Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Wilkinson (probate judge)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Phi Alpha Literary Society#Founders. Feel free to merge any usable content from the page history. Also, if someone finds an RS saying that he served in the Colorado state legislature, I'll be happy to reconsider the close. T. Canens (talk) 19:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Robert Wilkinson (probate judge) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Delete due to lack of notability demonstrated through significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Claim of notability is due to being a founder of Phi Alpha Literary Society. The sole reference is a catalog distributed by the Society, which is not considered significant or independent. [Edited to add: Additions made after creation of the AFD discussion indicate that the subject was a member of the Colorado State Legislature. However, this claim is made in membership records of the Illinois College Alumni Fund Association, which is unreliable and fails verification. The State of Colorado does not support this claim.] Cind.amuse 02:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The subject was elected to the Colorado State Legislature as well as Probate Judge of Doniphan County, Kansas. I have added an additional reference, where he is referred to in a book titled "Kansas: a cyclopedia of state history, embracing events, institutions, industries, counties, cities, towns, prominent persons, etc." Italics are mine. John Milito (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The book on prominent persons in Kansas does not list the subject as a prominent person. See comments below. Cind.amuse 19:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per the expansions made after this AFD was started — all state legislators pass WP:POLITICIAN. Nyttend (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. The claim of the subject as state legislator is actually not supported by the State of Colorado. The sole source of this claim is in a Society membership record, which is neither reliable nor independent. Cind.amuse 19:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I certainly agree that state legislators meet the criteria found at WP:POLITICIAN. That said, the only source that indicates that the subject was a member of the legislature is a Society membership record stating "Lawyer. Member of the Colorado Legislature. Probate Judge of Doniphan County, Kansas. A Founder of (P)hi Alpha Society," while no other information or sourcing for this statement is made. The State of Colorado does not provide any documentation or historical records to support this claim. The Society membership record is neither reliable nor independent and cannot be used to establish notability. The book on prominent persons in Kansas does not list the subject as a prominent person. This book includes genealogical listings of prominent individuals in the state of Kansas. The subject (Wilkinson) is merely listed in the profile of Robert Scott Dinsmore, M.D., as his father-in-law. In the record, Wilkinson is simply listed as "Judge Robert Wilkinson, of Troy, Kans." None of the other references provided equates to significant coverage. They merely include his name in a list among others. Considering the founding of a club or society as significant or notable is subjective. Regardless, taking part in an event of this nature does not establish notability. Wikipedia requires significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. The sources provided are not significant, reliable, or independent. Cind.amuse 19:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think we are being a bit hard on the sources here. The record that states "Lawyer. Member of the Colorado Legislature. Probate Judge of Doniphan County, Kansas. A Founder of (P)hi Alpha Society," is not a society membership record, it is published by the Illinois College Alumni Fund Association, and the majority of the people noted in that book are not members. I concede the fact that the book on prominent persons in Kansas does not write about Wilkinson as the primary subject, most likely because he is not a native of the state of Kansas. It does tell a bit more that just his name, though: "Judge Robert Wilkinson, of Troy, Kans. Judge Wilkinson was one of the early attorneys of Doniphan county, and served as probate judge of that county about twenty years. He was a native of Jacksonville, Ill., and came to Kansas soon after the Civil war. Mrs. Dinsmore was born at Black Hawk, Colo., where her parents had removed in the early sixties." WP:BIO states: "The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded."" I would think that the author of a book about Kansas taking the time to mention the fact that this man was a founder of an organization 67 years earlier in Illinois points to notability. John Milito (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. It is certainly not my desire to frustrate you, but rather to encourage compliance with Wikipedia's notability guidelines. The Kansas record is merely a genealogical record of Robert Scott Dinsmore, presented by the Kansas State Historical Society. These family histories attempt to list nearly everyone of genealogical, rather than historical prominence. Mention in a genealogical source isn't a measure of notability at all, but solely a measure of usefulness for genealogical research. A genealogical reference does not meet the requirements of WP:GNG, since notability is the least of the requirements for being included. Speaking as a professional historian and certified genealogist, I value genealogical records. I am very familiar with the KSHS. That said, genealogical records are not reliable for the purposes of establishing notability on Wikipedia. Regarding the record that states "Lawyer. Member of the Colorado Legislature. Probate Judge of Doniphan County, Kansas. A Founder of (P)hi Alpha Society," published by the Illinois College Alumni Fund Association? The listing is neither significant, reliable, or verifiable. Can you provide a verifiable source to support the claim that the subject was a member of the state legislature? I've searched and have been unable to verify the claim anywhere. Regards, Cind.amuse 00:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I think we are being a bit hard on the sources here. The record that states "Lawyer. Member of the Colorado Legislature. Probate Judge of Doniphan County, Kansas. A Founder of (P)hi Alpha Society," is not a society membership record, it is published by the Illinois College Alumni Fund Association, and the majority of the people noted in that book are not members. I concede the fact that the book on prominent persons in Kansas does not write about Wilkinson as the primary subject, most likely because he is not a native of the state of Kansas. It does tell a bit more that just his name, though: "Judge Robert Wilkinson, of Troy, Kans. Judge Wilkinson was one of the early attorneys of Doniphan county, and served as probate judge of that county about twenty years. He was a native of Jacksonville, Ill., and came to Kansas soon after the Civil war. Mrs. Dinsmore was born at Black Hawk, Colo., where her parents had removed in the early sixties." WP:BIO states: "The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded."" I would think that the author of a book about Kansas taking the time to mention the fact that this man was a founder of an organization 67 years earlier in Illinois points to notability. John Milito (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Founder of one of the earliest debating societies (and it is still going). Nipsonanomhmata (Talk) 10:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Can you offer a policy based recommendation? Being a "founder of one of the earliest debating societies" does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for notability. We need significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Unfortunately, notability for the subject has not been met. Thanks, Cind.amuse 12:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. WP:BIO states: "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." This man founded a society. This society is "highly significant" for several reasons, two of which follow. This organization counts among its members Abraham Lincoln, due to his presentation of a speech on request of the society. In addition, this organization won one of the first intercollegiate debates in the country. John Milito (talk) 05:24, 5 February 2011 (UTC):[reply]
- Comment. Can you offer a policy based recommendation? Being a "founder of one of the earliest debating societies" does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for notability. We need significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Unfortunately, notability for the subject has not been met. Thanks, Cind.amuse 12:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Conditional delete because I was unable to find independent verification or any details about the claim that he served in the Colorado state legislature. If that is confirmed by a state record or other Reliable Source, I will change my opinion to Keep. Merely being one of the seven founders of a notable society does not make the individual separately notable. --MelanieN (talk) 18:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- P.S. This article is part of a WP:Walled garden of articles about the Phi Alpha Literary Society, and IMO the separate articles about the founders should be deleted unless they are shown to be notable for something else. Their mention in the primary article is enough. --MelanieN (talk) 18:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge/redirect to Phi Alpha Literary Society#Founders The article cites several sources about Robert Wilkinson that verifies the information in the article. Per WP:PRESERVE, a merge/redirect to the society he co-founded is not unreasonable. John Milito (talk · contribs) has spent much of his time working on these articles. It would be a shame to delete wholesale his hard work. I concur that most of these subjects do not pass Wikipedia:Notability; however, there is no reason not to place several sentences from each of these articles into Phi Alpha Literary Society#Founders. Cunard (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If a reliable source can be found to verify whether he served in the Colorado state legislature, the redirect can be undone. Cunard (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I would have no problem with a redirect/merge as suggested by Cunard. --MelanieN (talk) 01:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge unless a RS can confirm he served on Colorado State Legislature - there is nothing on the web (other than this article) that says he did. NBeale (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.