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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dogsgopher (talk | contribs) at 19:59, 8 April 2023 (→{{cite AV media}} - Audio media: Explanation and Examples, please: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
    Citation templates
    ... in conception
    ... and in reality

    Bot to notify users when they add CS1 errors

    Hi everyone! Looking at the Help:CS1 errors#Most common errors shows a few categories that are quite large. Would it be reasonable to request a bot operator (not me) to write a bot that delivers user talk page messages similar to JaGa's DPL bot whenever a registered editor adds an article to one of the most common CS1 error categories? The bot could use the watchlist to see which user added which article to which category, and then add a new section detailing what the error means and how to fix it with text similar to what is posted at Help:CS1 errors. If so, we could work on fleshing out the idea (e.g. the exact categories and text for the user talk pages) before making a bot request. Or maybe someone following this page would be an interested bot op? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 22:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    User:ReferenceBot used to do this, many years ago. It worked well. Maybe a bot operator would be willing to adopt its source code and maintain it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jonesey95: Thanks for mentioning this. Maybe I had memories of this bot in my subconscious.
    @Legoktm: I noticed you recently posted on the bot op's talk page that you "archived the referencebot project". Does that archive include the source code for someone to adopt?
    Thank you both! GoingBatty (talk) 05:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @GoingBatty: unfortunately when I looked at the source code I couldn't find an explicit license specified, which is partly why I archived it right away instead of waiting for a response from A930913. You could try emailing them? (I'm pretty sure the lack of license was oversight rather than intentional) Legoktm (talk) 06:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Legoktm: Thanks for checking. If we get consensus here, I'll leave emailing to someone who might want to be a new bot op. GoingBatty (talk) 06:45, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Legoktm: @GoingBatty: Hey, feel free to resurrect. The code was in Labs for that very reason. If you need a licence, I declare all my code on Labs as CC-BY-SA, unless you'd prefer a different one. A930913 (talk) 09:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @A930913, Jonesey95, and Legoktm: Posted at Wikipedia:Bot requests#Bot to notify users when they add CS1 errors. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 15:12, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Qwerfjkl (bot) 17

    Page watchers may be interested in the above BRFA. Izno (talk) 08:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Add parameter |eudml=

    I suggest adding a new parameter |eudml= to template:cite journal. Because eudml introduces the url to the full article, and if that url is open access it would be better to replace the parameter |url= with that url, and then, there is no place to enter the url of eudml. --SilverMatsu (talk) 16:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Example

    • Fontaine, Jean-Marc (1985). "Il n'y a pas de variété abélienne sur Z". Inventiones Mathematicae. 81 (3): 515–538. doi:10.1007/BF01388584. S2CID 122218539.
    • Fontaine, Jean-Marc (1985). "Il n'y a pas de variété abélienne sur Z". Inventiones Mathematicae. 81 (3): 515–538. doi:10.1007/BF01388584. S2CID 122218539. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |eudml= ignored (help)

    :Please provide more info on the identifier. It seems to refer to several different things. I assume you mean eduml and not eudml. 204.19.162.34 (talk) 18:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    My mistake. I believe you mean eudml after all. It seems to have a bit of a narrow scope at the moment. I would wait to see if the concept matures/expands. 204.19.162.34 (talk) 18:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If it is adopted it would be better to use it as with the |jstor= field, so |eudml=143270 for the example above. That way it becomes another way that editors can look to gain access to the work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 23:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for your comments. I noticed that the European Digital Mathematics Library is a red link. So, would it be better to ask at the WP:WPM whether the EuDML meets WP:GNG ? --SilverMatsu (talk) 07:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is a good idea, just on the basis of prominent partners such as the European Mathematical Society. The identifier website is very well designed and the identifier itself thoroughly explained, with extensible development. The "Reference Lookup" screen is a clever idea and a big plus, imo. 104.247.55.106 (talk) 14:49, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I apologize for this late reply. I created a new template like Template:ProQuest as an alternative plan. --SilverMatsu (talk) 02:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    fix example. --SilverMatsu (talk) 15:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]


    Example

    • {{cite journal |url=http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/dms/resolveppn/?PPN=GDZPPN002102021|title=Il n'y a pas de variété abélienne sur Z |journal=Inventiones Mathematicae |year=1985 |volume=81 |pages=515–538 |last1=Fontaine |first1=Jean-Marc |issue=3 |doi=10.1007/BF01388584 |s2cid=122218539|id={{User:Silvermatsu/Template:EuDML|143270}}}}
    • Fontaine, Jean-Marc (1985). "Il n'y a pas de variété abélienne sur Z". Inventiones Mathematicae. 81 (3): 515–538. doi:10.1007/BF01388584. S2CID 122218539. EuDML 143270.

    Question: How to note that an article in one newspaper originally appeared in another newspaper?

    Regarding this source:

    "CHARLES WYCKOFF, PHOTO EXPERT". Sun-Sentinel. May 13, 1998. Archived from the original on June 29, 2021. Retrieved March 7, 2023.

    This article appears to have been printed in the Sun-Sentinel but under the title it states "By The Boston Globe". Should I ignore that or give credit to The Boston Globe? If so, where in all of the formatting do I note that? Thanks! -Location (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I think it might be reasonable to say the BG is acting as an |agency= here. That isn't all that different of an attribution in the article than another would give the AP. Izno (talk) 20:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the feedback! -Location (talk) 14:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Is agency for wire services like AP and Reuters? Another option is |via= (manually add italics). --
    GreenC, typically yes. But I think that's how the BG is acting here. Izno (talk) 22:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Translated author?

    Is there a parameter to have the author's name in the original non-Latin script (e.g., 王可心) and then a translated version (e.g., Wang Kexin)? If not, should there be? Or should you just try to do it best you can using some other method in the Basic editor? Why? I Ask (talk) 05:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Pick one name to put in |author=. If you would rather have a different presentation (for example, including their name in one of the CJK scripts), you can use |author-mask=. For example: {{cite book|title=Book |first=Kexin |last=Wang |author-mask=Wang Kexin 王可心}}: Wang Kexin 王可心. Book. Izno (talk) 05:46, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! Why? I Ask (talk) 06:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    When I suggested a markedly similar solution to the {{cite tweet}} user name problem, you described that solution as a naive implementation (permalink). How is it that the proposed {{cite tweet}} use of |author-mask= is naive but the proposed translated-author-name use of |author-mask= is not?
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:33, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Trappist the monk, in the (cite) Twitter context, some people do not provide their real name. So you have to account for plugging the display name into |author= without the @ rather than |first=/|last= (and why I used the word demonstrating, which I honestly couldn't tell you if that should have a [sic] next to it). It had nothing to do with your proposed use of |author-mask= to include the @ symbol. Izno (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Incorrect message

    According to the documentation, "limited" access means "there are other constraints (such as a cap on daily views, a restriction to certain day or night times, or providing the contents only to certain IP ranges/locales on behalf of the provider of the source) to freely access this source as a whole". The most common reason is the last mentioned ie region locking. But the pop-up message says "Free access subject to limited trial, subscription normally required". That is the wrong message; if it were indeed the case, I would not be using "limited" but "subscription". Consider changing the message to match the documentation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The most common reason is the last mentioned ie region locking. Citation needed. My experience is entirely different – I don't often encounter region blocked sites. For me, free access is most often limited to a certain number of views per time period. No doubt, others have different experiences.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll actually go further than Ttm here: It is the documentation that has drifted. We have had several discussions on this page that geo-limiting is not under the purview of "limited". Izno (talk) 00:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    All I found was Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 47#Access level: That's what |url-access=limited is for and the inconclusive discussion in Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 77#Having a special value for url-status when a page is geo-restricted? But by all means change the documentation to match the usage. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The particular case I am looking at is [1] on the page Glynn Lunney. I note WP:ELNO: Sites that are inaccessible to a substantial number of users, such as sites that work only with a specific browser or in a specific country. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    PMID limit excess report

    @Trappist the monk: A cited journal paper in Plasmapheresis has an identifier of PMID 36905184, which excesses the currently configured limit of 36900000 and leads to a bad PMID error of Citation Style 1. Please update this limit. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 05:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible invalid edits to live CS1 module

    I'm not sure why TadejM modified a live CS1 module with no discussion or apparent testing, but I believe that one or both of these edits were invalid and should be reverted. The "empty unknown parameter" message currently renders as "Cite has empty unknown parameter : |fake=", which is clearly wrong. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:06, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi, Jonesey95. You're correct, I should have first tested this. I have fixed this error, while the second message is now displayed correctly (see e.g. here). --TadejM my talk 04:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Because these modules are used in millions of pages, we nearly always accumulate fixes in the sandbox versions of the modules, test them adequately, and then deploy changes in batches every few months. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Noted, thank you. --TadejM my talk 06:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @TadejM, you are new around these parts. Please generally avoid editing the live CS1 modules. They are transcluded sufficiently many times where sandboxed edits are the default action and even simple-looking edits may cause undesirable behavior. Izno (talk) 22:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The first of those edits highlights an oversight on my part. The message key archived-missing is referenced only once in Module:Citation/CS1 at line 3705. That line and the next line do nothing because arch_text is not used after it has been set in 3705 and possibly modified in 3706. Those two lines are leftovers from the transition from when some error messages appeared in the midst of the rendered citation to the current state where all error messages appear at the end of the rendered citation. I have deleted the archived-missing k/v pair from Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox and the two lines from Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    i18n date handling

    At Template talk:ISBN § is isbn restricted to english numerals there is a link to an article at the Kannada wikipedia (kn:ಚದುರಂಗದ ನಿಯಮಗಳು). At the bottom of that article there are a couple of Lua script errors. These errors occur because of |year=೧೯೭೭ (1977) and |year=೧೯೯೨ (1992). At line 335 in kn:Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation, there is this: tonumber(input.year). That works fine so long as input.year is written as Arabic numerals. Kannada numerals are not Arabic numerals so the call to tonumber() returns nil. I think that I have fixed that in our sandbox and replacing make_COinS_date() at kn.wiki with our version of the function seems to support that.

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Further to this, I have figured out how to get MediaWiki to supply non-English digits for wikis, like kn.wiki, that might write dates like |date=೧೬ ಮಾರ್ಚ್ ೨೦೨೩ (16 March 2023). This particular functionality is disabled at en.wiki.

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Calculated archive-date

    Given that there is code now (I think, as discussed above) to look for a mismatch in archive-date and the date based on the archive-url, it would seem that the next step is to allow for the archive-date to not be present *if* the archive-date is calculatable from the archive-url. What would be issues with that? Would it slow down the pages? Naraht (talk) 13:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, it would slow down pages. We would need to benchmark on a representative page or two.
    Besides that:

    There's an argument to be made (which I think has been made previously) that we should just support auto-archive dates for those archivers that have the date in their URL, but if a archiver should change how their URL structure, we could be left with a lot of archive URLs without dates. Which could feasibly be cleaned up easily either way at that time, I suppose, we'd just need to differentiate between pre- and post-change somehow, if it ever came to that. I don't think archive.org is likely to change like that either way, so definitely something to consider. Izno (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

    Izno (talk) 18:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    IMO this will cause unintended consequences not save much effort rather create extra efforts elsewhere. So many tools and processes depend on the existence of this argument. If the argument is missing is this because it's in the URL, and if so how do you parse the URL when there are 20+ archive providers with many variations - huge programming effort most won't bother with. Or is it because it's not in the URL and the missing argument is an error. Another hazzard is people will avoid adding the argument if they don't have to, and pretty soon they are not adding the argument even for URLs that require it - how do you teach people they need it for one case but not another - lots of errors will be introduced. -- GreenC 21:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Possible step. An additional argument (archive-durl?) which can be used, which will be an alias to archive-url *but* will indicate that the date can be extracted by a bot which will replace archive-durl with archive-url and archive-date appropriately.Naraht (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I would oppose this change. In addition to GreenC's comments, I can see a situation where a citation currently links to an archive at archive.today from date X, which would require the inclusion of the |archive-date=, but someone comes along and substitutes a better link from archive.org from date Y. Because the latter wouldn't require the explicit date, we could end up with a mis-match if that editor doesn't also remove or update |archive-date= from X to Y.
    The proposal also presumes stability in the archive URL format from these third-parties, something we cannot assume now or in the future. The current scheme is the simplest and best option. Imzadi 1979 → 18:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    RFC on whether citing maps and graphs is original research

    Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RFC on using maps and charts in Wikipedia articles. Rschen7754 15:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Edit request

    Please add hatnote {{for|the cleanup template|Template:Cleanup press release}} on the above template to distinguish between {{Cleanup press release}}, as noted in this RM. Thanks, The Night Watch (talk) 14:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @The Night Watch: plus Added to Template:Cite press release/doc, which is not protected. GoingBatty (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Original publisher

    When a publisher purchases a work from another publisher and reprints it, should the citation show the original publisher? Does the answer depend on whether it is a reprint or a revision? Is it appropriate to use |orig-date= for the purpose, given that there is no |orig-publisher= parameter? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I would list the publisher of the edition you've consulted. If you consult the original work from the original publisher, then cite that. If you've consulted the edition by the new publisher, cite them. WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies. Imzadi 1979 → 19:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's a reprint, giving the original year and publisher might help readers in verifying the citation if they have access to the original work; e.g.: Example title. new publisher. 2020 [1905 original publisher].. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Give the citation to the work you are actually looking at. The reason is that the page numbering may be different on another edition or by another publisher. We cite the original date so people know how up-to-date the source is. If you want to help the reader find a copy, give them an OCLC. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there a way to obtain the OCLC given the ISBN? --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Special:BookSources; the 'Find this book at WorldCat' link under the Online databases heading.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:01, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Another generic title

    Hello, can you add "Detect browser settings" as a generic title. Currently, 27 instances. Keith D (talk) 00:04, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Potential improvement: automatic style choice

    Our citation templates are smart enough to know when an article has a {{use mdy dates}} or {{use dmy dates}} directive, and automatically fix up date formats to be consistent with that. They are also smart enough to know how to change between citation style 1 and citation style 2, using the |mode= parameter. However, they don't seem to have a way of setting that mode for a whole article at once. I am constantly finding myself adding cs1-format citations to a cs2-format article, or cs2-format citations to a cs1-format article, and then having to go back and make another edit to make it consistent again. And I am even more frequently finding articles where other editors have not taken that care and the citations are not in a consistent format. Would it be possible to define some kind of article-wide directive, like the date format directives, that these templates could see and respect? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I question why we don't merge the two styles together so that they provide the same output formatting. Then it wouldn't matter which template someone used to create a citation. To that end, I nominate using CS2's commas and capitalization scheme with CS1's terminal period. Then it wouldn't matter if someone used {{citation}} or {{cite book}} to create a citation to a book. Imzadi 1979 → 22:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I suggested that at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 54 § auto date formatting using a template {{cs1 config}}. You also suggested it later in that same discussion. I noted then that the response to those suggestions was underwhelming. I periodically think about it for certain parameters: |display-authors= (and other display name parameters) so that all name lists are limited to n displayed names, |mode= as discussed above, and |name-list-style= so that all name lists have the same style.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    {{cite AV media}}: Empty citation (help) - Audio media: Explanation and Examples, please

    It would be helpful if more explanation and examples were provided on the Template:Cite AV media help page. It took a lot of trial, error, web searches, and time to use {{cite AV media}} to cite a song on the B-side of a vinyl singles album on the page Truck Drivin' Man (Lynyrd Skynyrd song). I searched for more information on using the template but did not find any.

    Questions I had included: (1) Should the composer and lyricist of the song be included, and if so, should their roles be placed in parentheses after their names? (2) Should the producer or others involved in creating the recording be named, and if so, should their roles be placed in parentheses after their names? (3) Should the fact that the song recording being referenced is a "single" be cited? (4) *How do I indicate the medium is a 7" vinyl record? (5a) If I were to cite a song from an album, how do I include the name of the album in the citation (and I'm assuming it should be included, right?)? (5b) And, how would I include the track number?

    *Type: Under Parameters-Description-Title, the "type" parameter explanation says, "Use one of the following as applicable: Motion picture, Television production, Videotape, DVD, Blu-ray, Trailer, CD, Radio broadcast, Podcast." Options for vinyl or cassette are not listed. (I discovered that using "Vinyl" worked).

    The first example of the parameters includes the parameter "people", then later in the article the parameter "others" as well as parameters including the term "author" are very briefly introduced. This is confusing and is related to the questions that I had.

    -Thank you.


    Dogsgopher (talk) 19:59, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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