Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1037

User:Horse Eye Jack (misuse of Uw-nor4)

I am not sure why stating (an incontrovertible fact, which is) that the Holy See does not (strictly speaking) recognise Taiwan as an independent state is somehow OR on my part, and surely this is a gross misuse of the whole user warning system by placing a subst:Uw-nor4 straight onto my (IP's) User Talk page. [1] 194.207.146.167 (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Why didn't you just supplant Holy See with Vatican City throughout, though? Would that not have resolved matter. Yes, the uw-nor4 warning may not have been optimal (as in bitey), but it isn't really actionable. Only an admin can enforce warnings, anyway. El_C 22:00, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the first bit, just what were you on about?! 194.207.146.167 (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a routine content dispute and not a matter for this noticeboard. Discuss the content issue at the article talk page, and if you think the other editor misused a template, discuss that calmly on their user talk page. Using terms like "incontrovertible" and "gross misuse" is a bit much under these circumstances. Getting emotional about such a minor matter is not productive. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, there was no discussion on his part! And, it still wouldn't justify an Uw-nor4! 194.207.146.167 (talk) 22:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

As Cullen said, you should have tried addressing that with Horse Eye Jack first, before submitting a report here. This is meant to be your last resort, not your first. Anyway, I suggest you just move on to the content dispute by engaging in discussion on the article talk page. El_C 22:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding your now-deleted comment, were you also trying to suggest I was somehow vandalising articles? 194.207.146.167 (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I was not. El_C 22:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Just having a rant of your own then? 194.207.146.167 (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

You are outliving your welcome on this noticeboard, IP. El_C 22:33, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

The severity of the warning was due to similar behavior at Foreign relations of Taiwan and because they appear to have been warned many times about disruptive editing. Making grand statements about international law [2] without even a whiff of a source is definitely OR. Also the whole “incontrovertible fact” which the editor is basing their argument on does appear to be a matter of opinion and they do appear to be fundamentally mistaken about what happened in 2018 (File talk:Holy See relations.svg). Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:24, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Edit-warring POV on EverQuote by IP pushing same POV since 2018

((moving report here from WP:AN, where I mistakenly posted it yesterday))

This person edits from a shifting IP address, but these recent edits[3][4] are likely from the same shifting-IP person [5] reported by @Ponyo: in the past.

If you semi-protect the article for a few weeks, the edit-warring on the article can be replaced by discussion on the talk page. I will notify the talk pages of those two IPs though I doubt the person in question will see my messages. HouseOfChange (talk) 04:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

The IP is back today inserting the same material with edit summary "WP:BRD is a guideline while WP:OWN is policy. Then on talk page argues that it doesn't matter what RS say because Online marketplace says something different. I don't want to revert his change a third time, but can somebody here take a look please? HouseOfChange (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Not an admin, but I reverted and chimed in on the talkpage; the edits are obviously in violation of what the sources clearly and explicitly state. Grandpallama (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

For any admins that want to look at this, disruptive editing by various Virginia-based IPs, likely the same person, focused on the removal of the term "marketplace" goes back to November 2018. Grandpallama (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to Grandpallama for taking a look at this IP, who is probably also this IP and this IP. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:38, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

((restart indent)) the comedy continues at the article as IP makes same edit for 4th time. I just copy-pasted this entire discussion here from WP:AN, where I mistakenly had put it. Apologies!! @Grandpallama: thanks for trying to help. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kuru:, Ponyo says you are the admin who dealt with this IP in 2018 incident re the same article. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The page has been protected, but only for a week. Given the persistence of this IP, and the continued nonsense on the talkpage, I'd think another block of the range might be in order. Grandpallama (talk) 17:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The article is protected but the trolling continues on Talk page, 9 from him since 10 p.m. last night, latest claim is "Hate to break it to you, but no one from WP:ANI is even paying attention," so we should change article to what he wants so that he will stop trolling. Please some admin...help if possible, or even just advice. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You could probably put an end to the talk page trolling by opting not to respond further. It isn't as though the user keeps introducing substantially new insights that merit a response. Largoplazo (talk) 17:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Or I don't know, maybe you could give some consideration to improving the neutrality of the article by removing a claim that is only sourced from media outlets repeating the same promotional wording provided by the subject of the article? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:ADC2:271F:4A32:B3AB (talk) 18:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

If multiple bylined articles in RS use the word "marketplace" to describe a company's business model, that means multiple RS have vetted that metaphor used in company PR as an accurate shorthand to describe the company. Also, the article clearly describes (based on RS) how EverQuote connects insurance shoppers to multiple insurance vendors. (No insurance policies are displayed on wooden tables in a town square.) Also, the word "marketplace" is not a promotional term. HouseOfChange (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You are putting way too much faith in the sources provided. None of them would have even mentioned the subject without a press release and they are just copying the company description from the press release without giving it a second thought. 2600:1003:B84D:C995:ADC2:271F:4A32:B3AB (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

This makes no sense. WP:RS is not over-ruled by vague guesses and claims that some reporters are lazy. HouseOfChange (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Why is it important to you that Everquote be described as a "marketplace" when "lead generator" [6] is a much more precise and accurate term for the service Everquote provides and that also appears in less potentially biased sources? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:F9C0:5EF4:6552:69A1 (talk) 04:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Even the one negative 2018 stock analysis you cite specifically describes EverQuote as "an insurance comparison website." From 2017 WSJ to 2020 Motley Fool 99.7% of news articles call it an "insurance marketplace." The Motley Fool piece, which ends by teasing 10 other stocks they like better than EverQuote, is hardly a reprint of anybody's press release. You are asking for Wikipedia's voice to contradict RS. IMO it shouldn't. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the S&P Global Market Intelligence article as "negative" analysis. It is objective and neutral. Also, if you read the article, the only time the author uses the word "marketplace", he clearly indicates that is how Everquote describes themselves and then goes on to provide his own professional analysis describing them as a "lead generator". You have repeatedly avoided answering why it is important to you that the word "marketplace" appear in the description. Could you answer that question please? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:391B:B754:5544:481B (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Sounds more like it's very important to you that the term not be included. Demanding others adhere to standards you do not isn't going to win any favors. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:05, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Quite the contrary. I am attempting dispute resolution and have called what I consider to be a misrepresentation of Everquote into question as well as the quality of the sources presented because I do not think that "marketplace" accurately describes their business model which consists of the collection and sale of personal information to third parties. I have clearly disclosed this. I have asked those who disagree with me to plainly explain why. Wikipedia policy does not require all information from reliable sources be repeated verbatim and encourages the removal of potentially inaccurate information if it cannot be sufficiently verified. So, just saying it is in RS, does not demand that it appear in the article, especially when the quality of the source is in question. 2600:1003:B84D:C995:391B:B754:5544:481B (talk) 17:21, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

(restart indent) Back in January 2019, you were trying to remove a different description (also from RS) "insurance matchmaker."[7] I am not in love with the word "marketplace" or the word "matchmaker," but I object to SPAs trying to use Wikipedia to "correct" what RS say -- in your case, to hide the fact that EverQuote is a (some metaphor here) where insurance seekers can get competitive quotes from multiple insurance providers who have in the past sold insurance to people like them. Also, I don't see how EverQuote could be a "lead generator" if insurance shoppers who went to EverQuote did not, in fact, get insurance quotes they liked enough to buy from one. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Why must any metaphor be used at all when there is a plain language alternative available to clearly describe what Everquote does? 2600:1003:B84D:C995:391B:B754:5544:481B (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

It is vague and inaccurate to hide from our readers the fact (however you express it, and RS say "marketplace") that insurance shoppers go to EverQuote to get connected to sellers of insurance. Most RS call it a "marketplace" first and many never bother to mention lead generation at all, because just about every website that asks you for information is ALSO making money from "lead generation." It is hard for me to understand that in a universe with Google, Facebook, and Amazon, you are so shocked and irate about a tiny Internet company few people have heard of that you need to spend two years trying to get Wikipedia to contradict the way RS describe it. HouseOfChange (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

That's just it. Calling Everquote a "lead generator" isn't hiding anything, but rather telling readers exactly how Everquote connects perspective buyers to prospective sellers. Amazon is accurately described as a marketplace. Facebook runs a marketplace amongst providing other services. Google is not a marketplace although they do provide Google shopping search services. The difference is that none of them sell personally identifying information under the guise of claiming to provide a different experience. I am not shocked or irate about this but according to the Better Business Bureau and other ratings/review websites which are not suitable sources for Wikipedia, many people (both perspective buyers and sellers) are irate with Everquote once they find out what really happens when someone requests a quote. Rather than focusing on those poorly sourced negative reports, I am only suggesting taking a more neutral approach of describing exactly what Everquote does, as reported in reliable sources, without using any colorful metaphors that may carry additional connotations and disguise what service Everquote offers. That is exactly what Wikipedia NPOV policies say must be done. 2600:1003:B84D:C995:391B:B754:5544:481B (talk) 01:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

It is already in the lead paragraph of the article that Everquote is "an online insurance marketplace and lead generation service." (By the way, "lead generation service" was your own choice of wording in early 2019.) The article already explains clearly "what really happens when someone requests a quote." People who are unhappy with "what really happens" complain to rating/review sites. People who are happy to get a bunch of quotes from different insurance companies buy insurance from one of them. According to one recent article, those insurance buyers saved money as well as time. Wikipedia need not reflect the POV of either the happy customers or the angry ones (presumably a smaller group, given the success of Everquote) but it should reflect its predominant description by reliable sources. If we want to describe "exactly what EverQuote does, as reported in reliable sources," removing accurate and well-attested material does not make things clearer for our readers. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

None of the sources provided define what a "marketplace" is or is not. The fact that you and I have different ideas about the possible definition or it's usage as a metaphor should be an indication that one is required and that the sources are lacking in that regard.2600:1003:B84D:C995:391B:B754:5544:481B (talk) 03:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Having read the talk page and looked at the edit history, I'll extend DeltaQuad's protection for a bit; there is no indication that this will go away. Drmies (talk) 03:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

With enormous thanks to Drmies, I think this problem has been solved now -- at least until May 2021. If somebody wants to close this discussion, I'm good with that. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

HouseOfChange, thanks but I'm only following DeltaQuad's lead. The question I have is at which point we block 2600:1003:b84d:c995:adc2:271f:4a32:b3ab/64, or 2601:5c2:200:46:c0b1:65b8:4759:7330/64. Drmies (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Drmies: You are welcome to block both plus the larger subnets they are part of if you think doing that will 'prevent' anything. 174.226.131.46 (talk) 00:08, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Eshaan11

• Eshaan11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Eshaan11 has a history of bad page moves (full log), some of which include:

• Deafblindness → Being Deaf And Blind
• Color photography → Colour Photography (they were warned about US/UK spelling stuff after this one)
• Color → Colour (Color)
• Kim Jong-un bibliography → Kim Jong-un biography (the article really was a bibliography, not a biography)
• Jay Sadguru Swami → Page deleted (and a couple others along with this, a misguided attempt to delete a page out of process (and permissions), causing a bit of a mess to clean up after)
• ABACABA pattern → Abacabadabacaba pattern (I gave them yet another warning after this one and asked that they use WP:RM for any further moves they wanted to perform due to the ongoing disruption)
• Fan labor → Fan labour (but just yesterday, this was done, another US to UK spelling one, no indication of the request to use WP:RM instead)

At the very least, I think a WP:TBAN from page moves is warranted at this point. There's been no indication from the user that they understand the issues involved. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

The deleted edits are not very promising. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I think we should create a new version of Wikipedia in British English at https://gb.wikipedia.org (mobile at https://gb.m.wikipedia.org) where people will read and write Wikipedia Articles in British English.Eshaan11 (talk) 14:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Eshaan11 Regardless of the merits of that idea (which I think is a poor idea, but that's for another place) you must follow guidelines on this version. 331dot (talk) 14:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• There are serious WP:CIR issues here. "Available" is spelled "available" in every national variety of English of which I'm aware, and WP:SENTENCECASE is similarly not WP:ENGVAR-specific. I dislike being snarky but if a user is going to take a position of orthodoxy regarding particular spelling/grammar conventions, moving pages to "Page Not Availible" or "Being Deaf And Blind" (or referring to "Wikipedia Articles") doesn't bolster the cause. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  Even before I got as far as the above post I was thinking CIR as well. Could be a young person. EEng 02:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)