Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spacing Guild (3rd nomination)

Spacing Guild

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Lacks any reliable sourcing, and is almost entirely a plot summary. With the exception of this article (https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-foundation-spacers-guild-navigators-spice), all sources I found were low-quality Valnet sources. Industrial Insect (talk) 14:22, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, Literature, Film, and Popular culture. Industrial Insect (talk) 14:22, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Industrial Insect Comment Some sources were brought up in the last AfD just three months ago that resulted in a Keep consensus. I haven't reviewed them myself, but just making you aware in case you haven't seen them. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 14:45, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see that AfD until after I had opened this one, but even with the sources brought up I still believe the article isn't notable. 2 of them are Valnet churnalism, and the geopolitical article barely mentions the guild. Industrial Insect (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Draftify. Looks like there is discussion of it in academia. I agree with Industrial Insect that the article as it stands now is mostly a plot summary in the context of the Dune universe (and therefore the content is more suitable for a fandom wiki). TurboSuperA+_(connect) 15:06, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Industrial Insect:
- a) Lacks any reliable sourcing: What about the 16-page-chapter in The Science of Dune listed in the article's references?
- b) What about WP:6MONTHS?
- c) Did you check out the sources already listed at the top of the Talk page? If you've overlooked both them and the old AfDs, that seems a lot like step B.4 of WP:BEFORE has been skipped. All those steps are there for a reason, to avoid wasting editors' time. Daranios (talk) 15:17, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
a) I haven't read it. Seems fine, but one source isn't enough to carry an entire article

b) I accept full responsibility for that. I was completely unaware of the previous AfD, and I failed to check the edit history.

c) Duneinfo is a fansite and as such is not appropriate for establishing notability. I can't comment on "Paul's Empire: Imperialism and Assemblage Theory in Frank Herbert's Dune" yet because the link gives me a 404, but based on the previous AfD it looks like a plot summary. Industrial Insect (talk) 15:29, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here or here would be alternative links. Daranios (talk) 17:31, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I skimmed through the article, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but it seems like the article doesn't provide much analysis on the Guild itself. It's only really mentioned during the plot summarization. It's definitely a good article, but it's not particularly useful as a source here. Industrial Insect (talk) 17:49, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we are getting into details here, but my 2 cents here: Not sure if the importance of the Spacing Guild and its bureaucratic structure as the real power in the empire is still plot summary or already analysis. But like below, brief but non-trivial analysis of the Spacing Guild being an expression for capitalism: "Moreover, the capitalistic nature of the spice trade and the Spacing Guild are ripe for an analysis based upon the issues of capitalism and globalization discussed in Empire." Would be interesting if someone followed up on Rudd's suggestion of analysis. Google Scholar shows two hits among the six citations of Rudd's paper, both paywalled. There's some preview here, e.g. p 57 (more on pages 20, 72, 94, but no preview). Daranios (talk) 18:22, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just collecting, "Epic World-Building: Names and Cultures in Dune" has brief but non-trivial analysis. Daranios (talk) 17:41, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also skimmed, (take with a dose of salt), there is one sentence of analysis where the author compares the Guild to those that existed during medieval Europe. Industrial Insect (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's what I've meant, too, and how that image feeds back into the atmosphere/perception of the Dune universe. Daranios (talk) 18:22, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another very relevant web article, not Valnet this time: Denis Villeneuve's Dune Movies Never Got These Big Villains From the Books Right. Daranios (talk) 18:25, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Collider is actually owned by Valnet. They acquired it in 2020. Industrial Insect (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Drat, I did not know that. In fact, I though I remembered it being list among reliable sources, but can't find that now. At least it was considered rather reliable in one discussion in 2021. In case you happen to have something more tangible policywise, please let me know, but it's only a sidenote here anyway. Daranios (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Daranios A recent consensus at Wikipedia:FILM determined a new Valnet consensus which deprecated the usability of opinion pieces, which states that they should be avoided. Granted the Wikipedia:VG consensus still says they can be used so long as they don't get counted toward notability, but I do hope it clarifies things a bit Valnet-wise, especially in Collider's case, as WP:FILM specifies Collider outright among the listed sources. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 22:48, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]