Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shayan Italia
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. NW (Talk) 03:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Shayan Italia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
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Subject fails to meet inclusion criteria laid out at WP:GNG, WP:MUSIC, WP:ARTIST, WP:ANYBIO, et al. L0b0t (talk) 14:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Has coverage in independent sources per Hindu, Guadian, Times, a search of Google News turns up more reliable sources. Hekerui (talk) 15:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All coverage is trivial. Coverage of subject has not been shown to meet any of our inclusion criteria. Subject has yet to release any albums, is not considered "important and widely cited by peers," has never "received a notable award or honor, or... been often nominated for one," has not "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field," and fails all 12 points laid out at WP:MUSIC. L0b0t (talk) 16:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum - The 4 sources in the article are as follows: Guardian- (Aug 2007) a blurb about the upcoming (Nov 2007) release of subject's 1st album (as of Sep. 2009 album has yet to be released), Times- (Mar 2008) brief mention (amongst a larger review of other artists) of subject failing to find success in music biz., Hindu- (Oct 2007) brief bio and mention that subject's song "made it to the top ten on Britain’s popular TV airplay Music Chart," Presswire- (no date given but press release refers to 2008 in future tense)distributes press release from subject himself. All, I posit, trivial mentions. L0b0t (talk) 16:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree, there are five articles in reliable sources that focus on Italia, not trivial mentions. Hekerui (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum - The 4 sources in the article are as follows: Guardian- (Aug 2007) a blurb about the upcoming (Nov 2007) release of subject's 1st album (as of Sep. 2009 album has yet to be released), Times- (Mar 2008) brief mention (amongst a larger review of other artists) of subject failing to find success in music biz., Hindu- (Oct 2007) brief bio and mention that subject's song "made it to the top ten on Britain’s popular TV airplay Music Chart," Presswire- (no date given but press release refers to 2008 in future tense)distributes press release from subject himself. All, I posit, trivial mentions. L0b0t (talk) 16:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- All coverage is trivial. Coverage of subject has not been shown to meet any of our inclusion criteria. Subject has yet to release any albums, is not considered "important and widely cited by peers," has never "received a notable award or honor, or... been often nominated for one," has not "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field," and fails all 12 points laid out at WP:MUSIC. L0b0t (talk) 16:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. -- -SpacemanSpiffCalvin‡Hobbes 16:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 00:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 00:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The coverage in the several sources cited in the article goes well beyond trivial. Listing those notability criteria that he doesn't meet is irrelevant since he meets both WP:GNG and the first criterion of WP:BAND.--Michig (talk) 11:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC) There are also plenty of additional sources, e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7].--Michig (talk) 11:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC) And then there's the performance and interview on Frost Over The World.--Michig (talk) 12:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - The inclusion guidelines at WP:MUSIC are quite specific. For instance, "two or more albums on a major label." (There are other ways to qualify for an article, but this one is addressed to whether the person has a known quantity of musical output). Based on a quick web search I don't see any evidence that Shayan Italia has yet released even a single album, so I don't think he meets WP:MUSIC. Note the listing at amazon.co.uk for the 'Deliverance' album, which shows it as 'currently unavailable.' This suggests to me that it was never released, though he might have mailed out advance copies to a few people. The Amazon listing does not give the name of any record label who might have issued it, so 'major label' does not seem like a possibility. If he can ever get his stuff published, we could reconsider the matter later. EdJohnston (talk) 15:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The subject seems to fall under the people famous for one event guideline. All the sources talk about his eBay sale and his supposed bright future in the music (which has yet to materialize) some sources mention the imminent (Nov 2007) album release but (as I said above) it is now Sep 2009 and album has yet to be released. None of the sources provided establish a notability that clears the hurdle at the relevant guidelines, all mentions of subject are trivial. Subject still fails WP:GNG, WP:MUSIC, WP:ARTIST, WP:ANYBIO, WP:BAND, et al. When this fellow actually releases an album, and if that album is critically acclaimed, then he might warrant an article but now, not so much. L0b0t (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Two albums on a major label is only one of the criteria of WP:MUSIC, and it doesn't matter how many criteria this article fails so long as it passes one of them, which it does - the first and most important one. The argument that Amazon shows that the album was never released is nonsense. See this which states that the album was released on 12 Nov 2007 by Universal Records and is in stock.--Michig (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I pointed out that the 'Deliverance' album is shown as unavailable. You've properly countered with an another Amazon listing suggesting that 'Shayan Italia' exists as an album, and is stated as being released by Universal. Amazon does sometimes list self-published items, so a positive result may need confirmation. If such a CD exists as a genuine Universal release, can anyone confirm that fact from the Universal catalog? Can anyone provide a reliable source that shows what tracks were on the album? Since Shayan Italia seems very good at publicizing his activities, why is information about this alleged album so hard to find? Do any of our editors actually own this album? EdJohnston (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Haha Ed, browse through the article's history. IF those albums exist, then two of the article's contributors would have a copy, but they're the same editor really AND they are banned. Seriously, the main (first) contributor, IMO, is the subject or his brother.I've just searched the Universal catalog (www.umusic.com--right?) and there's no Shayah Italia. I am somewhat puzzled about these albums since the orginal (bloated) entry never even mentioned it--see this version for instance (in the edit summary, editor is yelling at me). Drmies (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Following up on the search of the Universal site for the conjectured album by Shayan Italia, I observe that there is no 'Shayan Italia' shown under S at this page at universalmusic.com. EdJohnston (talk) 04:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My guess is that he self-published some albums and sold them through Amazon. He has most likely been negotiating with record companies and may have optimistically pre-announced that he would be released on Universal. That's the only way I can account for the Amazon listing for an album titled 'Shayan Italia' found by User:Michig. That entry has an ASIN number (Amazon's stock number) but the entry does not offer a number in the Universal catalog. EdJohnston (talk) 04:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Following up on the search of the Universal site for the conjectured album by Shayan Italia, I observe that there is no 'Shayan Italia' shown under S at this page at universalmusic.com. EdJohnston (talk) 04:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Haha Ed, browse through the article's history. IF those albums exist, then two of the article's contributors would have a copy, but they're the same editor really AND they are banned. Seriously, the main (first) contributor, IMO, is the subject or his brother.I've just searched the Universal catalog (www.umusic.com--right?) and there's no Shayah Italia. I am somewhat puzzled about these albums since the orginal (bloated) entry never even mentioned it--see this version for instance (in the edit summary, editor is yelling at me). Drmies (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I pointed out that the 'Deliverance' album is shown as unavailable. You've properly countered with an another Amazon listing suggesting that 'Shayan Italia' exists as an album, and is stated as being released by Universal. Amazon does sometimes list self-published items, so a positive result may need confirmation. If such a CD exists as a genuine Universal release, can anyone confirm that fact from the Universal catalog? Can anyone provide a reliable source that shows what tracks were on the album? Since Shayan Italia seems very good at publicizing his activities, why is information about this alleged album so hard to find? Do any of our editors actually own this album? EdJohnston (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Two albums on a major label is only one of the criteria of WP:MUSIC, and it doesn't matter how many criteria this article fails so long as it passes one of them, which it does - the first and most important one. The argument that Amazon shows that the album was never released is nonsense. See this which states that the album was released on 12 Nov 2007 by Universal Records and is in stock.--Michig (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The subject seems to fall under the people famous for one event guideline. All the sources talk about his eBay sale and his supposed bright future in the music (which has yet to materialize) some sources mention the imminent (Nov 2007) album release but (as I said above) it is now Sep 2009 and album has yet to be released. None of the sources provided establish a notability that clears the hurdle at the relevant guidelines, all mentions of subject are trivial. Subject still fails WP:GNG, WP:MUSIC, WP:ARTIST, WP:ANYBIO, WP:BAND, et al. When this fellow actually releases an album, and if that album is critically acclaimed, then he might warrant an article but now, not so much. L0b0t (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. I have very mixed feelings here. On the one hand, much of the coverage is entirely trivial and relates only to that one thing, the dude selling part of his future profits on Ebay. On the other, at least there IS coverage. But then, there are too many questions here about these records, for instance--surely if the guy had released records, or at least one, on a major label, then we wouldn't have to be searching all over the place. (I think I said this before, above: in the earlier versions of the article, the author/subject made no mention whatsoever of an earlier album, only of the upcoming album.) I have spent a considerable amount of time and energy on the article (on policing it, if you will), at first in an attempt to make it look presentable and thus keepable, but I see now that it should be for nothing. Delete. Drmies (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong keep this appears to be a very well referenced article. Editor above provided more references also. Ikip (talk) 17:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I did, as a good-faith attempt--but I do not believe that these establish notability. A note about YouTube, a note about Ebay, and one article from an Indian paper--that's simply not enough, in my opinion. Drmies (talk) 23:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep have heard of him, references points towards notability. there is to mutch pointing to strong notability that i even question why this article was put up for possible deletion in the first place..--Judo112 (talk) 19:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I beg to differ on the idea that there are things here pointing to "strong notability," and I'm sure the nominator feels the same way. Drmies (talk) 23:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Skomorokh 00:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - notable for the eBay story which I remember reading about, and clearly appears to be doing well on the music side as well. Furthermore, article has improved.Tris2000 (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep - notable, well referenced, and not another run of the mill article.. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 15:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Article has not improved, subject still fails any and all relevant inclusion criteria: WP:GNG, WP:MUSIC, WP:ARTIST, WP:BAND, and WP:ANYBIO. Subject has never released an album, cited sources all speak of album's imminent (November 2007) release, yet it never happened. The eBay incident falls under WP:ONEEVENT and all the sources cited thus far include only trivial mentions of the subject in regards to the eBay incident. So far, no one opining "keep" has based their reasoning on anything other than WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IVEHEARDOFTHAT. L0b0t (talk) 16:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The cited stuff in the career section is in reliable sources and as a whole goes beyond liking/knowing the subject imo. Hekerui (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Your opinion ('imo') would be more convincing if you had made any response at all to any of the new information added to the AfD since your original post. EdJohnston (talk) 17:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't be belittling. Instead of posting endlessly here I tried to improve the article. Hekerui (talk) 17:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Your opinion ('imo') would be more convincing if you had made any response at all to any of the new information added to the AfD since your original post. EdJohnston (talk) 17:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The cited stuff in the career section is in reliable sources and as a whole goes beyond liking/knowing the subject imo. Hekerui (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Article has not improved, subject still fails any and all relevant inclusion criteria: WP:GNG, WP:MUSIC, WP:ARTIST, WP:BAND, and WP:ANYBIO. Subject has never released an album, cited sources all speak of album's imminent (November 2007) release, yet it never happened. The eBay incident falls under WP:ONEEVENT and all the sources cited thus far include only trivial mentions of the subject in regards to the eBay incident. So far, no one opining "keep" has based their reasoning on anything other than WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IVEHEARDOFTHAT. L0b0t (talk) 16:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Week Keep Subject meets WP:GNG and
arguably WP:MUSICBIO.- (see update below) He has released at least one album, Shayan Italia on the Universal label, and possibly a second (This Guardian article says that Universal is to release Deliverence; although Amazon lists the album under FM Publishing Ltd label. This article says that a single from the album was distributed by Universal.) At least one single charted on the TV Airplay Music Chart
- There is ample independent coverage of the artist in mainstream media: The Times, The Guardian, The Asian News, The Hindu, Press Trust of India, Indian Express etc. Note that most of these articles are biographical, and don't just mention Italia in passing.
- Abecedare (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Update Looking into it deeper, it seems that Italia's albums are on the FM Publishing Ltd label, and are only (possibly) distributed by Universal. This website lists Dolly Italia as the contact person for the FM label, and the label's website www.fmpublishing.co.uk is a deadlink - so its is quite likely that the music was self-published and the subject does not meet WP:MUSICBIO in that respect. GNG may still apply though. Abecedare (talk) 01:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per guideline. Coverage in reliable sources is sufficient to be called "significant", and is on several topics, so ONEVENT doesn't apply. Bongomatic 01:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.