Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sebastian Elmaloglou

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Merge discussion could be undertaken at the article's talk page if desired. Shimeru 09:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sebastian Elmaloglou

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fails WP:ENT. only 1 notable role for TV series appearance only. LibStar (talk) 05:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. -- N/A 0 05:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- N/A 0 05:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum simply appearing on a notable TV series with cult following does not mean that this individual is automatically notable. I also question his role as "notable" in the video releases due to a lack of evidence. so he fails all 3 criteria of WP:ENT in my opinion, no notable multiple roles (yes we can confirm multiple roles but not necessarily notable), no large fan base of Sebastian and obviously no major contribution to this field. LibStar (talk) 02:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum One may ignore or discount (as the nominator does) that the character of Max Sutherland of Home and Away has his followers. His appearing in multiple episodes of a notable television series AND in 2 feature-length video releases specifically do meet WP:ENT's "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions". The nominator is entitled to an opinion... but then, so are other editors, battlefield aside. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

there is no evidence of a significant role in the 2 videos, please provide. LibStar (talk) 04:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You yourself stated that his role as Max Sutherland was notable. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no, that was for the TV series, and my opinion. you still fail to provide evidence of a significant role in the 2 videos. LibStar (talk) 04:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we know your opinion. How have you decided that the character could be notable in a television series and yet not be so in a film? Catch-22? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

unless some reliable sources report Sebastian's significant role in the videos, we cannot automatically presume it's significant. LibStar (talk) 04:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, Catch-22. Interesting assertion... that while the actor has an admittedly notable role in the series, his role must then be somehow automaticaly non-notable in the two films, if it would conflict with your wish to delete. Sorry. Ain't buying it. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

not automatically non-notable, WP relies on verifiable reliable evidence. on the same token you are assuming automatic notability based on a) home and away having a cult following b) notable role in TV series means notable role in any spin off media. LibStar (talk) 04:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You continue to contend that a character who is notable in a television series cannot possibly be notable in the film series, without proof to the contrary. Shoe on other foot... do your own research to prove your contention that the widely distributed and well-received films based upon a notable television series are not notable. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 05:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And you have again skewed my comments and again ignored my having repeatedly stated that even cursory searches find the character of Max Sutherland of Home and Away has his followers. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 05:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BURDEN relies you to provide evidence to prove notability. you have to admit there is no reliable coverage proving his significant role in the videos. he could be significant but I don't see the evidence. LibStar (talk) 05:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You state 2+2=4 and then say 1+3 "might" equal 4, but demand me doing your math homework for you. Tell ya what... I'll go ask over at Talk: Home and Away for you, if you'd like. They are the fans and have speedier access to what you demand. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 05:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per passing WP:ENT. First for having a notable role in multiple episodes of a notable series which has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following, and second for also having notable roles in 2 full-length video releases based upon that notable series. Article requires expansion and additional sourcing, a surmountable issue that does not require deletion. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

how do you know he has notable roles in the videos, the videos are spin offs of the TV series which the same set of actors and production crew. it's a grey area whether this counts as multiple series. LibStar (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As an actor myself, it is not grey to me. You argument is akin to declaring that the Rocky (film series) is all one project. Had he not been important to script and film, production would have not brought him over for the two non-tv feature-length video films, as they did not include all the series' actors. Notable then is notable now, even with his career having stopped in 2004. Or are you now denying the show's notability, or reversing yourself from your opening statement that his role in the series is notable? Or are you denying its (still) strong cult following? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 02:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following" refers to the individual not the show. there is no evidence that Sebastian Elmaloglou has a cult following, the show he acts on does, but it does not follow that all actors on this show are automatically notable. LibStar (talk) 02:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are not discussing "all actors"... only this one... and you yourself said his role was notable in your opening comments. And "cult following" can apply to individuals OR shows (IE: Rocky Horror Picture Show). And even a modest search finds that Max Sutherland of Home and Away has his followers. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 02:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

read WP:ENT again, it clearly refers to cult following of individual not based on shows/films they've appeared on. using your logic, anyone appearing on Home and Away gets automatic notability. LibStar (talk) 02:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And re-read my comments again. You must have missed where I offered that a modest search finds that Max Sutherland (his character) of Home and Away has his followers. And even without that following, he meets WP:ENT through "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions". The television show is notabe. The video films (IE: other productions) are notable. That becomes "multiple" and meets ENT. Disagree all you wish. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

do you have evidence that he actually played significant roles on the 2 videos? We can verify Sebastian's appearance but I cannot see any evidence of significant roles. LibStar (talk) 03:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Passes WP:ENT. Joe Chill (talk) 00:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

could you please explain how he meets this criterion. thanks. LibStar (talk) 01:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that it would be obvious that it's the same thing as what Schmidt said. Joe Chill (talk) 01:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Everyone seems to get this but the nominator. The notable shows the actor has been on, makes them notable. See how many blue links there are? Those are notable series, thus the actor has a notable career. Dream Focus 03:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

wonder how you stumbled on this one, Dream Focus, read WP:ENT, appearing on a notable series does not equate to automatic notability for every single actor on it. I've already explained how it fails WP:ENT on all 3 subcriteria. LibStar (talk) 03:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going through the new additions to the Rescue Squadron's list. [1] See? This is on it. Micheal already explained it to you, or tried to. Not going to bother repeating what others have already said. Dream Focus 03:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@LibStar: No one except you is trying to drag on and on about "other actors". We are trying to discuss this ONE, and it's been repeatedly explained how he passes WP:ENT. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Currently fails WP:ENT, which requires that the actor have multiple, significant roles in notable productions. There is no indication in the sources provided that this has happened. Arguably, his role as Max Sutherland in the soap opera can be considered a significant role in a single production (multiple episodes of a the same TV show are not considered multiple roles). However, I haven't yet heard an argument that his roles in any of the other productions were significant. Therefore, the article appears to fail the "multiple" part of WP:ENT. SnottyWong talk 22:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - the sources provided are very, very, very marginal: to call them name-drops would be to overstate their substantiality. Fails WP:N by a long margin, and the claim to meet WP:ENT is weak at best. Reyk _YO! 02:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep appears to have significant stage roles in Burnt Piano and Gypsy Boy. For their notability:

Burnt Piano

"Burnt Piano strikes a chord."

Daily Telegraph, 11 March 1999, 288 words, (English)

"Family Tackles Burning Issues"

Sydney Morning Herald , 12 March 1999, 622 words, (English)

"Jangling notes as Piano fails to ignite."

The Australian, 12 March 1999, 680 words, (English)

"Engrossing voyage around Godot."

Sunday Telegraph, 14 March 1999, 380 words, (English)

Gypsy Boy

"Wandering minstrel - Summer Live."

Daily Telegraph, 29 December 2000, 616 words, (English)

"January Is A Time For Fairytales And Gypsies"

Canberra Times, 1 January 2001, 491 words, (English)

"Caravan With Space For Ideas"

Sydney Morning Herald, 8 January 2001, 646 words, (English)

"Carpenter Crafts A Beauty"

Sun Herald, 14 January 2001, 465 words, (English)

That makes the multiple roles asked for. duffbeerforme (talk) 02:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I remember this kid on Home and Away and he was certainly notable at the time. But if you look at his filmography he really not particularly notable. He's hardly Melissa George is he.... He played one charatcer and appeared once or twice elsewhere. But nothing for six years. I'm leaning towards weak delete based on his TV performances but leaning towards weak keep for his stage work and those sources mentioned combined. But he is not exactly an "essential" actor article is he... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep or merge to Home and Away. I was going to suggest only merge because I was treating the H&A films as extensions of the original series, but that is something I cannot know or assume. If the notability of his role in the films is in question, that is a sourcing issue which means it's time for WP:ATD. If it's shown they are essentially extensions of the show, that means he doesn't have notable roles in two notable productions, and he fails WP:ENT and should be merged into H&A's articles. - BalthCat (talk) 00:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.