Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TCEC Season 21

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Top Chess Engine Championship. Policy-based discussion is against keeping. There are strong arguments here that the individual seasons of this chess engine competition are not covered in sufficient detail by independent reliable sources to warrant separate articles. There is however no consensus as regards deletion, redirection or merging. Redirection is a compromise, allowing editors to decide what if anything is worth merging from the history. Sandstein 12:23, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TCEC Season 21

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Not notable enough to be an article on Wikipedia; it violates WP:GNG and WP:SELFPUBLISH. Most of the sources are from the TCEC wiki run by TCEC. The other sources are from Chessdom, which sponsors TCEC, GM Matthew Sadler, who helped in running TCEC Season 21 by creating the book used in the TCEC SuFi, the author of the Seer engine that participated in TCEC this season and the github of the Stockfish engines that participated in TCEC this season. Furthemore, the source from GM Matthew Sadler is from Youtube and the source from the Seer author is from Imgur, both websites hosting user-generated content and thus violating WP:USERGENERATED. Checking to see if there is any coverage in TCEC Season 21 in reliable secondary sources, the only two results in Google News about Season 21 talk about one specific game from the season, and so really belong in the Notable Games section of main TCEC article rather than here. No reason for this article to exist. Redirecting to the main Top Chess Engine Championship article can also be considered. Paula Bradley (talk) 00:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating theis page because it suffer from the same problems as the article on TCEC Season 21:

I am also nominating the following related pages because they suffer from even worse problems than the article on TCEC Season 21, as they do not have any sources whatsoever apart from a link to the TCEC archive:

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I found a number of other independent third party sources for TCEC Season 21, which in addition to the two sources on Google News means that the article do not violate WP:GNG and WP:SELFPUBLISH. 96.63.208.23 (talk) 05:38, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Just took a look at the sources you added to the article, and the sources are by and large Youtube videos. Youtube videos are not reliable sources, according to WP:RSPYT, unless the video come from some notable and reliable news organisation such as NBC. Most of the other sources added, while coming from chesschest.com, are really just Youtube videos embedded into the article, whose other contents consists solely of the description section of the Youtube video copied word for word into the article, so once again, WP:RSPYT applies, and this article still violates WP:SELFPUBLISH and WP:GNG. Paula Bradley (talk) 07:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The situation with the articles on TCEC Season 21 and Season 22 is completely different from the articles on TCEC Season 14 to TCEC Season 20. In those articles, there is enough notability established in the articles, as there is a reference to multiple reliable third party sources, such as Guy Haworth and Nelson Hernandez's article on each TCEC tournament in the ICGA Journal. Matthew Sadler didn't start creating the book for the TCEC Superfinal until TCEC Season 21, so the articles he wrote about the TCEC retrospectives do count as a valid third party source for the TCEC Season 14 to TCEC Season 20 articles. And there is also plenty of news coverage in the previous TCEC seasons, such as this for TCEC Season 15. However, in contrast, there is virtually nothing reliable or noteworthy about TCEC Season 21 or TCEC Season 22 anywhere, and the same could be said about the early TCEC seasons from 10 years ago. No articles about TCEC Season 21 in scholarly journals, or news articles, et cetera. Only two blog posts talking about one game each in TCEC Season 21, which, as I said above, already has a home on the main TCEC article. Paula Bradley (talk) 07:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree about the previous seasons and Matthew Sadler's articles. Matthew Sadler's articles about TCEC are 1. only about the Superfinal, with the Premier Division only mentioned in a few articles in passing, so none of the divisions below the Superfinal are notable, and 2. published either on chessdom.com or on the main tcec-chess.com website, which means that they aren't independent enough sources according to your criteria. Some seasons such as TCEC Season 14 or TCEC Season 19 as a result just aren't notable enough for an article right now, because only one reliable independent secondary source (ICGA Journal) is not really enough to establish notability. It's the same reason why the Arimaa Challenge doesn't have its own article on Wikipedia, but is rather merged into the main article on Arimaa#Arimaa Challenge. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 06:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The TCEC Season 14 has this reliable independent secondary source [1], so I take back what I said about TCEC Season 14. However, chess24 only has news articles about TCEC season 14 and season 15, so my point still holds for the seasons between TCEC Season 16 and TCEC Season 19. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 09:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These two articles [2] and [3] mention TCEC Season 16 and TCEC Season 20 in passing, but don't go into any depth about the event itself. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 09:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This dissertation also references TCEC season 14, 15, and 16, but doesn't go into much detail about them. [4]. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 10:00, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This research paper [5] references the winners of TCEC seasons 1-7, but only in a footnote, which isn't enough to establish notability for those seasons. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 10:17, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to this article in the ICGA Journal: [6], one of the authors of every article about TCEC in the ICGA Journal, Nelson Hernandez, contributes the books for the lower divisions between TCEC season 9 and season 19. This means that if Matthew Sadler's sources from Season 21 aren't independent, then the ICGA Journal articles by Guy Haworth and Nelson Hernandez aren't independent for Season 14 to Season 19 either, and so don't count. Which means that Season 14 to season 19 aren't really notable either. And according to [7] Nelson Hernandez is also involved in TCEC Season 20, so the ICGA Journal article for TCEC Season 20 isn't independent either. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 10:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So in reality, neither of the self-published Matthew Sadler articles nor the Nelson Hernandez articles on the ICGA Journal are reliable independent secondary sources, and so the notability of all the TCEC season articles is up for question, not just the ones listed for deletion by the OP. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 10:36, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect, no evidence of any notability for e.g. the Season 22. Fram (talk) 08:13, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lean keep Disclaimer, I wrote most of the articles. I lean keep because:

Although it's not widely covered in chess media, I know for a fact that many GMs are following the games (in turn because the games feature very high-level chess - computers are already superhuman, and the competition games are run on very strong hardware). Hence previous season articles have directly quoted them [8]. There's more evidence of this from the way TCEC games are sometimes used to illustrate concepts, e.g. in the analysis of one of the games in this article, the author references a game from "TCEC 2019" to show why a particular line doesn't work.
I know Guy Haworth and Nelson Hernandez didn't write an article for the most recent season of the TCEC in the ICGA journal because Guy Haworth died recently. Nelson Hernandez is still alive, but he's indicated that he doesn't have chess knowledge (i.e. he's not a strong player); he only maintains an opening database.
In the same way I know Matthew Sadler didn't write an article about the Season 21 superfinal because he put all his time into a book on it. There are some sample pages here. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book so I can't write it into the article.
Finally, Season 22 doesn't have any coverage yet for obvious reasons - the top engines haven't played yet. As of time of writing League 3 is ending soon, so there'll be weeks more before the premier division and superfinal.

So I lean keep. I suppose one could delete the articles until the (I'd say inevitable) coverage shows up, but that 1) seems silly and 2) would put a tight deadline on writing things, since I'm pretty sure there's a page view spike during the superfinal.

PS, I'm going to notify WP:CHESS about this AfD.

Banedon (talk) 09:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

About the first bullet point:

"Although it's not widely covered in chess media, I know for a fact that many GMs are following the games (in turn because the games feature very high-level chess - computers are already superhuman, and the competition games are run on very strong hardware)." Unfortunately per Wikipedia policy, you'll need a reliable source saying that many GMs are following the tournament in season 21 and 22. Right now it's just your word vs the lack of reliable sources in the media.
"Hence previous season articles have directly quoted them [9]." That linked sentence needs a source, and it should have a source in this video from chess24 [10], as well as the TCEC Season 17 retrospective by Sadler, both of which I have inserted into the article there.
"There's more evidence of this from the way TCEC games are sometimes used to illustrate concepts, e.g. in the analysis of one of the games in this article, the author references a game from "TCEC 2019" to show why a particular line doesn't work." Single games being mentioned in an article don't warrant the creation of individual articles on TCEC seasons, just a particular entry in the Notable games section of the main TCEC article. (or not even that, there are plenty of games used to illustrate chess concepts out there in the world, but there isn't a article on every tournament from which the games are derived from).
In addition, if I remember correctly, Magnus Carlsen has mentioned in a stream archive on Youtube that grandmasters are following the games from the International Correspondence Chess Federation closely as well, for the same reason they follow TCEC, yet Wikipedia does not have any articles on individual ICCF seasons/tournaments, because there is no notable coverage of ICCF from reliable third party sources. TCEC in season 21 and season 22 in this case seems to be very similar to the ICCF, so unless more sources are found, the precedent is already set with individual ICCF seasons/tournaments not having their own Wikipedia articles.

About your third bullet point, can somebody with access to The Silicon Road to Chess Improvement confirm that the book talks about season 21? The sample pages do not make any mentions of Season 21 at all.

Your comment as a whole doesn't mention TCEC Seasons 1-4 at all. Without any other further sources for those articles, those seasons are probably still not notable enough to be placed on Wikipedia, even if additional sources are found for Season 21 and 22. Especially since it was Leela Chess Zero's popularity and participation that caused TCEC to become notable enough in the chess community back in season 14, rather than the niche competition in some backwater of the chess world that it was prior to Leela. Paula Bradley (talk) 15:38, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does not have any articles on individual ICCF seasons/tournaments, because there is no notable coverage of ICCF from reliable third party sources I don't think so. Wikipedia does not have any articles on individual ICCF seasons/tournaments because nobody has been interested enough to write an article for them, in turn because (I'm pretty confident) the pace is super slow and tournaments take years to finish. I am not going to debate you however, and will let the AfD run its course. Banedon (talk) 15:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit to add: it looks like Matthew Sadler wrote a section in New in Chess on S21 specifically. See sample pages, page 23. Banedon (talk) 11:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Finally, Season 22 doesn't have any coverage yet for obvious reasons - the top engines haven't played yet." Then the article on TCEC Season 22 fails WP:TOOSOON. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The TCEC S21 Superfinal has been covered by GM Sadler in the New In Chess yearbook, number 141, pages 23-34. I would consider that this qualifies for notability. Skiminki (talk) 21:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Skiminki: Thanks for the source, I've added it to the article. By the way, do you by any chance have a copy of Matthew Sadler's The Silicon Road to Chess Improvement, and if you do, could you confirm User:Banedon's statement above that the book also talks about Season 21? Paula Bradley (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't have the book yet (waiting for the Kindle edition), so I asked GM Sadler. He says that S21 was too late to make it in his book. However, his book has games from S20. I can add more detailed references once I have the book. He is also planning to write the TCEC article on S21 soon-ish. The writing is a bit delayed as he's been busy with other things as Banedon notes. What comes to S21 and S22 coverage, he has his Youtube channel accompanying the book with dozens of games covered ( https://www.youtube.com/c/SiliconRoadChess/playlists ). While the channel is not hugely popular--likely because it's quite advanced--it still indicates that the current TCEC seasons have relevance at the GM level. Skiminki (talk) 22:17, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, well then I don't think The Silicon Road to Chess Improvement could be used as a source for this article, although feel free to add it to the TCEC Season 17, TCEC Season 18, TCEC Season 19, and TCEC Season 20 articles. The sample pages from the book already have example games from the four seasons though. Paula Bradley (talk) 23:18, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Disclaimer about potential conflict of interest. Someone suspected this of me, so I probably should clarify. I'm a long-time TCEC follower, chat moderator, and I've provided some technical assistance over the years. I maintain a games archive. I'm not directly involved with the TCEC tournament organization, its decisions, participating engines, opening books, competition events and rules, etc. The reason I was able to get a quick answer from GM Sadler about what's in "Silicon Road" is because he happened to be in the chat. In hindsight, I should have mentioned this earlier. Skiminki (talk) 09:21, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - While I agree that the sourcing on these is weak, WP:SELFPUBLISH includes the following exception, which I believe applies here: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Regardless, computer chess is not a very controversial topic, so I'm not that worried about strictly adhering to the letter of the Verifiability policies. The articles are well-written and informative so I think I would rather err on the side of keeping them for such a borderline case. Nosferattus (talk) 23:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: For those who voted to keep, does that vote only pertain to the TCEC Season 21, or to TCEC Season 21 and TCEC Season 22 articles, or does the vote also pertain to TCEC Season 1, TCEC Season 2, TCEC Season 3, and TCEC Season 4 as well? Because those articles are even worse with citations and notability: apart from a one line sentence in the beginning of the articles, the articles on the first four seasons are just a list of tables with one source/external link linking to the TCEC archive. There might be articles about TCEC Season 21 and Season 22 by Matthew Sadler, New in Chess, the ICGA Journal, et cetera in the future, but has anybody written articles or produced content on Youtube about TCEC Season 1, Season 2, Season 3, and Season 4? Consensus might be building that TCEC Season 21 and TCEC Season 22 is borderline notable enough to be kept on Wikipedia, but no consensus has yet been developed for TCEC Season 1, TCEC Season 2, TCEC Season 3, and TCEC Season 4. Paula Bradley (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- My vote to keep was intended for Season 21 and onwards. While I do agree that S22 doesn't yet have great sourcing, it is likely to get reliable sources as the season progresses. With the on-going season, I would rather take the bit more conservative approach and only consider it for deletion once the season is over. And the same with future seasons. Skiminki (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- What comes to the early seasons, I have no strong opinion. If the pages must go, then I would suggest merging them as "TCEC early seasons" or so. The first article by Guy Haworth and Nelson Hernandez is for Season 10. The earliest Chessdom article is for Season 6. There exists annotated games by chess masters in the PGN format starting from Season 1, and the first GM-annotated game that I know of is from Season 2. However, these annotated PGNs are currently not publicly available as far as I know. I am planning to add these games in the official TCEC games archive at some point to preserve history. (The long-term archive is here: https://github.com/TCEC-Chess/tcecgames ) Skiminki (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - So some seasons are notable because a mainstream publication mentioned them, but others are not? All or nothing I say. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. GNG not met and no evidence the individual seasons are notable. The extensive lists of statistics have no place on Wikipedia; we are not a computer chess almanac. The separate season articles should be summarized up into a single article. Stifle (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwaiiplayer (talk) 16:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into a single article ("TCEC Seasons" or some such). There just aren't the sources available for each "season" at this time. Also would be okay with an article on 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 or something similar). Hobit (talk) 14:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into TCEC seasons and redirect. Expand them back when sources become available. On the one hand, this is the highest level of engine chess (a cross-section of computing, artificial intelligence, mathematics and chess), and it is non-profit/open source. On the other hand, because of undisclosed COI editors adding first hand accounts of literally EVERYTHING into these articles, they contain or constitute in their almost entirety, violations of our core content policies (WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV). Much of the content contained in these articles arguably are NOTWEBHOST violations. I would advise TCEC/TCEC supporters to copy the current versions of these articles into their own wiki, so no information is lost (information, I believe, is accurate but entirely unverifiable) and keep on Wikipedia only summaries supported by independent reliable sources. Not only is the current level of detail unverifiable, but it is likely to remain unverifiable in the future, as reliable secondary sources are unlikely to write or be able to write about these seasons in so much detail. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Top Chess Engine Championship: Any useful information should be added to the main page then redirect. Gusfriend (talk) 06:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. None of the articles have reliable independent secondary sources. Since Matthew Sadler's seems to be involved in TCEC, his article in the New In Chess Yearbook, which some people mentioned above, isn't a reliable independent secondary source either. Even if Sadler's article in the New In Chess Yearbook is a reliable independent secondary source, it only explains the TCEC season 21 superfinal, so everything apart from the TCEC season 21 superfinal would still have to be deleted for not being properly sourced. 130.126.255.139 (talk) 04:46, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all: per Stifle. ––FormalDude talk 13:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.