Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alien Project (band)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Redirect (probably merge too, given comments) to Steve Perry. --Haemo 22:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Alien Project (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
Non-notable band other than the fact that Steve Perry left it shortly before joining Journey—the band had been together for about six months or less. Any necessary information on the band can be included in the Steve Perry article per WP:MUSIC: it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such. As it is, the Alien Project article is based on information taken from two fansites, not from reliable sources. I started this AfD, changed my mind and simply redirected the page, but the author reverted my redirect so here we are. Precious Roy 00:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete There's no bark in this dog - the very definition of non-notable band. MarkBul 02:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Devil's advocate The full sentence from the guideline mentioned by the nominator is Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such. Personally, I would say this should be a redirect, but a case could be made for it per WP:BAND. faithless (speak) 03:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Yes, I am the author of this article and think the band is notable as per WP:MUSIC guidelines, as they produced the first recorded works featuring Steve Perry on vocals, later and best known as the lead singer of Journey. The Steve Perry article does not sufficiently cover the Alien Project, briefly mentioning the band in two sentences. Another member of the Alien Project band, drummer Craig Krampf, went on to become a hit songwriter with two songs that reached the "Top 40" on the Billboard Hot 100 charts and as a producer. Some (not all) of the information quoted in the article is hosted on a fansite, but includes record company biography material so I believe it is considered a reliable source. The other sources, including album liner notes, are also credible. Given the era it is difficult to locate other published references. Z00ropean 03:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect: clearly not notable apart from Perry; seems to be one of a number of small bands he was in; no references to establish notability apart from fansites. David Mestel(Talk) 16:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KeepNote: I have now located a published reference (book) to the Alien Project story and updated the article accordingly. I have also added a link to the 'official' record company biography referring to Perry's history in the band. Oddly enough, after reviewing WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:VERIFY, I cannot locate a specific guideline that says referencing a published article (i.e. originating from a magazine, newspaper, etc) that is hosted on a personal website is not considered a reliable source. Regardless, the article is credible based on its other references, even without the one reference to a 'fan site'. I will repeat the band is notable due to the accomplishments of Perry and Krampf, both of whom had successful careers subsequently, including their work together on Perry's first solo album Street Talk. Z00ropean 03:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]- Comment It's not a question of whether or not the band existed, or even if Steve Perry was a member? The question is: Is Alien Project notable aside from the fact that Steve Perry was a member. As for using a fan site for a reference (even when the document referenced purports to originate from a reliable source), I think this is the guideline you're looking for, and it states, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible. The other references you've added are still only trivial mentions (the interview with Krampf is about him, not about Alien Project, a band that took up less than 6 months of his musical career). Really, to establish the notability of this band, you'll need to show multiple, non-trivial published references, which, considering the incredibly short period of time the band existed, seems unlikely. Precious Roy 11:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The book I quoted is not trivial, it's a book about the history of drums & drummers including Kramph, and there's a whole page dedicated to Alien Project and his work afterwards. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that the band Alien Project was more than just "Steve Perry's old band", it was also a vehicle for Kramph who became a success in his own right. So from the top let's remember that the WP:MUSIC guidelines for notability state: "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." I have answered the original criticism that the article is only "based on information taken from two fansites", there are other credible references established. I have also established two of the 12 WP:MUSIC guidelines, one for the members, one for published works (although you continue to debate that). The music they produced has even been released on Steve Perry's remastered Street Talk CD, so it's available for listening today, it's not some strange work that never saw the light of day. It's clear we do not agree, but it's a shame you put this much energy into deleting content instead of creating it. I would welcome help to improve the article, to me that's the whole point of Wikipedia's collaborative style. Z00ropean 21:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick rebuttals (I'd hate for you to feel worse about me spending any more time on this): The book is not trivial; it's the content regarding Alien Project that's trivial. Alien Project is not how Craig Krampf became notable, either. The primary references for the article are fan sites. It's not that the band is "some strange work", it's that it is not notable. It was a footnote is Steve Perry's and Craig Krampf's careers and deserves a brief mention in their articles and that's about it. Precious Roy 22:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The book I quoted is not trivial, it's a book about the history of drums & drummers including Kramph, and there's a whole page dedicated to Alien Project and his work afterwards. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that the band Alien Project was more than just "Steve Perry's old band", it was also a vehicle for Kramph who became a success in his own right. So from the top let's remember that the WP:MUSIC guidelines for notability state: "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." I have answered the original criticism that the article is only "based on information taken from two fansites", there are other credible references established. I have also established two of the 12 WP:MUSIC guidelines, one for the members, one for published works (although you continue to debate that). The music they produced has even been released on Steve Perry's remastered Street Talk CD, so it's available for listening today, it's not some strange work that never saw the light of day. It's clear we do not agree, but it's a shame you put this much energy into deleting content instead of creating it. I would welcome help to improve the article, to me that's the whole point of Wikipedia's collaborative style. Z00ropean 21:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It's not a question of whether or not the band existed, or even if Steve Perry was a member? The question is: Is Alien Project notable aside from the fact that Steve Perry was a member. As for using a fan site for a reference (even when the document referenced purports to originate from a reliable source), I think this is the guideline you're looking for, and it states, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible. The other references you've added are still only trivial mentions (the interview with Krampf is about him, not about Alien Project, a band that took up less than 6 months of his musical career). Really, to establish the notability of this band, you'll need to show multiple, non-trivial published references, which, considering the incredibly short period of time the band existed, seems unlikely. Precious Roy 11:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 08:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TerriersFan 00:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge to Steve Perry (musician) per WP:BAND, which states "it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such". This band isn't notable enough for its own section, but can be mentioned on Steve's page. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 02:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Has place to be. M.V.E.i. 21:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Notability is not inherited. This band is probably not notable at all aside from the fact that Steve Perry was in it (the article even says Before he became the famous lead singer of Journey, vocalist Steve Perry sang for a number of small, unknown bands). The band needs to be notable in itself to be worthy of an own article. My question is: are they any reliable sources that cover the band as a band in its own right, and not as "the obscure garage band that Steve Perry was part of before he became famous"? I couldn't find any. Any relevant info may be merged into Steve Perry (musician), and then we can redirect this. Melsaran (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep under WP:MUSIC criterion #6. People often reach for WP:INHERITED in cases like this, but I think the situation is already better explained under WP:MUSIC. I quote: "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." So, under that rule, this article clearly shouldn't be deleted, but should be merged or kept. The key point under WP:INHERITED, as I see it, is whether, and I quote again, "if there is not enough independently verifiable information to support a stand-alone article, merge the content into the parent article and create a redirect." Here, as there does seem to be enough "independently verifiable information to support a stand-alone article" (it does not matter whether that material is about the band in its own right or not, pace Melsaran), then we should keep rather than merge. WP:INHERITED goes on: "Often, sub-articles are created for formatting and display purposes, however - this does not imply an "inherited notability" per se, but is often accepted in the context of ease of formatting and navigation, such as with books and albums." Again, here there are reasons "in the context of ease of formatting and navigation" to have this page separate from Perry's. Bondegezou 16:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Criterion #6 goes on to say "it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." That part, which you chose to overlook in your argument, has been mentioned at least 3 times in the course of this AfD. Also, there is not enough "independently verifiable" content: the majority of the information comes from a fan site—not a reliable source. And I'm not sure I understand how having an article for this band "ease[s] formatting and navigation"; that sentence even gives "books and albums" as examples, considerably different from music artists. Precious Roy 18:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your response suggests I haven't explained myself well! I was not overlooking the rest of criterion #6: the rest of what I posted was specifically tackling that issue, of whether it would be better to cover Alien Project under Steve Perry or in its own article. WP:BAND doesn't really give any guidance as to which cases are better handled with stand-alone articles and which are better handled through merges/redirects. Thus, in trying to answer that question, I turned to WP:INHERITED and the bit of WP:INHERITED that I feel often gets overlooked! There is indisputably some independently verifiable information given in the article now; and I dispute that the majority of the information is from a fan site. Ergo, I feel there is "enough independently verifiable information to support a stand-alone article". (If you are concerned about the quality of some of the sources used, then a clean-up tag to that effect seems more appropriate than deletion.) As for "eas[ing] formatting and navigation", to cover this material under Steve Perry would make a long article longer. Moreover, as Craig Krampf is also notable, it seems clumsy to me to repeat material about Alien Project under both Perry and Krampf. The quotation does give "books and albums" as examples, but those are examples, not an exhaustive list. Bondegezou 19:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The band's history can easily be summed up in a paragraph or two at the most. They were around for less than six months and never released anything. (Did they even play any shows? The article doesn't say.) They almost signed with a major label but even that is not notable in and of itself. The page should redirect to Steve Perry; a shorter mention can go in the Craig Krampf article, with a link to Steve Perry. That seems pretty simply organized to me. As for the length of the Steve Perry article, a quick read-through shows me that it could use some serious fat-trimming. Precious Roy 21:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your response suggests I haven't explained myself well! I was not overlooking the rest of criterion #6: the rest of what I posted was specifically tackling that issue, of whether it would be better to cover Alien Project under Steve Perry or in its own article. WP:BAND doesn't really give any guidance as to which cases are better handled with stand-alone articles and which are better handled through merges/redirects. Thus, in trying to answer that question, I turned to WP:INHERITED and the bit of WP:INHERITED that I feel often gets overlooked! There is indisputably some independently verifiable information given in the article now; and I dispute that the majority of the information is from a fan site. Ergo, I feel there is "enough independently verifiable information to support a stand-alone article". (If you are concerned about the quality of some of the sources used, then a clean-up tag to that effect seems more appropriate than deletion.) As for "eas[ing] formatting and navigation", to cover this material under Steve Perry would make a long article longer. Moreover, as Craig Krampf is also notable, it seems clumsy to me to repeat material about Alien Project under both Perry and Krampf. The quotation does give "books and albums" as examples, but those are examples, not an exhaustive list. Bondegezou 19:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Criterion #6 goes on to say "it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." That part, which you chose to overlook in your argument, has been mentioned at least 3 times in the course of this AfD. Also, there is not enough "independently verifiable" content: the majority of the information comes from a fan site—not a reliable source. And I'm not sure I understand how having an article for this band "ease[s] formatting and navigation"; that sentence even gives "books and albums" as examples, considerably different from music artists. Precious Roy 18:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.