Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Veneto for Autonomy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Tosi List for Veneto. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Veneto for Autonomy

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Local assembly group that does not meet the principles of general notability. The page begins with a substantial original research: Veneto for Autonomy was not a political party, but a mere group in the Regional Council of Veneto. The first part of the "History" section concerns the Tosi List, the second part merely states that the group was founded (while the last line concerns exclusively Roberto Caon and not this group).

The exact same information can be found on the Tosi List for Veneto page, so at most it could be transformed into a redirect to the latter. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Organizations, Politics, and Italy. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:24, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Conservatism-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 14:25, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This political party or whatever you want to call it (also an assembly group is encyclopedic... why not?) was active for several years, it was represented in the Regional Council of Veneto (a region with 5 million people) for three years by a leading regional politician, included other notable members (like Liga Veneta's former presidente Luca Baggio), obtained 3.6% in the 2020 Venetian regional election in a joint list with Forza Italia named "Forza Italia – Autonomy for Veneto" (this should be written both in this article and the article about the election) and was represented in the Italian Parliament for seven years. The article clearly deserves an article of its own. It it is not possible to keep it as I would like, an alternative (worse) solution would be to merge it with Tosi List for Veneto, in order to preserve the article's history, at least. --Checco (talk) 06:21, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Veneto for Autonomy has not been represented in the Italian Parliament for seven years, Roberto Caon was a member of Forza Italia. The "Veneto for Autonomy" group was made up of only one person, Maurizio Conte. Baggio, in addition to being no longer a regional councilor in 2017, has never joined this "political organization", but to an unknown party with a similar name: Veneto per le Autonomie. I am not aware that any source certifies that the wording "Autonomy for Veneto" in the Forza Italia list was due to the link with this group. This page is really badly written. Excluding these original researches and incorrect information, what little remains is already written on the page of the Tosi List for Veneto.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Checco,

1) could you please share sources backing your claims? I can't find anywhere that Veneto per l'Autonomia obtained 3.6% in the 2020 Venetian regional election and that it was able to elect a representative in Italian parliament.

2) "The article clearly deserves an article of its own" is not a valid argument. A subject deserves an article only if the subject is notable. The mere fact that the subject exists doesn't mean that it is notable. As primary criteria, a subject is presumed notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I would like to highlight the word presumed, which means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article. Finally, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. P1221 (talk) 12:15, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I perfectly understand that it is difficult to find sources on minor parties in the web, but Wikipedia and encyclopedias in general is especially useful at gathering information on issues of which ordinary people are not aware of. Veneto for Autonomy, a party whose main members and founders were Conte, Caon and Baggio[1] (you may not know them, but Caon and Baggio are besides Conte in this picture from VdA's founding press conference and the three were together also previously),[2] soon became an electoral ally and then an associate party of Forza Italia. Baggio, who was the party's president, was very close to Conte and they both joined Forza Italia at some point.[3][4][5] Similarly, did Caon.[6] When Conte joined Forza Italia, his affiliation in the Regional Council was changed to "Forza Italia – Veneto for Autonomy" (see an official letter of the joint group). In the 2020 Venetian regional election the alliance was confirmed and Conte was an unsuccessful candidate in the province of Padua.[7] In the meantime, Caon had been re-elected to the Chamber of Deputies in 2018. --Checco (talk) 06:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These sources confirm a few things: 1. VpA was a group on the regional council (not a party); 2. the sources certainly demonstrate a political closeness between Conte (member of VpA) and Baggio and Caon, but no source explicitly declares the direct adhesion of the latter two to VpA (since it was a group and they were not regional councilors), so their adhesion is only supposed; 3. the affiliation of VpA (that is Conte) to Forza Italia was well known, as was his candidacy in its list. On the other hand, the joint electoral list between FI and this group is not proven. This source ([8]) claims that the additional diction "Autonomia per il Veneto" (not "Veneto per l'Autonomia") in Forza Italia's list was due to its support for Veneto's regional autonomy.

I think you did well to report these sources, but personally I think they are not sufficient to demonstrate the relevance of VpA... De facto, the only thing proven about VPA is that it was a split from the Tosi List. --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 09:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

However, I have a question to ask: which source affirms that Baggio was president of the party?--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I perfectly understand that it is difficult to find sources on minor parties in the web printed materials (newspapers, magazines, books...) are accepted sources, too.

but Wikipedia and encyclopedias in general is especially useful at gathering information on issues of which ordinary people are not aware of quite so... Wikipedia gathers information on notable subjects, not on everything. A political party created for supporting the election of a mayor in Morterone cannot find a place in Wikipedia, in my opinion...

The source 1 and the article of which you posted the picture clearly define "Veneto per l’Autonomia" as a Gruppo consiliare, therefore "Veneto per l’Autonomia" is not a party (an encyclopedia shall be very precise on terminology). Sources 3, 4 and 5 don't say that Baggio was president of "Veneto per l’Autonomia" (they don't even say if he was part of it...).

All in all, it seems to me that "Veneto per l’Autonomia" was just a group of three persons, which were elected in Veneto's regional parliament under a different party (Tosi List for Veneto), then merged in Forza Italia, without presenting at an election under the name "Veneto per l’Autonomia" (for the records, the name used after the merge with Forza Italia was "FORZA ITALIA - AUTONOMIA PER IL VENETO" - Autonomy for Veneto, not Veneto for Autonomy..) P1221 (talk) 10:18, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry for two inaccurate infos I wrote above: first, Caon was member of the Chamber of Deputies since joining VpA for five years, not seven; second, Baggio was not the party's president.

It is unfortunately impossible to find local newspapers of 2017 or 2018, but everything that is included in the article is correct and, as I have shown, more infos and sources could be added. VpA has been active for five years and it is still active now. There is no doubt, per sources, that it was established by three people: Conte, Caon and Baggio. Finally, it does not really matter how you want to call it (party, group, grouping, etc.), as it is clearly relevant for this encylopedia. I disagree that VpA is not a political party, but why should elective assembly groups excluded from Wikipedia? VpA has enough relevance, sources and history for having an article of its own, otherwise it is surely better to merge it with Tosi List for Veneto instead of simply deleting it. --Checco (talk) 13:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Assembly groups can be included in Wikipedia, as long as they meet notability guidelines, like for parties. And in any case, it is necessary to answer the following question: Did "Veneto per l’Autonomia" something notable enough for deserving its own article in Wikipedia? (and no, "it exists/existed" is not a valid answer). P1221 (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Tosi List for Veneto, as per arguments made above. Yakme (talk) 09:04, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Tosi List for Veneto, as per Scia Della Cometa's comments. P1221 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Is there support for the redirect to Tosi List for Veneto suggestion?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:56, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Personally, it seems to me that the consensus goes in this direction.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.