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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dogs on acid

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Dogs on acid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Contested PROD with no improvement or reason given by IP. Unsourced and non-notable website. Barely asserts notability. Ranked 44,363rd in traffic by Alexa internet. No non-trivial coverage. Wperdue (talk) 02:09, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | Talk 00:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not familiar with Alexa, but if it tracks the hits on an individual page, then asserting that the number of hits for the forum as a whole is what Alexa records on the main page only is a serious error.
As for redirecting to Fresh, perhaps it is more like, he ought to be mentioned in the article, being a founding member and all. Anarchangel (talk) 07:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I believe I exercised due diligence in looking for sources. I think you and I disagree on what constitutes a reliable source. The Urban Dictionary is now a reliable source? Also, since when is an internet forum not considered a website? And as for DOA standing for "Dogs on Acid", I always thought it stood for "dead on arrival" and, after looking at your source, it contains 204 different possible acronyms for DOA. Wperdue (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)wperdue[reply]
The comment you are responding to was directed to JJL, and his assertion that "I don't think the article even makes a claim of notability." We agree about what constitutes a reliable source; I believe that the Urban dictionary is less than completely reliable, as it is wikified.
To the parts of your replies about my comments that were concerning what you wrote: All forums are websites, but not all websites are forums. Specificity was my point.
Acronym Finder do the job right; they list everything, and rank it according to its verifiability and notability. 'Dogs on Acid' is not listed on the page: "Our 'Attic' has 148 -unverified- meanings for DOA" (my emphasis), but it does note that among the 56 verified acronyms, "This definition appears very rarely". So, WP:V is satisfied by this citation, but DoA is shown to be less WP:N. How much less would require looking at other examples on Acronym Finder to get an idea of the standard they use.
Ok, scratch parts of my comment. Acronym Finder do a job, but not the whole job. They rank according to a star system; the definition one might expect for "CIA" gets 6 stars, but also returns the phrase, "This definition appears very rarely". It seems every definition does. Dogs on Acid gets 4 stars. Anarchangel (talk) 02:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to make a new point, that 'uncontested PROD' is like saying that an Indian didn't show up in court to contest someone stealing his land. The Wikipedia:Proposed deletion process is incredibly biased towards power users and against WP's primary contributors, new users.
DoA, as one of the larger, possibly the largest UK Drum 'n' Bass forums, is also notable outside the UK; there was a Los Angeles site that mentioned them, but I was getting hit by some kind of spam attack when I went to the site, and I didn't have the presence of mind to copy-paste the URL and I can't be bothered to search again until this is resolved.
Previous points remain unaddressed. I have very serious doubts as to the validity of the number of hits as recorded by Alexa; Alexa always returns the exact same data whether the main page or subpages are entered into the search. This skews all data for multiple-page sites, as users of a forum may avoid the main page altogether when setting bookmarks. I know I do. Now it is possible that Alexa records all the traffic on the whole site, but it seems like something they would claim in big bold letters; I think it is more likely that there is no mention of it because it is a flaw in their system.
Most importantly, DoA has been since 2004, a record business as well as a forum, as verified by the listing on Discogs. It is verifiably notable as a record business. Anarchangel (talk) 03:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | Talk 16:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Agree that is non-notable. I can't find anything to indicate that they stand out from any other music forum, record label or online store. A search with google finds mostly mentions on other forums, blogs, and fan sites. I don't find anything from what I could call a reliable source. As as label, they appear to be insignificant. The appear to have several releases but nothing to distinguish themselves from the countless other small labels. Their primary business seems to be running a forum with an online shop. --Sophitessa (talk) 20:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This forum is notable, it just needs time to be properly edited. As you can see many notable artists post on there. Also it was the driving force to making the very notable band pendulum famous. It was also the website started by one of the biggest electronic producers in the uk at the time Bad Company. This website holds a lot of history, it just needs time to be put together. When does this debate close? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayflux (talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This forum is the center for anything and everything drum and bass, and to a lesser degree, dubstep. It should definitely have it's place on Wikipedia/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.27.27.76 (talk) 21:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep More reliable sources about notable artists in relation to the forum http://www.teletext.co.uk/planetsound/news/8f94d79ffc51d134a4940df006c71208/Pendulum+attack+critics.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.64.15 (talk) 23:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep First of all, I'd like to mention that I'm affiliated with Dogs On Acid and have been asked by the initial creator of this article to make a case for keeping the article up on Wikipedia and contribute towards this goal.

The article definitely needs more work content wise as there are a few false claims and errors, but I'm pretty sure that over the next couple of iterations we can work this out, including proper verification by trusted sources.

On the subject of notability, let me mention a few facts. We are indeed the largest online community, by forum statistics and activity, when it comes to Drum & Bass music. We've never claimed to be the largest dance music forum. The emphasis lays on the latter part of the claim. According to Alexa (which by the way I doubt is a definite trusted source), when it comes to overall website traffic and stats, we also take over the crown from Drum & Bass Arena, the self proclaimed largest D&B website, on a regular basis. Apart from the website, we run various record labels, events, etc. In short we've far surpassed being just a website. We're a household name, synonymous with the music, known by a large part, if not the most part, of the D&B community.

The website is founded and owned by some of the biggest artists in the D&B scene. We've been nominated for a BBC XtraBass Award, narrowly missing the award taking a second place. Also, the claim that our labels are insignificant is unfounded. For Drum & Bass music standards, Breakbeat Kaos is one of the biggest selling labels within the genre, with Pendulum even hitting the UK album charts. You have to remember that apart from moments of pop culture interest, D&B is an underground niche market.

The Grid, our music production section, is the birthplace of many new D&B talent. Noisia, Mistabishi and Data to name a few, were regular contributors before gaining any (mainstream) popularity. Next to this, most D&B artists and promoters are or were regular contributors to our website one time or another.

I hope I made my case. It's better to make my case first before putting in work for the article. Dog On Acid (talk) 04:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The Accolades section does indicate notability. Pinkgirl 18:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't, as it is unsourced. Kotiwalo (talk) 18:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added references, including one for the BBC award. Dog On Acid (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete Drum and Bass Arena forever. Portillo (talk) 04:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At first I thought your concerns with the article were genuine (see article history.) But now I see this is not the case. Ignore Portillo's vote. Dog On Acid (talk) 05:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Good faith edits. Portillo (talk) 08:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please use the article's Talk page to clarify your last edit (and be a bit more elaborate with regards to neutrality, exaggeration of non-notable facts and confusion.) Let's work this out. Dog On Acid (talk) 08:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Acceptable Article, meets wikipedia standards and proves notability. Decent amount of references and sources (that are NOT self sourced). I think we have established this cannot be merged with DJ Fresh as the two article discuss completely different matters. Pendulum (regular posters) are notable for their chart success, also this website harbours many notable figures. Anyone who wants to understand what the website is about, will find this well written detailed article a valuable and interesting resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayflux (talk • contribs) 01:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Dogs On Acid has played a pivotal role in the sculpting on the Drum and Bass scene. It has helped introduce new artists and DJ's, offered an open forum for criticism, and created an outlet for the public. DOA is a cornerstone of the Drum and Bass scene. It is not just a music forum; It has reshaped the music it was created by. - Eric Pollen

  • Delete - insufficient coverage to establish notability. The references provided are mentions, and for the most part are from unreliable sources. There is simply no significant coverage. -- Whpq (talk) 15:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Its very hard to gain a lot of coverage for a forum, where most of the things happening are within that forum and are not very often relayed elsewhere. I disagree by your comment, not all of our references are mentions, we have statistics from Apex, Big boards and Wolfram alpha. We have award listings on the BBC website and also nominations in magazine websites, not to mention being mentioned on the UK's Teletext website which is a reliable news source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.64.15 (talk) 00:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I agree, the references mentioned are reliable and good sources. Forums are quite hard to source because the context is all from the discussions within. The magazine article has also proved this website to be notable within the music genre just as much as any other music based website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayflux (talk • contribs) 00:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please, only one !vote per customer. -- Whpq (talk) 01:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

we are not in todays deletion log, does this mean that his debate is over? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.64.15 (talk) 12:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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