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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 23:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistic capabilities of modern world leaders

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Linguistic capabilities of modern world leaders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

An indiscriminate list of world leaders and the languages they speak. What languages should be included? Which leaders should be included? Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete This appears to be nothing but trivia, and much of it is unreferenced (eg, to whom is it 'unknown' whether the leader speaks various languages?). The decision to limit the range of languages to Japanese and eight European languages (including Swedish for some reason) is also rather odd and highlights the pointlessness of such a list. Nick-D (talk) 22:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I wouldn't call this an indiscriminate list. Which leaders should be included? - The head of state of any nation. What languages should be included? - The 6 official languages of the United Nations, Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish. In addition two 6 columns for those 6 languages, I would add a 7th column to note the leader's native language. It would also be kept up-to-date with the current head of state for any given nation. An 8th column could also be added to note any additional languages the head of state speaks. I would also change "modern world leaders" to "current heads of state" in the title.  LinguistAtLarge  22:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Surely that would just result in a long list of political leaders who spoke none of the UN's six official languages, and a sea of red (or one colour) in the table? --Patar knight - chat/contributions 23:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Linguist. flaminglawyerc 23:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unreliable inconsistent sourcing. Probably not possible to do properly without OR, DGG (talk) 03:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep - very interesting concept; execution needs to address some concerns: (1) How is this table not going to become huge and unwieldy? Who will be excluded, and why? (2) How, really, are these "capabilities" verifiable? Even if someone is said to "speak" two languages, how is that determined? In other words, don't we need variables like fluency, reading vs. speaking vs. writing, etc? And doesn't that bring the problem back around to one of a potentially huge and unwieldy table? (3) What is the context for this list? There's no introduction or framing-- just a table. I am saying "keep" in spite of these concerns, because I believe they could all be addressed with improvements to the article.Jlg4104 (talk) 03:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep leaders who speak only their native tongue shouldn't go into the main table. They can be organized differently. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - pretty much per DGG. Trusilver 09:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 12:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It is fun and somewhat interesting. However it is not an encyclopedia article so it would be better to post it elsewhere on the Internet and give an external link in Multilingualism. I also suspect that part of the purpose is for citizens of one nation to be able to say, "See how great our leader is. He can speak 5 languages. Your's can only speak one." Also the Pope is included. How about the 14th Dalai Lama. At least 3 or 4 I would think. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. The Pope is far and away the most accomplished speaker. Perhaps there is an agenda here to glorify him. Not that that is a bad thing to do. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the talk page I suggested changing the article to "List of multilingual world leaders." That would take care of most of the problems mentioned here. I could also mention that it is hard to add a name in the current format and that listing single language leaders seems a bit mean spirited. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just created "Category:Multilingual World Leaders" Steve Dufour (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, even if it was renamed to that title, it doesn't address who counts as a "world leader" (just current heads of state, or a more inclusive set of criteria?) Also, that would mean, anyone who spoke two or more languages would be considered multi-lingual, again raising the issue of linguisticaly talented heads of state vs. those who only speak two languages. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 01:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I intended to make the category a little vague, to include Herbert Hoover, noted for his Chinese, and a governor of Hong Kong who spoke 100 languages.Steve Dufour (talk) 01:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So the category page would include world leaders past and present, as long as they're individually notable? --Patar knight - chat/contributions 21:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I intended, as long as the person's language skills are also noted in his or her article. I don't think a person speaking his native language and English, or an American speaking English and Spanish, or a Canadian speaking English and French, etc. are worth mentioning. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. Info is relevant, and I think this keeping does add value to WP. I understand the POV concerns that have been raised, but as single-language leaders aren't included, I think we've avoided that. Needs an intro, though. Graymornings(talk) 20:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If single-language leaders aren't included, then the article would have to be renamed to something like Linguistic capabilities of multi-lingual current heads of state, or something to that effect. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 01:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we could come up with something shorter. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 01:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for sending out the heads up. I like the category (which is natural since I created it) regardless if what happens with this AfD. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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