Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vrezh

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Deletion concerns appear to have been addressed. (non-admin closure) Alpha_Quadrant ^(talk) 02:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vrezh

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The reason this article was put up for deletion is because of the fact that most of the information it purports to give details about comes from unreliable or generally vague sources. Most of the sources make it clear that this organization was identified solely by the Azerbaijani government (some of them also have a discernible affiliation with Azerbaijan, such as Charles van der Leeuw, who has been criticized in some circles for writing biased works). Citing the information it and only it has provided, this terror network was allegedly created in 1989 in the Soviet Union as a branch of an Armenian political group (the ARF) that had no presence, legal nor physical, in the country. This group is not cited by any major entity (such as the US Department of State) which registers and follows up on the activity of terrorists organization and, given the tense atmosphere of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan it is quite probable that the latter created this shadowy organization without any real evidence to back it up. Individuals quickly arrested and executed by the Azerbaijani government for a bus bombing in 1991 were said to have belonged to Vrezh but the politically charged climate of the time does not give its decisions too much of an air of credibility.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Needless to say, opposing. The article is sourced to reliable sources and is clearly causing discomfort of the filing user. First off, three sources unaffiliated with the Azerbaijani government state the fact about past existence of the organization called Vrezh (see the article). Secondly, it is somewhat unsurprising that Vrezh was possibly affiliated with ARF since ARF has been known to have militant/terrorist wings attacking civilian targets. Please see Operation Nemesis for example, or other related articles ASALA, JCAG, or just research Google Books for affiliation with ARF (see this for instance), or simply for Armenian terrorism. The organization Vrezh was likely created to commit terrorist attacks before the Nagorno-Karabakh War escalated in 1992. Tuscumbia (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note Please also note that the user requesting the deletion clearly has insincere intent. For instance, see his remark above where he says "...some of them also have a discernible affiliation with Azerbaijan, such as Charles van der Leeuw..." and then take a look at his other statement "...even the two non-Azerbaijani government affiliated sources, van der Leeuw and Bolukbasi, make use of the word allegedly...". I don't think this "contradiction" says anything other than insincerity and bad faith discrediting of authors when necessary. Tuscumbia (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note It's true the ARF did have one or two militant parties affiliated to in the 1970s and '80s (the Justice Commandos, for example), but they all operated outside the territory of the USSR - namely in Europe and Middle East. Operation Nemesis was a plan hatched in the early 1920s and its sole objective was to target those individuals who orchestrated the Armenian Genocide and the massacres of Armenians in the Caucasus. It's hard to imagine how such an organization had gained a foothold in such a repressive country as the USSR and even more difficult to determine how the suspects were apprehended so quickly and their guilt and affiliation established so conclusively. The ARF had been vilified for over seventy years in the USSR and its poor showing in the first presidential election in Armenia demonstrated how little support it had at the time - not in the Soviet Union itself, but in Armenia. Its headquarters was in Athens, Greece. All we have to go on is the word of a country that has perhaps one of the poorest human rights records throughout the world. And please be good enough to note that I distinguish the difference between Azerbaijan (the country) and the Azerbaijani government.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment So, ARF was affiliated with many terrorist activities and cells, be it in Europe, Asia or Americas. I wonder how that was missed in your request for deletion. No need to talk about the last years of USSR where turmoil took hold not only in Caucasus but in some other republics with Islamists in Uzbekistan, Chechens in Northern Caucasus, etc. If journalists like Salatin Askerova were killed along with Soviet servicemen in broad daylight, I have no doubt it was not a problem for a few people to found a secret organization with just a few cells to blow up targets within Azerbaijan. And please, when you even attempt to speak about "poorest human rights", please remember that it was Armenia, where peaceful unarmed protesters were executed by Armenian government troops and where prisoners sleep in Armenian prisons unnoticed by international media.

Back to the sources. All sources in the article are reliable and non-affiliated to Azerbaijan whatsoever, hence no grounds for deletions. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I dont think that Marshal's arguments have any ground. And this isnt the first time he mixes personal interpretation with facts. His argument is based on original research as he continues to criticize all-neutral and all-Azerbaijani sources. The fact is this article is well sourced and its an important subject, there is no ground for deletion. Mursel (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - MarshalBagramyan's presented arguments without having a constructive material on his hand. This is not first time, he does it. He always fan of making stuff up and I can't believe some admin's do support this kind of moves.--NovaSkola (talk) 11:13, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note Can you guys be a little more specific (and try not to copy what the other is saying) by pointing out where exactly I have mixed my personal interpretation with the so-called facts? My statements appeal to logic and what is well-known about the conditions of the USSR and the status of ARF, which unfortunately the sources are not careful enough to identify or question.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:32, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - As his arguments is understanding, he must give great facts. Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 21:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This AFD was apparently never included in the daily logs, which I've now corrected, so consider this a "relist." postdlf (talk) 18:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —SW— ^soliloquize 18:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. —Tom Morris (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.