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Oumar Samba Sy

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Oumar Samba Sy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Subject does not meet the WP:SPORTSCRIT due to a lack of WP:SIGCOV. PROD was declined so taking this to AFD. Let'srun (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and Olympics. Let'srun (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. We need to use common sense. Sy was the first Olympian in the history of Mauritania. He was the first flagbearer, the second flagbearer, and a medalist at major international competitions such as the African Championships. That's actually surprising for his country, which has historically been very poor in international sports. Being the first and second flagbearer as well as the first Mauritanian Olympian, and a continental medalist, is a historic accomplishment that is virtually certain to have been covered significantly. If there was any sportsperson covered at all in the 1980s in the nation, it would be him. We have not checked even a single newspaper in the history of the country; in fact, much of their media today remains offline. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Its common sense that he would have been covered for his historic achievements in his country's sporting history. I'll see if I can contact any Mauritanian newspapers to get further information on him. But either way, I'd like to note that notability is a guideline: Editors should generally follow it, though exceptions may apply. Does deleting one of the greatest sportspeople in the history of a nation really improve Wikipedia? I don't think so. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:19, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd also note that WP:BLP is important to note here as well. We have zero secondary sources for this subject, and the burden of evidence that this subject received coverage is on the editors advocating to keep the article. So far, zero IRS have been supplemented, but I am open to reconsidering should it be provided. Let'srun (talk) 01:41, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - As has been discussed many times now, there is no evidence that Mauritanians actually care that much about their country's performance at the Olympic games. Indeed, there are a number of indicators that they don't, not least of which was the lack of any coverage of the 2016, 2020, and 2024 Olympics by the state news agency.
We have also now discussed multiple times the media environment in Mauritania in the 1980s: it was a dictatorship where the only national press was a couple of heavily censored state-controlled newspapers serving an audience of fewer than ~700k literate Mauritanians. The widespread sports coverage that US-based commentators who have never lived in a dictatorship seem to imagine as being universal did not exist in the Mauritania of the 1980's.
We have also discussed the ways in which the "common sense" analysis that some want to apply is just the "every Olympian is notable" standard that was rejected in WP:NSPORTS2022 restated in different words. That applies here also - being the first participant is also a participation-based standard, being a standard bearer of a small team is also a participation-based standard.
Beannie repeatedly attacks the lack of searching of offline databases: the answer is for him to go and do it. I have gone far beyond the requirements of WP:BEFORE by searching Eastmain's MENA database in both Roman characters and Arabic. I also searched The Historical Dictionary of Mauritania - a book of several hundred pages which, if the subject of this article were even nearly as notable as made out above would almost certainly mention him, but doesn't.
The subject of this article simply isn't notable based on the evidence we have to hand. We should not have an article about them until we can show (not just assert: show) that they are notable by finding the missing SIGCOV. FOARP (talk) 13:06, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
North Korea is a dictatorship, yet they still cover their athletes significantly. Iran's media is state-controlled, yet they still cover their athletes significantly. Niger is controlled by a military dictatorship, yet I still found coverage of their top athletes from recently. I have never seen a country that didn't cover sports. Never. Whether Mauritania's news agency has covered the Olympics is not what matters: what matters is whether there is coverage of sports at all in Mauritania, which there is. If there was any sportsperson at all covered in Mauritania in the 1980s, it would be Sy. The Olympics specifically may not very well-followed, but apparently wrestling is popular there, and he has the greatest African Games finish for his country ever (they've never medaled, he came fourth). Being chosen for the honor of flagbearer is not "participation-based" nor an "every Olympian is notable argument", nor is being a medalist at major international tournaments either of those arguments. The "MENA database" contains no papers even close to where Sy is from. Nor does that dictionary mention sports at all. I do not have the ability to travel to Mauritania to search archives. We don't need to be ridiculous and require that for him to have an article. Notability is a guideline best treated with common sense (per notability); it is very obvious he is notable. In what way does deleting this – the greatest African Games finisher for Mauritania ever in any sport – improve the encyclopedia? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"If there was any sportsperson at all covered in Mauritania in the 1980s, it would be Sy" - I'm going to say it definitely wouldn't be, because the national sport of Mauritania is not wrestling, it's football. But this requires not just blindly insisting that everywhere is like Delaware. FOARP (talk) 16:48, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: A source analysis would be helpful at this relisting.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:13, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Currently, the only sources are SportsReference, which is a database, and Olympedia, which is owned by the IOC and as such isn't independent. Let'srun (talk) 00:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, not sure what the closer is expecting us to say here. We've analysed the sources already above, they're the same ones that we've analysed in a large number of discussions many times and which were the primary subject of WP:NSPORTS2022. Nobody is claiming that they have even identified anything specific other than this, only vague hand-waves at WP:MUSTBESOURCES, the likelihood of this being true is what we've discussed in detail because that was the only argument being made for keeping this article.
I'm sorry if we're boring closers and not making things easy for them. I sorry if the same people keep showing up again and again. If these discussions keep falling in to the same holes and being essentially the same, it's because the articles are essentially the same because of how they were created: what more is it that is there to say than this? FOARP (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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