for the idea that a page about a "truly notable subject" should (or even could) be deleted because the page has no sources cited, although sources exist (and in the case of an/this AfD, especially if sources are presented!!!!), I am very sorry, but: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Just read Wikipedia:Notability#Notability_is_based_on_the_existence_of_suitable_sources,_not_on_the_state_of_sourcing_in_an_article, which is a WP:guideline. "WP:NDELETE" is an essay (="the advice or opinions of one [..] Wikipedia contributor[s]", not a policy or guideline). You are totally free to cite it and it is not a problem, but it has little, if any, weight as an argument to delete a page. (I completely disagree with that essay, personally, and find it is full of wild and reckless assertions). Also, articles that do not pass WP:GNG but meet a given WP:SNG may be kept, depending on the case. Best, -Mushy Yank. 10:43, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, so you disagree with WP:NDELETE, thats fine.

Do you think Guy Schwartz meets WP:SIGCOV?

A brief mention in a list of other houston musicians seems like a trivial mention. Brandonac4473 (talk) 22:09, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: fails WP:N. The phoney 2016 presidential campaign with no citations to back it up says everything to me. Nominator appears to have tried to independently verify the print articles thoroughly. My own searching of “Guy Schwartz” on the internet doesnt produce much either, except for his wiki page. Non-notable. Brenae wafato (talk) 21:56, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment found this here about his supposed 2016 Presidential bid but he doesn't seem to have made the ballot according to official records, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 19:07, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bass-T

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Does not appear to meet WP:NMUSIC or WP:GNG based on a WP:BEFORE search. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:11, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Germany. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:11, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the subject does appear to have an extensive catalogue of releases. Out of these, three singles do appear to have had impact on national charts: Germany and Austria. ResonantDis_tortion 19:01, 1 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Currently lacks sufficient citations from reliable, independent sources to fully establish his notability. RolandSimon (talk) 04:28, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:04, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Snovi

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Snovi is a Croatian band. The page relies solely on self-published sources (Facebook page, Bandcamp) and doesn't have any reliable independent sources. Based on WP:Band. Google News don't show anything related to Snovi. Other wikis don't have a page for Snovi. LastJabberwocky (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. LastJabberwocky (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2025 March 28. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:58, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Nothing found in Gnews. Gsearch only brings up bandcamp, youtube an their website. Sourcing now in the article is non-RS as the nom states. Not meeting musical notability. Oaktree b (talk) 15:01, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Previous WP:PROD candidate, ineligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:36, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Croatia-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 02:39, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Katrina Johansson

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non notable musician. Lacks coverage in independent reliable sources. Musicians are not automatically entitled to have Wikipedia articles just because their work exists. There needs to be coverage about them or their work. duffbeerforme (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, only sources are database-type, and can't find anything that should qualify on my own searches Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 13:26, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, and Wisconsin. Shellwood (talk) 13:37, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Previous WP:PROD candidate, ineligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:27, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I deprodded this because I thought the deletion without either a search of all the potential sources or an open discussion would be a mistake. Bearian (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - I've added a couple of references to the article and there's also this one in Guitar World from 2011 that I haven't had a chance to add yet. I'll try to find more. Nnev66 (talk) 02:02, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dondero High School A Capella Choir Pop Concert

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I rejected this at draftspace but it was moved to mainspace and renamed. This fails WP:GNG due to a lack of secondary coverage. The book was written by someone who went to the high school and isn't secondary, and the reporting is local coverage, mostly of the book which was written. It's also not written from a neutral point of view, which is a clean up issue if this is kept. SportingFlyer T·C 23:39, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Music, and Michigan. SportingFlyer T·C 23:39, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The book is usable for historical information, and we don't need it to establish notability because the Detroit News and Oakland Press articles are enough to establish notability. The articles are relevant. The Detroit News is one of the most important newspapers in the United States. The Oakland Free Press is the most important newspaper in Oakland County. Articles relevant to Metro Detroit help achieve notability. The area has a greater population than some countries. The Metro Detroit area has millions of people. If you asked 100 people what their subjective opinion on what a neutral point of view is, they would give 100 different answers. As far as I am aware, the statements in the article are backed by reliable sources. I believe that is as objective as you can get. Orlando Davis (talk) 01:41, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why does this article meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines? Wikipedia rules require significant coverage of reliable and independent sources so that a fair and balanced article can be written. All of the articles used in the Pop Concert article are from reliable sources, including the Detroit News article and two separate Oakland Press articles, and those articles have the pop concert as the main subject and not just a passing mention, making the coverage in the Detroit News and Oakland Press articles significant. The Detroit News and Oakland Press articles are also independent sources as they were written by writers who were not affiliated with the pop concert. Wikipedia requires at least one secondary source for an article to qualify, and this article has several secondary sources, including the Detroit News article and the 2 Oakland Press articles. Wikipedia requires multiple sources for an article to qualify (The definition of multiple is more than one). The Detroit News article and the 2 separate Oakland Press articles satisfy the multiple articles Wikipedia guideline. See Wikipedia's notability guidelines posted here in the section "why we have these requirements": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability. The Pop Concert article also establishes notability by explaining that the Pop Concert was innovative and groundbreaking for its time in the field of high school choir performance. Also, I had the right to move up the Pop Concert article once it was no longer in the articles of creation space since I am an autoconfirmed user. Orlando Davis (talk) 02:30, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally: "Local sources are considered to be reliable sources if they meet Wikipedia's guidelines for being reliable sources. They are valid in establishing notability if they provide in-depth, non-routine, non-trivial coverage of the subject." See this Wikipedia article: Wikipedia:Notability (local interests)#:~:text=Articles on local interests are,going, non-trivial coverage. As I stated before, the Detroit News and Oakland Press articles provide in-depth coverage, and not just a passing mention of the Dondero Pop Concert. Also, the article Mr Hartoe's Opus was written 9 years before the other articles and compares Mr. Hartsoe's story to the movie Mr. Holland's Opus while discussing the history of the Dondero Pop Concert. The other two articles mention the book but focus primarily on the history of the Dondero Pop concert. Orlando Davis (talk) 17:14, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:20, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete article created by an IP in 2024. Sourcing is not good. Does not seem notable or encyplopedic. Probably a promoter or someone close to the subject. Ramos1990 (talk) 21:19, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please cite why you think the sourcing is not good? Seems not notable is not a reason. You should back that with some sort of Wikipedia regulation. See this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy It's not about how you feel about something. A potential conflict of interest is not a reason to delete an article, and it is already under review. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:An_interest_is_not_a_conflict_of_interest Orlando Davis (talk) 22:12, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Dondero High School. I don't think this can be said to have notability separate from the institution, given its purely local provenance. BD2412 T 01:57, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Merging seems like a plausible outcome, but no consensus has been reached on this. It would be good if those who think the sourcing is good, or the sourcing is bad, would explain their policy-based reasoning for their position.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:28, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I dont see how this book is notable. A quick Google search shows 0 results. WhoIsCentreLeft (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I just did a google search of the Dondero High School Pop Concert and got lots of results including the sources that have links on the bottom of the Dondero Pop Concert article.The article is not about the book. It is about the Dondero High School pop concert. As I already stated earlier in the conversation, the notability is based on significant coverage from multiple sources (The definition of multiple is more than one). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability Those sources are the Detroit News and two articles from the Oakland Press that have links. We can use the book for historical information, but we don't need the book for the article's notability because notability is established by the Detroit News and Oakland press articles that have links at the bottom of the page. As I stated earlier in the conversation, those sources are reliable and provide in depth coverage of the Dondero Pop Concert. Orlando Davis (talk) 13:43, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We should not merge the page because it does not qualify to merge based on Wikipedia's merging policy. Wikipedia:Merging#:~:text=Any editor can perform a,and discussed, as detailed below. Please cite a Wikipedia policy page and quote if you think the page should merge if you vote this way. Orlando Davis (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Detroit News and Oakland Free Press are not small-town newspapers. The Detroit News is one of the two most important newspapers in Detroit, which is one of the biggest cities in the United States, and the Oakland Press is the most important newspaper in one of the biggest counties in the United States. These are the sources that establish notability for the Dondero High School A Capella Choir Pop Concert article. The guidelines are clear about how notability is established, and the article is notable because it includes multiple articles on the subject of the article with significant coverage and not just a passing mention. Orlando Davis (talk) 13:54, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Dondero High School: Honestly on the fence whether to add roughly 1 sentence into Dondero High School or just delete. This clearly does not satisfy WP:NEVENT. Besides its local geographical scope, the ~~second~~first Oakland Press piece is entirely based on an interview with Pete Wurdock, who is not an independent source, and the Detroit News piece is mostly based on interviews with Wurdock and Hartsoe. They're more about the book launch than the concert itself. The ~~first~~second Oakland Press piece only contains a passing mention of the concert. Not to mention that Wurdock's book is self-published. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the news organization is independent and reliable, it doesn't matter what interviews they use. They are still independent, and we trust their judgment on the content they produce. I'm not sure why you bring up event notability when the Dondero Pop Concert was not a singular event but an annual concert that went on for 39 years. And events are notable if they meet general notability guidelines, which the article does meet because it has significant coverage, not just a passing mention from multiple sources.

It's absolutely false that the Detroit News and Oakland Press articles are more about the book launch than the concert itself. You obviously didn't read either. Also, you make the Oakland Press sound like it's the newspaper of a city with 5 thousand people. It is the top newspaper of one of the most highly populated counties in the United States.

Summary of Detroit News to explain how it talks in depth about the Dondero High School Pop Concert:

The article discusses how Mr. Hartsoe cultivated a passion for rock for his students, also when and who performed the Dondero High School Pop Concert, and how the concert was sold out each year. Wurdock (A ex student of Mr Hartose) is quoted explaining how playing in the concert made the students feel. The Detroit News article talks about how Hartsoe broke through to anti-establishment teens by allowing them to perform in the Dondero Pop Concert. The article also talks about how performing rock music is complex and that the goal for Mr. Hartsoe was to get the kids to replicate the sounds as closely as possible for the Dondero Pop Concert. Additionally, it discusses how Hartsoe departed from the Soprano-Alto-Treble-Bass to instead do as many as 14 different levels for the Dondero High School Pop Concert. And also how Dan Palmer, who was a student in Hartsoe's A Cappella choir in the early 70s, continued to work for the concert after he graduated, writing the charts for the songs. It also explains how the students got into the Dondero Pop Concert by passing the 10-page test and getting into A Cappella choir. And the Detroit News article talks at the end about the final pop concert that was partly a reunion of prior soloists performing one last time. All of that information in the article is about the concert and comprises most of the article. So the Detroit News article definitely is about the Dondero High School Pop Concert. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/life/columnists/marney-rich-keenan/2015/03/24/book-celebrates-history-dondero-high-school-pop-concerts/70407132/

Summary of Oakland Press to explain how it talks in depth about the Dondero High School Pop Concert:

The first Oakland Press article has a lot of information about the concert; it explains that kids from other schools tried to copy the concert but failed. The article discusses the different components that it took to make the concert happen, including getting the instrumentalists, vocalists, and the sound techs to know their parts, and how Hartose wanted the band to sound just like the albums of the bands covered by the A Cappela choir and instrumentalists. It goes over the history of the concert, how in 67 Hartsoe got a job at Dondero High School and first added pop songs to the songs performed by the Dondero A Cappella choir, and how that didn't go well with all the students at first. The article also discusses the very first songs chosen, Jose Feliciano's "Guantanamera" and The Bob Crewe Generation's "Music to Watch Girls By". The article also explains how Jay Palmer and his brother Dan joined the band and the reaction to the first electric guitar being brought on stage to an audience that was accustomed to traditional music. It also explains how Dan Palmer began making the arrangements for Pop Concert. And the article also talks about how the concert evolved to more than just basic rock and roll by covering the progressive rock bands Yes, Boston, the Alan Parsons Project, and Queen. Also, Pete Wurdock explains that Hartsoe was innovative in his teaching methods and a great coach, which explains Hartsoe's role in making the Pop Concert happen. The information I discussed is most of the article's content; what do you mean by a passing mention? You obviously did not read the article and are trying to pretend you did for some reason that I don't understand. https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2015/03/02/local-author-releases-book-about-dondero-pop-concerts/

It doesn't matter that Wurdock's book is self-published because the Detroit News and Oakland Press articles establish notability. But we can use the book for historical information. Orlando Davis (talk) 02:21, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I switched the first and second Oakland Press pieces, my bad. WP:NEVENT does apply to recurring events. My point about the Oakland Press piece is that it's not doing any independent reporting about the concert, just directly and indirectly quoting Wurdock's own thoughts. E.g. Pete Wurdock explains that Hartsoe was innovative in his teaching methods and a great coach, but this is Wurdock's opinion about the concerts, not the opinion of any independent source. The Detroit News piece is similar. Also, please don't add long responses to every comment that largely reiterate the same points you already made—this can be interpreted as WP:BLUDGEONING the discussion. I have already read through your comments and the sources. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 03:44, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is not bludgeoning, there have been highly incorrect assertions, so I have responded to each one with facts. Those facts took me a lot of space.

Here is a quote from the WIki Don't Bludgeon page: "To falsely accuse someone of bludgeoning is considered uncivil, and should be avoided. Everyone should have the chance to express their views within reasonable limits. Sometimes, a long comment or replying multiple times is perfectly acceptable or needed for consensus building." Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process

There was no other way for me to explain that you were stating false information. You switching the articles doesn't change the fact that you said the articles were about the book launch and that's false. They are about the Dondero Pop Concert. I responded by summarizing the articles to show that's not true.Yes, that's lengthy, but it was the only way I knew to show that what you said is false.

Your interpretation of how the Oakland press and Detroit News report is not a fact or guideline. Using an interview does not take away the fact that is an independent source. The Oakland Press and Detroit News articles are independent sources per wikipedia guidelines. Orlando Davis (talk) 04:31, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Helpful Raccoon says that he accidentally switched the 2 Oakland Press articles. The second Oakland Press explains how Hartsoe came to Dondero High School as a 25-year-old and began integrating popular music into the choir curriculum. This is relevant to understanding the beginnings of the Dondero High School Pop Concert. The article explains that at that time, incorporating popular music was a radical idea, which is relevant because that is one of the reasons the concert is notable, that it was innovative and groundbreaking for its time.

It also explains his music teaching philosophy that students could learn as much from rock music as from classical music. And that rock music can be harder than classical music. This is a discussion of why Hartsoe believed the annual Dondero Pop Concert was worthwhile. The article also explains how students performed Chicago, Yes, and Boston, which was performed at the Dondero High School Pop concert during its 39 years. That is an explanation of how teaching popular music through the Dondero Pop Concert was a critical part of Hartsoe’s legacy. Anyway, the other Oakland Press article and the Detroit News article are already enough to establish notability since that is multiple coverage.

https://www.theoaklandpress.com/2006/03/17/mr-hartsoes-opus/ Orlando Davis (talk) 03:47, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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