Talk:Persians

PERSIAN PEOPLE ARE IRANIAN PEOPLE

Article is so convoluted it makes no sense. Article needs a complete overhaul, one hopefully that puts to rest the idea that "Persian" people aren't just plain old fashioned Iranians.

Norwegians don't call themselves 'Vikings' and Italians don't call themselves 'Romans'. I think I pretty much made my point.

Changes to link

Consider changing ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[Essex University]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref> to ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[University of Essex]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref>

Sorry, didn't work as intended. Consider changing the publisher parameter from Essex University to University of Essex

Picture dispute

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@LouisAragon and Rye-96: I am calling out your callous, and outright unprofessional edits to the image gallery attached to this page, which for the most part, lack any scholarly merit (and perhaps stem from pedantic personal motivations). The removed image of course, is a 17th century fresco illustrating a Persian tavern-keeper; holding a flagon of wine, originally installed at the Abbasi hotel in Isfahan. Its the same image attached to the "Culture of Iran" page here on Wikipedia. Now unless you have any substantive reasons for removing this content, and by substantive allow me to emphasize on the phrase "scholarly", then speak your mind, or forever refrain from removing the image. Otherwise we may need to escalate this further. May I need to remind you that wikipedia is a neutral platform for the benefit of the public domain and not a cause for settling personal issues. Edit: @LouisAragon: you have went ahead and re-edited the image for the fourth time. Express your concerns here, instead of moving around my update, or standby for admin. You don't seem to be interested in good faith discussion. Edit II: 22:49, 8 August 2018 (EST) @Mithraeum: I did undo you because, like I did mention in my edit, that was certainly not a picture of a “Persian woman”. Or at least not that we could prove it. Bear in mind that this article is about the ethnic group known as the Persian people, and whatever we are supposed to give as their heritage on this article is supposed to be about them, and not all of the people of a country that was once called Persia. Besides, the gallery already had four images, so I found that image to be unneeded. So, I was wondering, what explanation can you give us for this other than that I shouldn’t “remove images without citation” and “follow rules or face repercussions”, because I neither understand that nor this one: From: Wikipedia <wiki@wikimedia.org> Date: Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM Subject: Wikipedia email from user "Mithraeum" To: Rye-96 <[redacted]> DO NOT delete images without proper citation on a protected article EVER again! You understand? I'll have ZERO tolerance for it. -- This email was sent by user "Mithraeum" on the English Wikipedia to user "Rye-96". (...) By the way, is a “citation” for removing an image given here in your earlier edit? Because I have yet to know about that. —Rye-96 (talk) 17:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC) @LouisAragon and Rye-96: This is precisely the point, you seem to carry your own convoluted notions of what " Persian ethnicity" should look like, which is not within the purview of this page. But let us recap how you got here: first you remove the image because it allegedly does not portray a Persian female, then you remove it again claiming it was "overpopulating" the gallery (all the while your buddy Ryan is adding more images to it) and now you claim it does not portray an ethnic Persian in the first place! This last one is the most peculiar point... I mean even if we're to give you the benefit of doubt, and consider you're merely under-educated on the topic or excessively pedantic, the issue with respect to ethnicity is so bizarre and out-of-place it makes one's head scratch?!!! My man, have you not ever met a Persian before!? Let us thank the divinity then that your personal senses do not dictate facts; otherwise half the Persian history would be removed with only few clicks! I digress... The actual fresco dates back to the 17th century. The scene is still decorating the walls of Shah Abbasi Hotel in Isfahan along with other miniatures depicting dancing women and tavern-keepers. As much as you may hate to admit, wine, and women are as much part of Persian ethnicity as statues portraying men. I am not responding to your "threats" none-sense, largely because we both know you vandalized my personal page and have been combative throughout. But allow me to say that when images are removed without explanation, expect other members to cite you the rules. In any event, I find this part of your discussion a red-herring and entirely unrelated to the subject: which involves you and friend removing an image you don't like, and failing to provide proper reasons for doing so. 14:36, 10 of August (EST) Not sure where you pull the "re-edited the image for the fourth time" nonsense from. Rye-96 reverted you on one occassion,[1] I reverted you on two occassions.[2]-[3] And now admin Favonian as well.[4] You are being severely disruptive; You threatened user:Rye-96 the very first time your incorrect edit was reverted.[5] It seems you also tried to threaten him off-wiki (see above) The caption you added to the image, "Persian woman" was incorrect.[6] Now you suddenly state here that its a Persian tavern keeper? You are edit-warring against numerous users on this page.[7] You were warned twice for that, by two separate users, but you instantly removed both messages from your talk page.[8]-[9] You left a patronizing message on my user page[10] You added your talk page comments on no-less than three occassions inside an old discussion at the top of this talk page. When I tried to fix it for you,[11] you reverted me and "threatened to contact admins".[12] I then left you a good faith message on your talk page, explaining "why" your comments were added on the wrong spot, but you removed it instantly.[13] After removing my message from your talk page, you went ahead and re-inserted your talk page comments inside old discussions located at the top of this talk page (accompanied by more unsubstantiated "admin threats").[14] - LouisAragon (talk) 19:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC) Oh, and I noticed you made other WP:TENDENTIOUS edits in the recent past as well, such as here, where you added unsourced content. You seem to have major misconceptions about Wikipedia and its policies in general. Looking at the compelling evidence, I wonder whether you're actually here to build this encyclopedia according to the guidelines. "I am not responding to your "threats" none-sense (...)" Another big no-no. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC) He just removed the second warning issued by admin Black Kite as well: "Don't issue threats on my talk page". - LouisAragon (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC) @LouisAragon and Rye-96: This isn't really going anywhere. You have shown little interest to actually come up with substantive reasons as to why the image should be removed, other than circling around the same misguided personal biases. Now you're citing an older edit on another page, involving a passage from Encylopedia Iranica that lacks proper citation. This isnt relevant to why the image here has been moved? What's your aim here? I am bumping this for third party opinion. The aim of the exercise here is to expand this page to include more accurate and less bias content. We aren't having a counselling session here. 16:00, 10 of August (EST)' @Mithraeum: You add a random Safavid painting describing it as depicting a “Persian woman” and then accuse me of carrying my “own convoluted notions of what ‘Persian ethnicity’ should look like” and favoring men’s images over women’s? I don’t see how that would help you with anything here. I didn’t threaten, and I did leave an explanatory summary on removing that image, the same way you did so regarding your removal of an earlier image that I mentioned above. You were the one who then needed to defend their addition and you chose to threaten me instead. Reasons have been given and you have been reverted by multiple users. It’s just that somebody has “ZERO tolerance” for it. —Rye-96 (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC) Mithraeum, I'm going to leave this here for all to see: stop threatening, stop insulting, stop condescending. If you're wondering where we draw the line, it's sort of right behind you since you have crossed it a few times already--in fact you did so in your very first post here. One more thing: sign your messages on talk pages. It's not hard. And if you want a third opinion: if you want to argue for the inclusion of some image, first you need to prove that that image is what you say it is: a picture of a woman (and you don't count as a secondary source). Without that, there is nothing. Drmies (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC) @LouisAragon and Rye-96: Its not a painting, its an image of a fresco in miniature style. Its a prominent late-Safavid piece and attached to the Culture of Iran page here on Wikipedia. It follows other familiar pieces like the one here. You've removed the image without explanation on multiple occasions and now wonder why I sent you that email? Precisely for this reason! I mean what do you expect when you vandalize pages? Recall, that I even changed the term from woman, to Persian Tavern Keeper to avoid any controversy, but you removed that later version as well! Goes to show how dedicated you've been to censoring content. Very clear personal motivation if you ask me. We have yet to hear a coherent reason for why this image is constantly being taken down, precisely because there are none! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mithraeum (talk • contribs)

Persian is synonym for Iranian -- Revision is needed

Historically Iran is known as PERSIA and from the 6th century until 1935 the official name of the country was Persia (Perse in French and Persien in German). So the adjective Persian in English all people who live in Persia (or Iran). So the first paragraph of the article which says The Persians are an Iranian ethnic group that make up over half the population of Iran is not completely true. This introduction should be revised and re-written. Please check out various encyclopaedias and dictionaries; they all have mentinoed PERSIAN is used for 'inhabitants of Persia' not just for those who are ethnically Persian who those who are Persian-speaker. we may change the title of the article to 'Persian-Speaking People".--Sarajoon2018 (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sarajoon2018: There are other ethnicities in Iran besides Persian people. There are also Persian people outside of Iran, as shown in this article. "Iranian" is used to cover Persian people as well as related ethnic groups, such as the Lurs. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

They're not synonyms though. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Prof. Ehsan Yarshater, the most celebrated scholar in this field has already eplained this issue very well. Persia and Iran are synonym. The country was just renamed in 1935. Check out Prof. Yarshater article here. So I do not know why you are going to give a wrong impression that Persia is different than Iran. --Sarajoon2018 (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Not gonna read anything from that blog. Iranian =/= Persian, it doesn't take much knowledge to know that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:34, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

It is not a 'blog'. It is an article in the academic magaine IRANIAN STUDIES and the author is Prof. Ehsan Yarshater who is the most celebrated scholar in the filed. Please try to be open to the historical facts and do not just your personal opinion. Thanks.--Sarajoon2018 (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

he source you provided is not dealing with Persians or Iranians, it’s about the name of the country.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Iran => Demonym(s) => Iranian, Persian (historically). So it's not a synonym for Iranian anymore. Plus your suggestion could introduce new problems. There are already users and IP-users who try to remove Iranian and Persian terms from a considerable number of articles because they have no idea about these terms or they think ethnolinguistic terms like Iranian and Persian are equal to Iran and Persia. They even don't try to read this article or Iranian peoples. Also your concern is explained here: Persian_people#History_of_usage --Wario-Man (talk) 08:19, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

@Sarajoon2018: This article is about the Persian ethno-linguistic group, and not the inhabitants of "Persia" as an exonym for "Iran". I think that's very clear. It's like how every inhabitant of Germany is "German" by nationality, but only 80% of Germany's population are ethnically German. The Persians, as an ethnic group, do make up only some half of Iran's population, and this is what the listed sources do confirm.
—Rye-96 (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Re Germany - that is nonsense on two fronts: "every inhabitant of Germany is "German" by nationality" - NO, 10/80 million do not have nationality, and "only 80% of Germany's population are ethnically German" - NO, c. 20% of the citizens have some "immigrant" background, but the majority of these are precisely "ethnic Germans" coming from further east. Germany does recognise internal non-ethnic-German minorities, but these are tiny - well under a million. On the wider point, the article should deal with the different meanings "Persian people" can have, even if the main coverage deals with just one of the meanings of the term. Johnbod (talk) 23:08, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Persian=/=Iranian in an ethnolinguistic meaning. Persian and Iranian can be interpreted as being synonyms in a sense of citizenship. for example, an Algerian immigrant in France can abandon his Algerian citizenship and take the French one, this makes him a French citizen but not an ethnic French. So, when Iran was called Persia, citizens of Persia could be called Iranians (As Persia and Iran are synonyms), but only in regard of their citizenships. Best regards.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't think this article lacks info about other meanings of "Persian". Mentioned both historical and modern usages, plus other terms like Tajik. However those info could be expanded to include more details. For instance, do you guys think Ajam could be mentioned on this article or not? Or ethnic groups like Ajam of Bahrain and Ajam of Iraq? --Wario-Man (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I mean.. I think the other commentators did notice what I meant by "every inhabitant of Germany", Johnbod. Don't think those explanations were necessary. But yeah, this was a good addition and I thank you for that. The article did actually mention the other historical usages of the term. It only had yet to do so in the lede. I, too, think the Achomi (Ajam) should be mentioned within this article, Wario-Man.
—Rye-96 (talk) 23:22, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 15 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. The original close of "no consensus" was reviewed and has been overturned. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:44, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

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Persian people → Persians – "Persians" redirects here. other ethnicity articles follow this formula "ethnic name+s", so this one should not be different. persian is not a meta ethnicity, bunch of sub ethnic groups or nationality and using people or peoples is wrong in this case. GGBarBar (talk) 09:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

• Agreed. We should use the same pattern here.
  —Rye-96 (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 02:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
• Ambiguity with Persian cat? 125.9.31.50 (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
• Also ambiguous with Persian carpet. The word “Persian” does more work than most ethnic names in describing more than just people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.24.30 (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NCET and WP:PLURAL: "If a plural title without the word 'people' is available, it is almost invariably chosen; e.g., Bangladeshis is consistently preferred to Bangladeshi people". To those who consider ambiguity above, I'd suggest that they take another look at the proposal; the proposal is not to move the article to Persian, which would be ambiguous, but to Persians, which can only ever refer to the people, and already redirects here. RGloucester — ☎ 22:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

• The article Persian cat uses the word "Persians" to refer to the cats 39 times. 125.9.31.50 (talk) 11:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support Per the above rationale.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:25, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support as the requester GGBarBar (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

  Please do not remove comments added to this discussion in good faith, particularly since you initiated it, and also please consider learning the other rules of move discussions, such as not supporting your own request. 125.9.31.50 (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

  I request help from anyone else monitoring this discussions as GGBarBar continues to remove my comments. Note that this is also not a clear primary topic by page views: [15]. Although this does not address the usage of "Persians" specifically. GGBarBar, I will escalate this if you continue to remove comments added in good faith. Please read WP:Talk and stop violating talk page guidelines. 125.9.31.50 (talk) 11:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

  He has acknowledged my warning on his talk page. Dicklyon (talk) 15:08, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support - per arguments above. As for ambiguity, a hat note can point to our article on the cats. The ethnicity is the primary topic. Blueboar (talk) 11:42, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

To above ip the ip's comments do not make any sense at all. there are many animals, creatures, and things that use a "nation/ethnic" as a part of their name. Arabian horse uses "Arabian" and "Arabians" to refer to a horse breed. you can find dozens of other similar cases. your whole point is based on a cat breed named "persian cat" which has zero thing to do with an ethnic named persian. by your logic, we should not use Germans because there is a dog named German Shepherd and some people call that dog breed just as Germans. that "Persian carpet" argument is ridiculous and laughable as hell. what about Turkish coffee?!?! we should not use turkish for turkish people because a coffee named turkish?!!?GGBarBar (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@GGBarBar: I would strongly advise you to stop harrassing him/her and keep a nice tone. --HistoryofIran (talk) 04:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

keep your advice for yourself. are you a stalker or what? where was harassment? oh and you came here to just advise me without trying to participate in this discussion? are you obsessed with me?GGBarBar (talk) 06:41, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

What a sad, little individual you are. Grow up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:11, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Ambiguous. Try a google image search, cats, followed by ancient Persian artifacts. The threshold for a redirect is far lower that for a retitling decision, ""Persians" redirects here" is not a good argument. Some people's quest for ultra-brevity in titling is an obsession without reader benefit. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

you ignored my whole argument and only focused on "Persians" redirect here"? read my reply to that ip. google image search results is not a valid point. google would change its search engine algorithms at any time, making them more intelligent. many wikipedia articles were "ethnicity + people" and now they are "ethnicity+s". nothing is ambiguous or unhelpful but actually we try to standardize them and it will be useful for the readers.GGBarBar (talk) 06:48, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose because "Persian" is also an adjective or nationality and it is an adjective format, therefore it can include more than just people, unlike for example, Arab which the adjective would be Arabian or Arabic. "Persian" is similar to "Assyrian" etc.--SharabSalam (talk) 11:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Stupid move. If “Persians” were not ambiguous with cats and other topics, there would be no need for the hatnotes. The hatnotes are more clutter than the word “people”, the removal of “people” from the title merely creates whitespace in the title, not to mention the creation of linking uncertainties. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Persians listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Persians. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:39, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Huge misleading information

The definition by which Oxford dictionary defines Persians :. a native or inhabitant of ancient or modern Persia (or Iran), or a person of Persian descent. This article needs a serious revision — Preceding unsigned comment added by مهردادمهرانفر (talk • contribs) 15:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

what does this mean

the latter likely having migrated southward and transferred the name of the region with them to what would become Persis

the whole sentence it too long and hard to understand

The ninth-century BC Neo-Assyrian inscription of the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, found at Nimrud, gives it in the Late Assyrian forms Parsua and Parsumaš as a region and a people located in the Zagros Mountains, the latter likely having migrated southward and transferred the name of the region with them to what would become Persis (Persia proper, i.e., modern-day Fars), and that is considered to be the earliest attestation to the ancient Persian people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.179.9.246 (talk) 16:36, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2020

| religions = Shia Islam (predominantly), Irreligion, Judaism, Christianity, Bahá'í Faith, Buddhism, Sunni Islam, Sufism, and Zoroastrianism.

AT Inkognito (talk) 13:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Article currently makes no mention of Buddhism. Would need a WP:RS showing it's significant enough to mention. – Thjarkur (talk) 14:16, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Two religions are missing. Judaism and Buddhism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AT Inkognito (talk • contribs) 18:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Source for Buddhism: Mostafa Vaziri (2012). Buddhism in Iran: An Anthropological Approach to Traces and Influences. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 9781137022936— Preceding unsigned comment added by AT Inkognito (talk • contribs) 19:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

And please add Judaism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AT Inkognito (talk • contribs) 19:42, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@AT Inkognito: can you provide a page number/page numbers for the book you're using as a source? And is there a source for Judaism? The reference desk may be able to help you find sources. (Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request) Seagull123 Φ 12:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOS37bTjvbA —> Judaism

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/judeo-persian-vi-the-pahlavi-era-1925-1979

https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Iran-Anthropological-Approach-Influences-ebook/dp/B009C8TOT4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=9781137022936&qid=1597773167&sr=8-1 —> Buddhism

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/17/iran-confiscates-buddha-statues

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/buddhism-i

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AT Inkognito (talk • contribs) 18:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

This article is about the Persian ethnic group, not about citizens of Iran, so this would need source discussing Persians. Pre-Islamic history is not relevant here since we're talking about the people alive today. The Guardian article says that the statues are popular but says that the people buying them aren't Buddhist. – Thjarkur (talk) 10:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

So, according to your thesis, there are no Persians today who belong to the Jewish or Buddhist faith? Shouldn't the two religions Judaism and Buddhism, be treated in the same way as Zoroastrianism?

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Two religions for the Persians are missing. Judaism and Buddhism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AT Inkognito (talk • contribs) 22:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. 'Again - FlightTime (open channel) 22:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

misunderstanding

Persian is not really an ethnicity. In the Persian language you cannot say "I am Persian.". You can say you are Persian speaking. Compare it to Mandarin or Hindi. You cannot say you are Mandarin, you cannot say you are Hindi, but you can say you are Mandarin speaking and Hindi speaking. Persian is overused in the West. Everything Iranian became Persian in the West. Persian is solely a province and a language but not really an ethnic identity. Strictly speaking, people who only speak Persian have no specific ethnic identity. They are simply just Iranians who simply identify with their city or region (Tehrani, Shirazi, Esfehani, etc.), but they don't call themselves "Persian" since there is not even an equivalent to Persian in the Persian language in the ethnic sense, since it only refers to a province and language, as I already mentioned.

Persians culture

A group of historians are trying to link the culture of this ethnic group to the Greeks. But according to my study, there were actually two separate cultures that came together. I think it is necessary to point out exactly the separation of these two cultures. Also, This ethnic group is influenced (Significantly) by neighboring and western cultures. 95.181.236.137 (talk) 16:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Persian people outside of Iran

As a Tajik, the Persian people outside of Iran have no justification in this article. I was looking at Muhammad Al-Bukhari’s page on Wikipedia and it said he was a Persian. I clicked on the link and it showed he was Iranian. I was confused as to how is all Persian heritage claimed by Iran only and not Afghanistan or Tajikistan. His last name is Bukhara (a city of Persian culture in Central Asia which what is Uzbekistan). I find the same issue with other Persian figures. I call for under Persians that Afghan Tajiks, Tajiks of Tajikistan, and Tajiks of Uzbekistan be added. Persian does not only mean Iranian. Eskanderi (talk) 13:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, thats a violation of Wikipedia's original research guideline in addition to being a forum-like synthesis. Please show us a reliable source which refers to numbers/populations of "Persians" (that precise word) in modern-day Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

It is also found on Wikipedia already that Persian refers to Tajiks as well and Tajiks are known as "Eastern Persians". Eskanderi (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Richard Foltz, a scholar on the Tajik subject and an author of a book on the Tajik people, confirms from historical accounts that Tajiks are Persian speaking people of Central Asia. They can trace their lineage to the Persian Sunni empire: the Samand Empire which was vital in the reemergence of Persian culture after Arab invasions. The Samanid Empire was located in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan." Richard Foltz traces the complex linguistic, cultural and political history of the Tajiks, a Persian-speaking Iranian ethnic group from the modern-day Central Asian states of Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Uzbekistan."

Richard Foltz also indicates that there is no pure groups in the world today and that people intermixing is what makes up every individual today. Hence, Persian is an ethnic-linguistic term in which people follow a unified culture and language. Many Persian historical figures and movements also did not take place in current day Iran. For example, Foltz agrees with scholars that Zoroastrianism began in Central Asia or modern day Afghanistan."Probably most of the Muslims who migrated to Central Asia after the conquest were Persians" "By the way the birthplace of Zoroastrianism was not Iran, but Central Asia, although it was in Iran that it became a state religion." Pertaining to language, Afghanistan's official language is Persian (Dari) and Tajikistan's official language is Persian (Tajik) "Scholars recognize three major dialect divisions of Persian: Farsi, or the Persian of Iran, Dari Persian of Afghanistan, and Tajik, a variant spoken Tajikistan in Central Asia."

TheJoshuaProject, a journal for the study of minority groups, confirms Tajiks are descendants of Persian peoples. "A Mediterranean sub-group of the Caucasian race, modern Tajiks are descended from Persian peoples.""An old Turkish expression, "Tajik" is synonymous with "Persian". They have always spoken Persian (speaking the related Dari dialect in Afghanistan) whereas other Persian language speakers in Central Asia adopted the language." Tajik was used as a word to distinguish the Persians from the Turks and Arabs of Central Asia.

For my next point, I need to establish the definition of ethnicity. It is stated as "a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like". I would like to highlight that ethnicity is a group of people bounded by culture, language, and customs. Tajiks speak Persian, celebrate Persian holidays (Nowrooz) (Yalda night), celebrate Persian poets, practice Persian customs (Espand), and have cities within their countries that were vital to Persian culture (Herat, Kabul, Balkh, Samarkand, Bukhara).

Aside from Iran, the country of Afghanistan uses the Persian calendar or the Solar Hijri calendar.

Ibn Battuta, world explorer and scholar of the old world, referred to Persians in Kabul as Afghans

Persian dynasties that emerged or contained countries of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan. (Achaemenid, Sassanian, Samanids, Saffarids) These empires contained the Central Asian countries and some even originated in Central Asia but are claimed to be Persian. Unfortunately when you click on the link, it shows only Iranian influence and not the Tajiks of Tajikistan and Afghanistan's culture. With these facts, historical accounts, customs, and commonality there is proof Tajiks should be considered Persian and labeled as such on the Persian page. The populations of those groups should also be indicated in the demographics of the Persian page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eskanderi (talk • contribs) 16:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

*countries celebrating Persian new year *Shab e Yalda celebrated by Tajiks *Espand Persian custom practiced by Tajiks * Several cities not in Iran (Herat, Bukhara, Samarkand, Ghazni etc..)

• "It is also found on Wikipedia already that Persian refers to Tajiks as well and Tajiks are known as "Eastern Persians"."

Wikipedia can't be used a source, read WP:NOTSOURCE. Tajiks are recorded as Tajiks in modern-day Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Russia, etc. Not as Persians. Persians only refers to Iran, as unfortunate as it might be. The two terms, together with the word "Tats", were used interchangeably in the past, but not nowadays. This is well established in academic works.

• "Richard Foltz, a scholar on the Tajik subject and an author of a book on the Tajik people (...)"

Not a single part of Foltz's work refers to modern-day Tajiks as "Persians".

• "TheJoshuaProject, a journal for the study of minority groups (...)"

Not a reliable source, see:[16]

"Aside from Iran, the country of Afghanistan uses the Persian calendar or the Solar Hijri calendar. "

The link doesn't say that Persians are found in Afghanistan.

• "Ibn Battuta, world explorer and scholar of the old world, referred to Persians in Kabul as Afghans."

In historic usage, "Persians" were found in many other places in the world. Persians, as a modern-day "group" however, per WP:RS, only refers to a fraction of the population of Iran (called Persia pre-1935).

You're trying to push for the inclusion of WP:OR material into this article, which is not allowed per Wikipedia's guidelines. Turkmens, Hazaras, Azeris, Tabasarans also celebrate Nowruz; they are still not referred to as "Persians" by reliable sources. As for supposed "confusion" when reading about historic Persian figures on Wikipedia; the point is made very clear (supported by reliable references) in the lede of this article:

"In contemporary terminology, people of Persian heritage native specifically to present-day Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan are referred to as Tajiks, whereas those in the Caucasus (primarily in the present-day Republic of Azerbaijan and the Russian federal subject of Dagestan), albeit heavily assimilated, are referred to as Tats.[18][19] However, historically, the terms Tajik and Tat were used as synonymous and interchangeable with Persian.[18] Many influential Persian figures hailed from outside Iran's present-day borders to the northeast in Central Asia and Afghanistan and to a lesser extent to the northwest in the Caucasus proper.[20][21] In historical contexts, especially in English, "Persians" may be defined more loosely to cover all subjects of the ancient Persian polities, regardless of ethnic background."

Looks like a whole alinea in the lede is dedicated to the relationship with the Tajiks and Tats. It is also thoroughly explained in the body of the article[17] as far as WP:DUE is concerned. In short: unless user:Eskanderi can show a reliable source which shows that Persians are found in modern-day Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan, we're done here. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. With all due respect I’m pretty sure I posted sources that claimed the word Tazhik meant Persian. In fact, Persian as an ethnic group doesn’t exist in the Persian language and has become a new form to refer to ethnicity. Instead most Persians, even the ones in Iran are called “Farsi-Zaban” or Persian speaking. I also want to highlight the Wikipedia in Persian states Tajiks are Persian. With due respect, it’s kind of difficult to prove my point to a non Persian. I am a Tajik and our whole culture is Persian and it’s frustrating when part of our cultural heritage is claimed as Persian in Wikipedia and it’s chosen as only for Iran when in fact Afghanistan and Tajikistan (the two countries with Persian as an official language) have their flags and culture based on Persian culture.

Anyways here is your proof, “The Tajiks of Afghanistan are roughly the same as Eastern Khurusani Persians”“https://www.jstor.org/stable/668975?seq=1 Eskanderi (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I provided proof of words that prove Tajiks of Afghanistan are roughly the same as Persians Eskanderi (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Other Iranic Groups and Very Bizarre Usage of this Term

It should be known that many of the so called Persian peoples of history such as Rumi (descendant of Caliph Abu Bakr), Nezami, and many others have partial ancestry from Arabs who settled in Persia long ago or Kurds, Tajiks, or other Iranian groups, yet these historical figures are always referred to as Persians. So why is it that historically these people from various Iranic ethnicities (I.e. Kurds or Tajiks) are forced to have their historical figures listed as Persians for simply writing their works in Persian, but today the Persian label is being limited to one country, Iran. Biased and POV much? Extremely. Historynerdboy (talk) 08:00, 21 February 2021 (UTC)