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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Josh Wells

[edit]
Josh Wells (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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Not notable: baseball player who has only played in minor leagues. Specs112 t c 12:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Muboshgu and Spanneraol, first, please provide an independent, reliable source for the subject having played for the Sydney Blue Sox per WP:GNG----unsupported assertions of notability do not cut it. Second, please also provide a basis for your assertion that the Australian Baseball League constitutes "a top-level national league"----I've never heard of Australian baseball, and I'm pretty sure that it is not played on remotely the same level as MLB, the Nippon League or even Taiwanese baseball. I'll go out on a limb and say the ABL is probably played at or below a skill-level comparable to American AAA minor league ball; the Wikipedia article specifically states that the ABL's counter-seasonal schedule permits players to split time in the American minors. If the ABL is a "top-level national league," then it appears to be such in the same sense as the European leagues for American football, or a hypothetical Mexican national hockey league being a top-level national league, too. If you have solid evidence to the contrary, I'm wiling to be educated and I'll change my delete !vote. Otherwise, it appears the subject is just another player who spent time in the American A and AA minor leagues and also played in an overseas "national" minor league. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well the sources for him playing with the Blue Sox are already in the article. The Baseball Reference link has his stats from the league and the Baseball Digest article is actually a feature article about him playing there. The ABL is definitely the top league in Australia and while the quality of play there is certainly not at the same level as MLB.. it is the top national league and thus qualifies under our existing guidelines. The players there tend to be Australian ballplayers rather than American exports slumming as the Football leagues you mention above. Spanneraol (talk) 21:57, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:BASE/N cites several specific examples of top skill-level baseball leagues, and then concludes with "or any other top-level national league (active or defunct)." I don't think your interpretation of the quoted language is the intended or correct one. I believe it was intended to apply to the independent predecessors of MLB and the like. Otherwise, every one-game player from a hypothetical Liberian national baseball league is entitled to a presumption of notability because he played in the top league in Liberia. I recently had this same argument with another editor who was arguing for the notability of someone who played on an Austrian American rules football team, because he was asserting it was the top "national" American football league in Austria. That's a virtually meaningless notability standard. If that's the interpretation for sports bio AfD discussions, then we really need to revisit the intended meaning and phrasing of "or any other top-level national league (active or defunct)" language in a Wikipedia-wide RfC. In this case, you've effectively promoted a Double-A minor leaguer to the one-game MLB presumption of notability. I don't believe that's a desirable policy outcome. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:20, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since i was involved with the initial discussions that led to that description I can say it was the intended one and is how we've handled these cases in the past. The difference between the Australian league and some hypothetical Liberan league is finding references that refer to the league and players. The Australian press does cover this league and It gets more coverage than some other leagues do. Spanneraol (talk) 22:33, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spanner, can you link me to the original SNG talk page discussion that supports this as the intended interpretation? If so, I will change my vote for this particular case based on the existing SNG standard. That having been said, if that is the intended result, I seriously think this language needs to be revisited in an RfC that draws project-wide participation (and certainly from outside the regular baseball and other sports WikiProjects editors). We are effectively creating new and lesser SNG standards of notability for athletes below the top skill level in their respective sports, divorced from the requirements of GNG that all articles are supposed to satisfy. That's not good, and I say that as a 3-year editor who works mostly on sports articles. I won't fight this argument at the AfD level over a single article, but I will open the discussion at the Wikipedia-wide policy level. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It already is standard in pretty much all sports that have professional leagues that the top league in a given country meets WP:NSPORTS. You just need to look at the various sports and see that almost all of them include language indicating that the players of a top league in a country meet the nsports standards. A wiki-wide RfC was held on the creation of NSPORTS so it has had project-wide participation. The reasoning behind it of course is not skill level but coverage level. A player who isn't good enough to be in the major leagues in the US might be one of the best players in Australia and thus be covered in the Australian papers as such. I am not as familiar with baseball in this regard as I am with ice hockey. But in ice hockey players who would gain little attention in North America are often regarded as super stars in Europe and get the coverage to match. -DJSasso (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Davewild (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(UTC)

  • Keep – As stated above, passes WP:BASE/N. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Muboshgu. EricEnfermero | Howdy! 15:10, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a question is the Australian Baseball League a fully professional league, and not just a semi-professional summer/winter league that is the case with many of the "top" professional baseball leagues in Europe. Just asking as in the football/soccer guidelines playing in the top league of a country doesn't cut it if it's not a fully professional league. If that's the case there should be a discussion in the sports notability guidelines regarding their players. I don't see much in GNG at all here even in Australian sources. Secret account 03:25, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I do wonder about that as well, especially as I seem to see minor leaguers in US leagues play in the ABL during the US offseason. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that's the case it clearly doesn't meet WP:BASE/N as a winter league/semi-professional league isn't "top level baseball" required in our guidelines, and without anything else that makes it meet our original notability guidelines. Delete Secret account 02:25, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • The guideline is for a "top-level national league." If the criterion was simply top-level as in equivalent to the US Major Leagues, no other league in any country (with the possible though unlikely exception of Japan) would qualify. Rlendog (talk) 15:28, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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