Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bashert

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Shidduch. Black Kite 00:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bashert

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"Minor subject in Judaism and not information for the wider English speaking public. Not an English term and this is an English language wiki. Moved to the Yiddish wiki. Alatari (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC) "[reply]

Hence too small to be notable enough for an article of their own. Newman Luke (talk) 23:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- False assertion. Firstly, if it's a stub, it can be expanded. Secondly, the word "Bashert" is in popular usage with many English-speaking Jewish people. See the English Google that has 37,800 "Bashert" hits . Thirdly there are many English words derived from other languages noted on Wikipedia: Category:English words and phrases of foreign origin. Fourthly Wikipedia is home to all sorts of words from all languages, see these: Category:Words and phrases by language that includes Category:Yiddish words and phrases and Category:Hebrew words and phrases and many others like this. Finally, therefore, absolutely no one says they should be "deleted"! IZAK (talk) 08:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm curious. Why state that against my comment, rather than against the nominators? Newman Luke (talk) 00:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Because of the way you phrased your concurrance with the nominator and made it seem like a seamless ongoing assertion. IZAK (talk) 15:59, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I don't see a convincing deletion rationale in this nomination. If it gets an article in Yiddish, it merits one here. It is possible for subjects to be exhausted by brief articles; see Amafanius. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think its basically something along the lines of its a word translation. what more can be said about it that isn't already covered by soulmate. If you think there's something distinctly Jewish about it - that there is something about a bashert that is quite distinct from a soulmate, or that there is something substantial and unique to Judaism about how it regards/treats/believes-in a soulmate, would it be possible for you to add to the article to make this material clear? (if you do make changes of this kind, please leave a comment here, so we can review the changes and decide whether to change our stance about the article). Newman Luke (talk) 15:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Your very obvious error here is that the word "bashert" is not just about a soul mate alone. In a Jewish religious context it is a word that if often and accurately used to describe that whatever befalls a Jew, and all people, is so to speak "all in God's hands" and "directed from Above" (not my expression, but how it's used and understood) so that to limit it only to "soulmate" is absolutely not correct. The translation is closer, but not exactly, to "Preordained" than to anything else. And therefore it is about the totality of what is pre-ordained not just people's soul-mates. IZAK (talk) 08:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I would appreciate it if you would be a little less obsessed about me. I am not the nominator of this AfD. I am stating above what I believe User:Alatari's nomination reason to mean. Take it up with him/her, or present it as an alternative interpretation of his/her motives. Stop overly picking on me. Newman Luke (talk) 00:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I modified my original opinion and it is stated below this line. I am not an expert in the realms of religion and underestimated the importance of the term. I still don't believe the article can stand on it's own without some additional edits. That said, Wikipedia is a nice hobby but this level of emotions on this topic is not the Middle Path. Alatari (talk) 02:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Wikipedia is not paper. No reason given for thinking it "too minor". The concept seems specific in the sense used, as explained in the article. The en WP covers the entire world; it merely happens to be written in English. Different Wikipedia may have different inclusion criteria -- broader or narrower than ours' - but that is another matter. There is no such thing as a subject too specific to one language area to be covered in another. DGG ( talk ) 17:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with shidduch, which discusses the Jewish matchmaking process and where the concept is best discussed in context. JFW | T@lk 18:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep~~ Merge to Divine providence (Judaism) (per User:Shlomke below) because, even though it's a word of Yiddish origin, as a concept it conveys an entire outlook of how classical Judaism views the combination of the metaphysical with human affairs in Jewish matchmaking (as an example). It is basically the Jewish way of referring to Predestination or Preordained which the notion of "bashert" basically encapsulates from the Jewish perspective. If anything, this article should be enriched with Predestination#Jewish views and somewhere in the Free will article there was also a connection to this topic. At any rate, despite its modest sounding name, the topic of "bashert" is important in mystical Jewish thought. Jewish singles websites use this word and idea a lot, alone worthy of an article. There are 37,800 Google hits for the Word "Bashert" alone, surely worthy of a larger article and a clear-cut keep. IZAK (talk) 08:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. IZAK (talk) 08:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into the shidduch per JFW. It's a very short article; barely more than a definition. This is a change in my view since technically I'm the original AfD editor. If it is concluded it is very notable then it needs some work. Alatari (talk) 09:34, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge obviously into Shidduch. The concept is well know throughout America, but definitely not in need of an article of its own. It's more like a word definition. Willing to make the merge, if an willing editor is needed. Debresser (talk) 11:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi, the word "bashert" and its meaning is not just about "shidduch" (finding a match) in Jewish parlance and thought, it is also used as a term for what is "pre-destined" or "pre-ordained" by fate in all walks of life, not just in finding a marriage partner. IZAK (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - That would be covered in the Divine providence article . ~~It still does not merit an article of its own~~. Shlomke (talk) 17:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - On second thought, when one word means two or more things it might be better to have a separate article for that term. Shlomke (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thank you Shlomke for bringing this to our attention, I agree with you that "Bashert" as a serious topic should be merged with Divine providence (Judaism) as you correctly point out. IZAK (talk) 21:47, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I feel honored :) Shlomke (talk) 04:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Shidduch and Divine providence (Judaism) as the term has different meanings and applies to both articles. Shlomke (talk) 17:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/Redirect into Shidduch, per above.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.