Greetings, Netherzone, may 2025 bring you joy! Best wishes for the upcoming year, and thank you for all you do for Wikipedia and for Native communities!
@Netherzone thank you for the lovely message and right backatcha. It's been one of the pleasures of my time here to occasionally collaborate with you on content creation. I hope you and all your people have a beautiful and peaceful new year! jengod (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today, between many who just died, Tobias Kratzer on his 45th birthday who was good for an unusual DYK mentioning a Verdi opera in 2018, - you can see his work in the trailer of another one that I saw, and my talk page has a third (but by a different director). 2025 pics, finally. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gerda, I was looking at some of your photos this morning, and was wondering about this little stream or creek you photographed in the Upper Auback Valley Upper Auback valley, Oberlibbach. Does it have a name that you know of?
I'm wondering if it is a winterborne creek that only flows during part of the year, usually after the snow starts melting; an intermittent stream. Just curious, I'm doing some research on these types of bodies of water. Hope all is well with you, Netherzone (talk) 15:46, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have more vacation pics to offer, and today's story of Werner Bardenhewer. I took the pic, and it was my DYK on his 90th birthday, in both English and German. He spent the day in Africa, and after his return said - chatting after a mass of thanks he celebrated at Mariä Heimsuchung - that we'd have to talk about these articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:30, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Netherzone, thank you very much for the kind personal foxfire greetings! I hope that fire will soon not longer be necessary to start the day in light as the days become longer again. And in the mean time, we can enjoy sunrises and sunsets!
Thank you so much for this, that musical piece is beautiful and exactly what I needed to hear at this very moment! Here's to sunrises and sunsets in the new year. There is a meteor shower happening this week (visible in North America, not sure where else) I'm hoping for a clear night tonight to watch for shooting stars. Netherzone (talk) 14:42, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Netherzone. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
I just wanted to clarify that I never intended to "silence" you or undermine your voice in any way. My goal was simply to help make the section more concise. If you hadn't noticed, there was a "see more" button that allowed users to view the full context you provided, and I really appreciate you taking the time to include the pre-block context. The reason I HATed the section was that, often, very lengthy ANI posts don't get as much attention and tend to be archived without action.
I absolutely didn’t mean to imply that your context was irrelevant or wrong.
Rather, I was just trying to make the main actionable issue (the userspace and "laboratory" concerns) stand out more amongst the wall of text for those skimming the post.
After seeing your recent edit summary, I wanted to come here and sincerely apologize if my edits made you feel otherwise. I will not re-HAT the section.
Your voice is genuinely valued and important here, and I appreciate everything you contribute. I’m sorry if my actions seemed unclear, and please know that I encourage you to keep sharing your unique perspective!
Hi there, I'm a new editor and wanted to thank you for the work you have put in towards documenting Indigenous art and history. I think it's super important work and I appreciate your effort! - AppreciateALittleBreeze (talk) 04:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that, but was wondering about the comment by another editor. Do you know if what they say is this actually correct copyright law? If so, is there a correct license for that, if so what might that be? Or is it BS? Netherzone (talk) 23:07, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Greg has been uploading LOW RESOLUTION version of them, often citing the Monterey County Historical Society's e-commerce portal on Fine Arts America creating a potential of inducing picture purchases to occur through people who wanted their own copy of what they see on Wikimedia. However, if they were truly public domain/CC-BY-SA, the full resolution image, not the low resolution sample should be upped to Wikimedia, so the intentions seem rather clear. MCHS is a name that came up in COI discussions. Seems to me the purpose is to generate interest in the photos in order to drive traffic and cause people to shell out money to MCHS. Graywalls (talk) 23:38, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That is deeply troubling. The situation has not seemed to improved at all. It seems that he keeps discovering new ways to game the system. Netherzone (talk) 15:22, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi NZ, I edited down the article on Barrie Jones. Hope it looks OK to you. I am suspicious of the editor who is creating very detailed biographies of living Canadians. Let me know if I am off-base on this. THanks! --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 18:52, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi and thanks for reaching out. I will have a look, I'm sure your edits are fine, tho. I agree that it may be a COI, but it doesn't look like UPE to me, more like either an enthusiastic alumni or someone who attended an edit-a-thon at UBC. The collections and award are what tipped the scale for me re: notability. But if you have a different opinion, I'm all ears!
The De Luca article is another matter altogether; the article was obviously part of a PR spam-a-thon. It's unfortunate that COI or PROMO carries no weight at AfD; I have gotten my hand slapped several times for even mentioning that. Times have changed I guess. If it is kept, I think it should be trimmed down to a Possibly Stub. As it is, it's a festival of namedropping. Hope my change of !vote wasn't too much of a shock to you, especially after you taking the time to do the source analysis. I wish there were more participants in these Visual Arts and Photography AfDs! Netherzone (talk) 19:13, 3 March 2025 (UTC) Courtesy ping, WomenArtistUpdates in case my talk isn't on your watchlist. Forgive me if you get multiple pings. Netherzone (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that is my assessment too. Jones is a fan page and De Luca is a planned promotion. COI is frustrating, but I also understand you can't necessarily ping the subject because of the editor. All that said, I never mind us being on different sides of the controversial articles :) --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! Thanks for the comment. I'd be grateful if you took the time to let me know what "The draft is ref-bombed with unreliable sources, and sources that don't mention the person." is based on. After I received the first comment, I tried "to remove the unreliable sources, and focus on including secondary, fully independent reliable sources that discuss the person in-depth, providing significant coverage". There is one reference link that I made to my own homepage, which I can remove. But other sources are independent and/or academic sources 1) Several links refer to academic papers that discuss my work, 2) Some are references to publications (DVD compilations, interviews) in which my work is presented 3) explanatory links on institutions that are mentioned in the text. Please give me guidance to how to proceed from here. Is there any particular paragraph that you think I should remove, for example? Sachikosky (talk) 15:16, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello and thanks for your message! Here is what ref-bombing means: WP:REFBOMB. In a nutshell it means that an article or draft has an overabundance of sources that are trivial, meaning that they do not cover the person in depth WP:INDEPTH or provide significant coverage WP:SIGCOV. Please click on the links for more comprehensive information. This is what secondary source means (rather than primary source): WP:SECONDARY. An independent source means a source that in not connected to the person. For example if the person had a show or job somewhere or got a grant for an organization, that would be a connected source. But if a journalist who did not know the person or academic who did not know the person wrote an article in an academic journal, or newspaper or magazine ABOUT the person, that would be a solid independent source, which is what the encyclopedia needs to establish notability. See WP:INDEPENDENT. Interviews are almost always considered primary sources because it is the person talking about themself, not what others who are not connected are saying ABOUT them. Also see here to understand how wikipedia defines notability in general: WP:N and for creative people WP:CREATIVE. Trivial coverage also means if the person is just simply mentioned, or listed in an event calendar, etc. - that sort of coverage does not help to establish notability.
It will help reviewers a lot if you can remove the trivial sources. Please reach out to the Wikipedia teahouse WP:TEAHOUSE if you have additional questions. Hope this helps. Netherzone (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment. I will go through the links thoroughly a little later. I also received a comment by Mississipi, which was a great help. I'd like to especially thank you for the explanation on interviews. In the art world, there are not so many who receive the opportunities of interviews and therefore they are often regarded of importance. So it works a little different here, I think. It is very interesting to learn how Wikipedia works, and I thank you for your time to review mine and communicate with me. Sachikosky (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The event will feature thematic video art installations and our traditional Wiki-fashion show, for which you are encouraged to dress in your finest Wikimedia clothing and accessories (bags, buttons, even books), or clothing connected to the topics you edit on wiki projects.
Dear @Netherzone, thanks for the cleanup suggestion on the Koekkoek family page. The gallery was a bit crowded indeed. I just removed the additional images, leaving only one per artist. Let me know if this is what you had in mind! Lrkrol (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Lrkrol, Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for your time and effort in creating the article.
There are still things that do not seem quite right to me about the article as it stands within the context of an encyclopedia.
Here are some issues to consider:
1) There are promotional words used such as these identified by a WP promo-script: 'Promotional words': historic, influential, inspired by, numerous, popularity, renowned" Please tone down the article to use more encylopedic language.
2) It is unclear which publishing house published the first citation (and when), is this from an art history text?
4) A WP unreliable sources script flags these as unreliable: Ancestry.com - citations and associated content should be removed as WP does not consider this to be a reliable source because it is user-submitted data. Please find a better source and then the associated content can be restored. It also flags the Podcast as questionable/biased or unclear reliability. The Podcast sources content that seems like an attempt to whitewash the fact that the painter Cornelius was mostly known for their fascist and antisemitic propaganda artwork - so to follow that fact with conjecture from "the police" that this work was done not for ideological reasons, but in order to make ends meet, and to financially support his two families. seems questionable. The encyclopedia content should focus on what a person did during their lifetime, not what a policeman says he did as interpreted by a non-notable historian.
5) Encyclopedia articles should convey information in concise terms. Currently there is much too much wordiness and excessive detail in the article. For example, it's not really necessary to say that someone "worked at a wallpaper shop", or used to paint houses, or that someone died of "prolonged suffering". Do readers really need an entire sentence to know that "Twin Anna became a tailor not a painter, no works of her hand are known", this information could easily be said, "his twin sister Anna, a tailor...". It is not necessary to say define why someone is called "Elder" readers already know that means. These are a few examples.
6) Please remove the editorializations; WP is an encyclopedia, not a place for personal opinions or original research. Here is an example of editorialization: whose further biography is unknown. Going forward, this article will only consider known artists from the Koekkoek family.)
7) Please clean up metaphors, they are not considered encyclopedic. Here are some examples used in the article: four of his children "follow in their father's footsteps" could be phrased: "four of his children also be came painters". Instead of saying "work of his hand" just say "work" or "paintings", etc.
Since they broke away from the Shoshone, there really has only been one Comanche tribe (which distinct bands). There is no separate line between Comanche people and "Comanche Nation" people. There are several times who have been unified through time and don't require separate categories. I tried to depopulate the superfulous "Comanche Nation people" category in hopes that it would be deleted. Yuchitown (talk) 20:11, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! I guess it's difficult to track changes to entries within categories. I can upcat everyone. (Although help is appreciated. I don't know how to use Hotcat so am reading up on that.) Yuchitown (talk) 20:50, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
HotCat is great, very useful. Please tell me if I'm approaching the cats for Pueblo people correctly. I made a cat for Zuni jewelers, since there are so many, also one for Navajo printmakers and Navajo weavers for the same reason (and maybe a couple others, can't remember w/o looking back thru my activities over the the past day or two. I was going to create cats for things like Santo Domingo Pueblo jewelers, Cochiti Pueblo ceramic artists, (for example) for each the specific pueblos where relevant. Is this a good idea or not? I will follow your lead. Netherzone (talk) 21:06, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Those all make sense. Categorizing by tribe and media seem a lot more helpful than the women artist categories (since men always seem to be left in the main category space while women get squirreled away into the subcats). I tried to fight some of those in the past, lost, so ignore them now. Same with the century categories. Yuchitown (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Food for thought: with Santo Domingo Pueblo artists, would you consider lapidarians "jewelers"? M-W says "one who deals in jewelry, precious stones, watches, and usually silverware and china"; would shell-carvers (heishe makers) be included? Yuchitown (talk) 21:48, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You have raised a very good point. I've thought about that very thing, and in drafting new articles, I try to mention if an artist is a lapidary artist or a silversmith or both. There are degrees of cross over. Lapidary artists work with semi-precious stones and minerals, some with precious gems, and also with shell. And they frequently create their own inlay settings in silver. I think of silversmiths as working primarily in silver "masterwork" including both fabricated pieces and cast pieces. There are "silversmiths" that work in mixed metals, and in silver, gold and brass.
Re: bead-workers that make their own heishi who are really different than beadworkers who "embroider"pre-fabricated beads. The work that goes into heishi is enormous. I've kind of lumped some them all together under the jewelers cat, but been more specific in the short description and the articles.
Also, are Zuni fetish carvers sculptors? As far as I know, they don't use lapidary tools in the same ways as artist who focus more on cabochon cutting other than maybe to cut down larger stones for later finishing by hand or Dremel tool.
I've also thought about the differences between potters and ceramic artists/ceramic sculptors (folks like Virgil Ortiz or Roxanne Swentzel) - there are cats for both, but there doesn't seem to be a standard.
Dear Netherzone, I'm just opening a new thread here since you archived the previous one. Thanks for the careful reading of the article and your earlier pointers; they were helpful indeed, although I did not have time until now to look at it myself. I have now gone through the article again following your edits, and cleaned up the language a bit more. As for your other comments:
The first citation was published in 2003 by Simonis & Buunk, a Dutch art gallery that organised an exhibition that year in cooperation with the B.C. Koekkoek-Haus museum. The citation refers to the booklet that came with that exhibition. The authors are art historians.
About Ancestry.com: This surprises me a little bit, since it is only because the Wikipedia Library provides access to it that I could use this website. I realise some data on that site is user-submitted, but as the citations indicate, the information I cite comes from official collections ingested into Ancestry at some point. Does Wikipedia not make this distinction? I only resorted to Ancestry when no official records could be found; I sometimes still trust such data more than sites like RKD (which I've had to correct myself). Still, I can cite RKD instead if that's more in line with Wikipedia policy.
About the podcast: This podcast was produced by a museum that held a Koekkoek exhibition at that time. I unfortunately cannot (easily) get access to the police files quoted in that podcast, so I quoted the historian instead. The relevant part of the transcript is:
00:14:53 "... En die heeft in de oorlog om geld te verdienen, en helemaal niet uit ideologische overtuigingen hebben we later gelezen in zijn dossier van de politieke recherche, getekend heeft voor de bezetter en voor nationaalsocialistische organisaties."
Hello! Thanks for your note. Glad to hear most of my edits were helpful. Would you like me to restore the previous message thread from my archive so that it's all in one place, or it could also be copied to the article talk page? That's no trouble whatsoever.
Re: Ancestry. Yes, it's true that it's on the RSP cautionary list, WP:ANCESTRY as questionable. But I think in this case, go ahead and use it unless another editor objects.
Thank you for providing the exact passage in the interview, I was doing spot checking using a machine translation, and could not find it thru that method. I think, since it is a sensitive issue, that we use the exact quote by Jacques Dane, so that there is no ambiguity or interpretation of what he actually said. To my way of thinking this would be both good for Dane, as well as for our readership. What do you think of using the translated passage it in quotation marks?
This is the Google Translation: "... And during the war, in order to earn money, and not at all out of ideological convictions, we later read in his file from the political investigation department, he signed for the occupier and for national socialist organizations." My Dutch language skills are very rudimentary, so I will rely on your translation skills and thoughts on using it as a quote.
Thanks for the positive feedback; I'm glad to contribute. With these issues resolved, I may spend some time translating the article into German and Dutch.
Yes, I think it's a good idea to include the exact quote. I have made a suggestion directly in the article, with the full quote in the citation.
If it's no trouble, it's probably cleanest to move this to the article's talk page indeed, but I'll leave it to you. Lrkrol (talk) 10:50, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I don't remember the AfD for this, however I do know that I did not initiate an AfD for the TJ Norris article. If the article was deleted thru the community consensus during the AfD process, I don't have the power or ability to undelete it. I'm sorry I cannot be more helpful. Netherzone (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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I hope that fire will soon not longer be necessary to start the day in light as the days become longer again. And in the mean time, we can enjoy sunrises and sunsets! 
~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:15, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
