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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Latin Metal (3rd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Improvements to article indicate that it is possible to create a relevant entry. Black Kite 12:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latin Metal

[edit]
AfDs for this article:
Latin Metal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
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The page was nominated previously and got an overwhelming and unanimous "delete", see here [1]. I can't see what's changed. No sources whatsoever, just a couple of lines of text written by an editor. It gives absolutely no indiciation of coverage in reliable sources or notability. WP:NEO, WP:NOT, WP:V and WP:OR all apply. Should be an open and shut case. Google news turns up about 100 results, but consider A) How many of those are actually authoritative heavy metal sources? B) How many of those are just describing Ill Nino with a convenient term? C) How many of those are actually describing a genre in detail, as opposed to using a simple phrase? This last one is particularly important, as if we made an article for every single random phrase used with "-metal" after it, we'd have hundreds of empty articles. Justgimmethedamnaccount (talk) 08:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC) — Justgimmethedamnaccount (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

  • Delete - Completely non notable term, delete and protect against recreation -- Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 14:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I'm actually pretty sure Latin Metal does exist as a perhaps Notable subject (maybe Googling that phrase in Spanish & Portuguese would generate more hits?), but this article doesn't demonstrate its Notability, or even come remotely close (pretty difficult to do, with no sources). If someone wants to write a serious article on this topic, they should be permitted to do so. But this ain't it. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 14:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Based on subsequent improvements to the article, I'm changing my vote to Keep. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 13:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The thing is, it probably does exist as a term. But not really as a genre: no doubt people use the term "Latin metal" to describe heavy metal with a latin flavour. But people use many such terms, just for convenience. Unless there are sources describing a genre in detail, then there isn't really a need for an article, which is unfortunately what a lot of users overlook. Justgimmethedamnaccount (talk) 15:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Loki, thanks for the link, but I don't think that that review provides a very strong argument for a merge, esp. if you look at statements like "Fed up with the nü-metal limitations of his old band, Ortiz formed Ankla as an outlet to create something fresh," combined with "Ankla builds a solid foundation for a new direction of Latin metal"--this suggests a difference from nu-metal. IN fact, this review is good grounds for adding Ankla to the Latin metal article. Drmies (talk) 19:24, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the current version? The article has expanded since last night, thanks to Drmies. It now includes reliable sources and wikilinks to Spanish metal bands. We are not talking about the same article that was deleted before. --Jmundo (talk) 22:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The references all seem to point the term "Latin" toward the band members of these supposed 'latin metal' bands. There can be a "latin" metal band. But there is no such thing as latin metal 'music'. A "genre" is a musical style, not an ethnic grouping. Wether B (talk) 23:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not correct--that is not what those references point at. They point, in fact, at salsa rhythms, at flamenco-influenced guitar playing, at bilingual vocals. Claiming that they only point at ethnicity is really a misreading of the sources, and I don't think you can prove that from a single one of those sources. Drmies (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Even in this newly-cited form, how much of worth is there in this article? Most of the footnotes don't actually talk about "latin metal", most of them just use the phrase. Allmusic, for example: it doesn't give "latin metal" as a genre/style, it just uses the phrase as a convenient descriptor for a metal band that features some latin music elements, and that in itself isn't much good for supporting a whole article. Most of that "History" section isn't even related to "latin metal", but rather latin music with occasional mentions of heavy metal; and the rest is just a short band list. In addition, only half the sources really strike me as genuinely authoritative on rock music/heavy metal. Please read and consider my points, even if you ultimately disagree with them, that's all I ask. Justgimmethedamnaccount (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even with a few sources I just don't see evidence this is a notable genre. Triplestop x3 22:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Even if the sources were only referring to "Metal music made by Latinos" (which does not appear to be the case) that wouldn't be a reason for deletion. "Isn't a real music genre" isn't a deletion criteria outlined in any policy document, but instead is a type of IDONTLIKEIT argument. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with Thaddeus. As I said above, the sources do not make any such statement. See, for instance, the Allmusic overview of Ill Nino: "The New Jersey-based Latin metal sextet Ill Nino ... Most of its members are of South American descent, resulting in a type of music that combines crunchy heavy metal with Latin rhythms and lyrics that alternate between English and Spanish. ... to quote Chavarri, "The idea is to be as heavy as possible and as melodic as possible -- with a Latin twist")." The terminology here is crystal clear. The band comes from New Jersey, which is not a "Latin" state. Most of its members are "of South American descent" (and there's a lot more to South American than just Latin!), but not all. The remark on Latin rhythms and bilingual lyrics clearly establishes that we are dealing here NOT with a geographical or racial application of the term, but with a cultural one. In the same way that Celtic metal isn't necessarily made by Celts (whatever that may mean today), Latin metal isn't metal made by "Latins" or in "Latinia" (it's made in New Jersey, California, Spain, Argentina, etc.). Drmies (talk) 19:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep based on the improvements to the article, and the arguments put forward by User:Drmies and others. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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