Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TCEC Season 16

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Restart individually. This is too complex for a bulk nomination, renominate 1 at a time please so there is time to look at sources offered Spartaz ^Humbug! 23:15, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TCEC Season 16

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Previous consensus from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TCEC Season 21 show that the articles on all the individual TCEC seasons violate numerous Wikipedia policies, such as WP:NOR, WP:GNG, WP:NOTWEBHOST, WP:SELFPUBLISH, WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:DUE, and so forth, and so aren't notable enough to be on Wikipedia. B2TF (talk) 18:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because of the reasons listed above:

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per MaxBrowne2 in the other AfD. All or nothing. If we delete the S21 and S22 articles, we should delete all the other articles as well, including the ones that did get mention in other media. Banedon (talk) 02:06, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not Wikipedia policy to delete articles about subjects covered in reliable third party sources just because other related articles might not have the same coverage. Please see WP:AON Samboy (talk) 04:39, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given the outcome of the last AfD, did you try to just redirect? In any case, redirect unless one of these can be shown to meet the GNG. Hobit (talk) 04:44, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The proposer of the last AfD made a fairly strong case in that AfD that TCEC Season 14 through TCEC Season 20 were notable enough to be included in Wikipedia, which is why they didn't include those articles in the last AfD. There was an IP address who argued against the proposer and said that none of TCEC Season 14 through TCEC Season 20 were notable, but the arguments of that IP address are wrong, as according to WP:PRIMARY Matthew Sadler's, Guy Haworth's, and Nelson Hernandez's articles are allowed precisely because they are published in the reputable journal ICGA Journal. In addition, Matthew Sadler's two articles about TCEC Season 21 in the New in Chess Yearbook [1] and the New in Chess Magazine 2022/1 [2] are valid sources for TCEC Season 21 because of WP:PRIMARY as well, since New in Chess is a reputable publication, which with the other sources found such as [3] means that TCEC Season 21 should never have been deleted and redirected in the first place. 96.63.208.23 (talk) 10:00, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per Hobit. Pavlor (talk) 11:02, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep While WP:THREE is not Wikipedia policy per se, finding three third party links is a strong indication of notability: 1) G. Haworth; N. Hernandez (2019). "TCEC14: the 14th top chess engine championship" (PDF). ICGA Journal. 41 (3). International Computer Games Association Journal: 143–151. doi:10.3233/ICG-190117. Retrieved 27 November 2020. 2) Sadler, Mathtew (7 November 2019). "The TCEC14 Computer Chess Superfinal: a perspective". ICGA Journal. 41 (3): 152. doi:10.3233/ICG-190116. (note: Different DOI, different article) 3) https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/tcec-season-14-superfinal-2019/ published by chess24.com. While three is enough, I haven’t seen a compelling case for why Chessdom doesn’t help establish notability, e.g. "TCEC Season 14 – the 14th Top Chess Engine Championship". Chessdom. 12 March 2019. (that’s four) "Stockfish continues to dominate computer chess, wins TCEC S14". Chessdom. 1 March 2019. (that’s five) etc. As an aside, The Chess Programming Wiki covers this event too but its coverage is not as good as what I see here on the Wiki. Samboy (talk) 02:49, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The argument made against Chessdom on the other AfD by the proposer essentially says that "Chessdom sponsors TCEC so isn't independent enough to be used as a source for TCEC seasons". The same argument in association football would read "Etihad Airways sponsors Manchester City F.C. so isn't independent enough to be used as a source for Manchester City", and "Papa John's sponsors the EFL Trophy so isn't independent enough to be used as a source for the EFL Trophy". I'll let people come to their own conclusion as to whether this is a a strong enough case against Chessdom. I don't really care since one does not need Chessdom to prove the notability of these articles. 96.63.208.23 (talk) 08:46, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep and Restore TCEC Sesaon 21: Unlike the case for the other AfD for TCEC Season 21 and TCEC Season 22, Matthew Sadler was not involved in TCEC in TCEC Season 20 and prior. That automatically makes Matthew Sadler's articles in the ICGA Journal reliable secondary sources, which are already provided in the articles. Additionally, as stated in the other AfD by Skiminki, Matthew Sadler's book The Silicon Road to Chess Improvement [4] contains information about TCEC Season 17, TCEC Season 18, TCEC Season 19, and TCEC Season 20, and since we have established that Matthew Sadler is a reliable secondary source for seasons prior to season 21, that provides us with a second reliable source. While Nelson Hernandez is involved in TCEC, since the articles are published in the reputable journal ICGA Journal, the articles by Guy Haworth and Nelson Hernandez can be used as a source according to WP:PRIMARY (in contrast to what an IP address in the last AfD was claiming). That alone is enough to establish notability of every single one of these seasons. In addition, TCEC Season 20's article also already has a source from a local Philippines news source in Panay called Panay News [5], which is independent of TCEC. These articles are all better sourced and have more content than i.e. Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2020, Steinitz Memorial, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Chess Championship yet we don't see any AfD discussions about whether the article on Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2020 or Steinitz Memorial or Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Chess Championship should be deleted. Furthermore, precisely because of WP:PRIMARY, the New in Chess Yearbook [6] article on TCEC Season 21 by Matthew Sadler can be used as a source in TCEC Season 21, as well as the article about the TCEC Season 21 WCC bonus by Matthew Sadler in the New in Chess Magazine 2022/1 [7], as New in Chess is a reputable source. This coupled with this [8] from the Evanston Round Table and a few other sources already available (such as [9] and [10] by chess24 and [11] by lichess) means that TCEC Season 21 is notable enough to have its own article and should never have been deleted. 96.63.208.23 (talk) 08:18, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep: Wikipedia was set up for the conservation of knowledge not the destruction of the availablility of it. TCEC is the most notable in its niche. oscar (talk) 19:48, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural close. This is a multi-article nomination; but discussion has mainly centered on the sourcing for only a select few of the seven nominated articles. As such, most of the keep comments have not addressed the scope of the nomination and there isn’t really a convincing consensus that specifically looks at all seven articles individually. Discussion has had little participation; probably because it is a bundled AFD which makes reviewing complicated. Given the evidence of some independent coverage in relation to TCEC season 16 (and some for Seasons 20 and 21) as mentioned above; there appears to be a potentially convincing argument for keeping those three seasons. However, I am not seeing the same level of sourcing in all of the other seasons of TCEC in this multi-article nomination. Each season really needs to be evaluated independently. I suggest closing this nomination and re-nominating each article individually. That would allow for better community participation and would make determining a consensus less complicated. 4meter4 (talk) 12:02, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seasons ~~16, 20, and 21~~14, 17, 18, 19, and 20 can be closed as keep: Reliable third party sources independent of the subject have been found. The other seasons can be closed as "no consensus". Re-nomination should be done on a case by case basis. Samboy (talk) 04:35, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Season 21 was already voted to be redirected to the main TCEC article at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TCEC Season 21. User:Samboy's vote found sources for TCEC Season 14, not TCEC Season 16. 96.63.208.22 (talk) 05:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other commenters found third party stuff for seasons 17-20. I meant season 14, not 16. Samboy (talk) 06:09, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The issue with the original TCEC Season 21 article is that it really should have been split into separate articles about each individual event in TCEC Season 21: i.e. TCEC Leagues Season 21, TCEC Cup 9, TCEC Swiss 2, and TCEC FRC 4. The TCEC Leagues Season 21 has notability established on this page, while none of the other events in TCEC Season 21 have any reliable sources. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for TCEC Season 15 include

Sadler, Mathtew (7 November 2019). "The TCEC15 Computer Chess Superfinal: a perspective". ICGA Journal. 41 (3): 164-167. doi:10.3233/ICG-190112.

G. Haworth; N. Hernandez (2019). "TCEC15: the 15th top chess engine championship". ICGA Journal. 41 (3). International Computer Games Association Journal: 153–163. doi:10.3233/ICG-190115. Retrieved 27 November 2020.

[12]

[13]

Sources for TCEC Season 16 include

Sadler, Mathtew (6 February 2020). "The TCEC16 Computer Chess Superfinal: a perspective". ICGA Journal. 41 (4): 253-258. doi:10.3233/ICG-190123.

G. Haworth; N. Hernandez (February 2020). "TCEC16: the 15th top chess engine championship". ICGA Journal. 41 (4). International Computer Games Association Journal: 241–252. doi:10.3233/ICG-190122. S2CID 212566494. Retrieved 27 November 2020.

Including the chessdom articles on both seasons [18] [19], by User:Samboy's requirements, both TCEC Season 15 and TCEC Season 16 are notable. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. This is interesting and well written OR but does not belong in Wikipedia. Springnuts (talk) 11:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete these are just box scores. Individual TCEC "Seasons" aren't noteworthy, and aren't the subject of substantial independent coverage. Some of the individual seasons could be mentioned on the main TCEC article, but many don't even need that. We don't even need the redirects - they are more promotional than useful. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 16:39, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2020 and Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2021 are box scores as well, and less reliably sourced than any of the individual TCEC Seasons nominated here. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect this article as well as all of the other listed articles. As much as I am a fan of TCEC, its individual seasons are not notable. If anyone wants information about TCEC seasons, they can very easily go to TCEC's own wiki. ShuffleboardJerk (talk) 10:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- These articles are all more reliably sourced than Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2020 or Tata Steel Chess Tournament 2021. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:26, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep At least some appear to be notable. And WP:AGF only takes us so far. The new account which started the previous AFD has stopped editing. And the account that started this AFD was created one day after the previous AFD was closed. I would like a little more scrutiny before we delete these articles. This mass nomination is tainted and unsuitable. Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think the nominator of this AfD User:B2TF is the same person as the nominator of the last AfD, because the nominator of the last AfD specifically said in that AfD discussion that TCEC seasons 14-20 were notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. User:B2TF might be the same person as Special:Contributions/130.126.255.139 though as that IP address was the one arguing on the other AfD that the TCEC Seasons 14-20 were not notable. On the other hand, it might simply be that User:B2TF looked at the last AfD discussion and jumped to conclusions regarding the rest of the TCEC seasons, without properly checking for sources to see whether they are notable or not. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Special:Contributions/130.126.255.139 geolocates to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and so really should be tagged with Template:Shared IP edu.^[1] 96.63.208.26 (talk) 15:22, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Tagged. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed that the last number in my IP address changes every few days for some reason. All the 96.63.208.XX IP addresses on this discussion are the same person (me). I live in an apartment so the 96.63.208.XX addresses are the IP addresses my landlord's ISP provides to everybody living in this apartment complex. Which resident in my apartment has which address seems to change from day to day. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 14:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is called called IP address#Dynamic IP, there's a template Template:Dynamic IP for that. 96.63.208.26 (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Considering this AfD entry is now three days overdue, and has far too much discussion for a relist, I suggest the closing admin just close this as “No consensus” and a note for the nominator to only list one article at a time for deletion (linking to other deletion discussions as needed) Samboy (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

^ "IP range details · 130.126.0.0/16 · AS38 · University of Illinois".

[1] "IP range details · 130.126.0.0/16 · AS38 · University of Illinois".

[1]