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This is the place to ask any questions you have about the Simple English Wikipedia. Any general discussions or anything of community interest is also appropriate here.

You might also find an answer on Wikipedia:Useful, a listing of helpful pages.

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Sandbox cleaning

The operator of User:RileyBot has retired, and I'm not sure whether it is going to keep cleaning the sandboxes. It looks to have stopped some time in the last couple of days. Osiris (talk) 05:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We should ask the original guy to come back and keep doing it. He should have never been asked to stop so some new guy could do it that had no history here. -DJSasso (talk) 11:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think anybody asked him to stop for that reason, I think he just stopped; there are at least two other tasks which Chris G handled that are still bot-less since he left. I'll ask him, though. It would be good if we can get all three back. Osiris (talk) 04:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Posted a request at en:User talk:Chris G. Osiris (talk) 04:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm available to take up the task if there are any problems (I currently do the task on a few other wikis).  Hazard-SJ  ✈  21:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No he was actually asked I believe. I think by Riley. I remember reading the request and thinking it was a bad idea. -DJSasso (talk) 11:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was actually Osiris who left the note on Chris G's talk page, and it didn't ask him to stop the task.  Hazard-SJ  ✈  21:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't the note I am talking about but either way I'd prefer his bots back since they are proven reliable but if that's not an option then whoever as long as they are someone active here and not a once in a blue moon editor because it will likely just cause the same thing to happen. -DJSasso (talk) 12:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chris has responded, and it doesn't look like he wants to do it. However, RileyBot has started up again since then. No idea how long that will last. If you want to take over, Hazard, I think it'd be preferrable to leaving it the hands of a retired user. Osiris (talk) 04:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm going to submit the request now, since it seems the bot stopped again.  Hazard-SJ  ✈  03:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Please post a note to Riley as well, and if he doesn't respond I'd say we should probably block the bot in case it decides to start up a third time. Osiris (talk) 03:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Done  Hazard-SJ  ✈  03:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've just talked to Riley. The intermittent failures are coming from the bot's IP being blocked globally. He still has interest in maintaining his bots. I'm working with him to solve the issue right now.— Hello! 13:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
RileyBot now has global IP block exempt. It should run normally again.— Hello! 13:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking for Simple Wikipedia Oversight

I have been working on an ambitious project called WikiProject_Medicine. The overall goal of the project is to take the top 80 Wikipedia medical articles and translate them into 80 languages. This project has been ongoing for quite a while.

In addition to this work, I have been asked to take the abstracts of each of the 80 articles and provide a Simplified English version for Simple Wikipedia. We posted a very small handful of simplified articles, but were told by the community that they are not simple enough. At that point, we halted our efforts so that we could regroup.

We are ready to move forward now. However, I think it would be really helpful to have someone well-versed in the Simple Wikipedia community provide a bit of oversight to make sure that we are adding value. If someone would volunteer to speak with my editors before we begin, perhaps we will avoid making common mistakes. We have all read the pages on how to write for Simple Wikipedia. But based on our prior experience, we are a bit nervous to start without a conversation.

Is this the correct place to ask for that type of help? If not, is there someplace else I should be looking or posting? I am very new to Wikipedia so apologies in advance if I've done something wrong!

Thank you! Valswisher (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just a touch new to oversee, myself, but you've certainly come to the right place to ask. I'm sure you will find help here. StevenJ81 (talk) 03:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And here's a good example where visiting editors have brought over huge amounts of highly technical material and left it in a quite unsuitable state. Don't bring it over if you can't handle it yourself. Don't imagine we have the people or the time to do the work: we don't. See if you can simplify the lead sections; that would be something. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:45, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to help you and your team develop articles in Simple English, but it is not an easy task. However, lets talk and work out how it can be done.--Peterdownunder (talk) 07:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're part of the team as a Wikipedian. As some one trying to put English Wikipedia content on Simple Wikipedia at the moment, it is really hard. (Simple English technically has no word for skiing based on what I can tell.) Small projects always have a challenge with a shortage of manpower. If people want to make this happen, interested Wiki Med people are going to need to be the ones who do it: they cannot rely on Simple Wikipedia administrators to work it out and make it so. (Just like showing up on any Wikinews project and saying "We want more medical news. Let us make it so." Interested writers just do not exist unless Wiki Med activates them to participate in the context of the project guidelines.) --LauraHale (talk) 02:03, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that WPMED is wiling to do the work, but they need some help in understanding what to do. "Make it, you know, simpler" is not helpful. "See that compound-complex sentence? Try using only simple declarative statements with a subject-verb-object format" or "Paste your text into this tool, and it will highlight all the words that aren't in the Simple English vocabulary" would be helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This tool is excellent if you use Firefox, as it highlights all non simple words: Simple English dictionary --Peterdownunder (talk) 23:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Twinkle

The toad who wants help is back... and needs lots of help with the following Twinkle-related thing. If this problem is urgent, please place {{Template:Helpme}} to the top of the section. Curtaintoad's problems can take up to months.

Hello. I go to the Wikipedia:Twinkle/Preferences to fix my Twinkle script; however, I restore my preferences and reload/hold keys, but I don't see my new Twinkle script. Can you guys and gals please tell me how do I get my new Twinkle script? Thanks, and please send me a TB. Curtaintoad (talk) 10:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you tell me what did you do? Point by point and tell me what kind of change you are expecting?--Pratyya (Hello!) 10:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I go to the Wikipedia:Twinkle/Preferences to fix my Twinkle script, clear my preferences in my settings and hold a key per WP:BYPASS, but it doesn't seem to work. What do I do?--curtaintoad | chat me! 10:46, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey don't clear your preference. It is not working. I mean your twinkleoption.js. So go to your Special:Preference and enable twinkle there. -- Pratyya (Hello!) 10:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. It's working for myself!. You copy my twinkleoption.js and paste that to your twinkleoption.js. See whether it works or not? Then reply here.--Pratyya (Hello!) 10:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. But I have Twinkle enabled. What happened?
  2. Thanks Pratyya Ghosh, this should work.

curtaintoad | chat me! 11:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it has fixed yet. Any questions? curtaintoad | chat me! 11:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC).[reply]
And I'm not sure if it works with QD log also... curtaintoad | chat me! 11:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC) ?[reply]
Also what is my "browser cache"? Because I am not quite sure. curtaintoad | chat me! 05:57, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In fact please give me a link to it. curtaintoad | chat me! 06:34, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Press the Shift key and click the reload. or Ctrl+Shift+F5

On my page my twinkleoption.js is working and it's normal.--Pratyya (Hello!) 06:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Sorry curtaintoad | chat me! 06:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The nothing. You enable twinkle from your Special:Preference.--Pratyya (Hello!) 07:00, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A while back there was an issue where Twinkle wasn't working just from being enabled through the settings. I was advised to add the following line to the .js file for the skin I use (that's different from the twinkleoptions.js file):

mw.loader.load(['ext.gadget.Twinkle']);

After that, it worked. Try that and report back. You might have to bypass your cache. If you don't know how to do that, sometimes it works just to completely shut down your browser then get back in. What browser do you use? --Auntof6 (talk) 08:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is working! curtaintoad | chat me! 10:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I currently contribute using Windows 7, I have just shut down my computer and then I turned it back on again. So do it work then? It should work. curtaintoad | chat me! 10:30, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is it working for you now? --Auntof6 (talk) 12:32, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; however, only part of it. Do I have to wait a few days until it works? Because that happened very recently to my twinkle script. curtaintoad | chat me! 12:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You shouldn't have to wait. What isn't working? --Auntof6 (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, you don't need to leave me a talkback note. I watch this page, so I will see if you reply. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have waited for a few days, but it works now. curtaintoad | chat me! 07:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good, glad to hear it. It's such a useful tool. --Auntof6 (talk) 08:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation pages

I have been working on resolving links to disambiguation pages ("dab pages"). This work is made harder by the fact that many of the dab pages here are more like lists of dictionary definitions than they are like links to pages a reader might be looking for. Is that (the former) what we want with dab pages here? If so, that's fine. If not, I'd like to do more work on cleaning them up and/or removing the ones that can't be made to direct readers to other articles. Comments? --Auntof6 (talk) 08:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not all things on dab pages will be links to articles. The point of dab pages is to list out the different uses/meanings of the word. So for example if a character in a popular novel uses the same name as a couple real people you would still list that on the page even if they would never have an article because the character is recognizable and a likely search term but perhaps not notable on his own. Though usually the book is linked to that they are in, but not always. And some disambiguation pages will have a dictionary type definition at the top of the page. Or a comment about being a surname etc. There are a number of different situations where this is common. -DJSasso (talk) 13:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If that is the case, then the purpose of dab pages here is different from what I'm used to on enwiki. Am I understanding that correctly? I could work with that, but there might not be be as much point in trying to resolve links to dab pages because some of the things on them would never be links (much less articles). I'd still like to hear from others on this. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No that is how it works on en.wiki. But you would still clear links to the dab pages. But not all links to them are incorrect you are right. Trying to think of some examples on en.wiki off the top of my head but I am coming up blank. I see them fairly often when they are bio dab pages due to the character example I mentioned above. See them less often with other topics. Do you have an example of one here that you are talking about? -DJSasso (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm looking for one. --Auntof6 (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How about Interim? --Auntof6 (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:2013 main page redesign proposal

Hi I think the main page needs new design because it looks old and outdated I would like to open Wikipedia:2013 main page redesign proposal for the community to create and suggest new features and new design for the main page. Paladox2014 (talk) 13:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Our mainpage was fairly recently redesigned. This is a "new" version. But feel free to create a design proposal in your user space to show us. You never know. -DJSasso (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok please check [2] it is not finish but please check to give feedback and to know know if I need to make it simple and to remove bits and to add bits Paladox2014 (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I copied your proposal to your userspace (here) so you can see what needs to be worked on. Simplification is obviously needed as Simple English is what language is not English. Many parts would also need to be removed as they do not and likely will never exist here. Most of the proposal will need a major reworking before it is ready to be considered. --Creol(talk) 15:48, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As Creol mentions most of it will have to be Simplified because we are not English wikipedia we are Simple English wikipedia. And you will have to cut out a number of the sections as we don't use them here and as he says we likely won't ever use them here. (in the news, on this day, featured picture, todays article for improving etc.) -DJSasso (talk) 16:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok do are we allowed to use the Mediawiki: namespace because the header uses the codes in the Mediawiki common.css Paladox2014 (talk) 18:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
could I ask the community to also edit User:Paladox2014/Main page to help add there own suggestion and new information Paladox2014 (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Generally the Mediawiki namespace is only used for general wiki stuff and not for users use. I don't mean to be bitey but you have almost no edits here (or en.wiki for that matter). You might want to edit here a bit to get a general idea of how this wiki works and the purpose of our specific wiki before you try to redesign the main page. Such a change is likely to take atleast a few months time to get people to weigh in and have discussions and !votes and the like. Its a pretty hefty commitment to make if you want to see it through if you aren't actually familiar with the wikis needs. -DJSasso (talk) 00:40, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok Paladox2014 (talk) 06:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh not this discussion again! We usually end up with loads of proposals, all of them nice enough, but generally everyone just prefers it the way it is. Yours is nice, but as above you'll find it hard for it to actually be implemented... Good luck though. Kennedy (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok Paladox2014 (talk)
do you have any suggestion for the main page adding or removing things Paladox2014 (talk) 16:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Red links to portals and other community features that do not exist. Today's article for improvement. Featured picture. Other areas of Wikipedia. --LauraHale (talk) 02:09, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I have added Today's article for improvement and Featured picture and have created a new header with links to pages which would be under other areas of Wikipedia I just need to add Red links to portals and other community features Paladox2014 (talk) 21:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
should we do for today's article for I pro ment should we do it monthly weekly or daily Paladox2014 (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with the current page that you are trying to fix? (Or is this a novel form of hat collecting, by saying you re-designed the front page of a Wikipedia?) --LauraHale (talk) 22:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
nothing it just looks a little outdated Paladox2014 (talk) 22:53, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you adding things like Picture of the day? There has been no discussion to do this. DYK is not even once a day. It is once a week. And "I think it is outdated" does not seem to say what is wrong. What looks outdated? --LauraHale (talk) 22:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
 Just to remind you that while your main page redesign remains a test in your userspace, you may not create new templates for the sole purpose of using it in your main page test. I have moved those templates to your userspace already. If you intend to create any more templates for your main page redesign, please create it in your userspace. Chenzw  Talk  01:25, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ok 5.66.149.62 (talk) 09:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am moving my user space to my wiki located at [3] reason because I need to use mediawikicommon.css file for some codes so anyone is welcome to edit on there 90.211.217.98 (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template issue

The mountain range infobox is not displaying elevations properly, as can be seen on the Allegheny Mountains article. This only seems to occur if the elevation is provided in feet; in articles where the elevation is provided in meters the issue does not occur (see Kelly Hills). Can someone with a better understanding of the template/mediawiki syntax take a look to see what's going on? –Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû (blah?) 18:11, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should be okay now. Osiris (talk) 06:04, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article 100,000

Our project currently has 99,999 articles. Soon we'll reach the 100,000 mark. Are we going to celebrate this milestone? If yes, how? LlamaAl (talk) 03:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever we do or don't do, let's make the number more meaningful by not rushing to get there, and not trying to be the one who makes the 100,000th article. A while back we had people trying to hurry up and get there, and we ended up with a lot of mass-produced articles of dubious quality. --Auntof6 (talk) 04:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is true. Synergy 15:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Should we have a logo for 100,000 article (like eswiki does for 1,000,000)? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we do PiRSquared17. I check the stats every 24 hours. Plus we get about 25 to 75 more articles every 24 hours. I think we should cross the milestone between 3 to 8 days. That is May 30 to June 4. English Wikpedia has the article name guess game of the milestone article. Whoever guesses the closest name the the milestone article is the winner. Should we do this to? 24.218.110.195 (talk) 21:34 26 May 2013 (UTC) 5:34pm 05/26/2013 EDT.
I would support that. LlamaAl (talk) 00:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would say no on putting it in the logo. Their logo is very gaudy and jarring. -DJSasso (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is that the only disadvantages of milestone logos Djsasso? Take a look at most milestone logos here (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_commemorative_logos). Tell me what other disadvantages you see over there. So for milestone logo supporters you can start from scratch or make one based on others at the link above. 24.218.110.195 (talk) 20:01 27 May 2013 (UTC) 4:01pm 05/27/2013 EDT.
Well personally I don't see the point. As we are ever growing the logo is essentially out of date immediately. But assuming we keep it on just as a celebration at what point do you take it down? When you hit the next milestone? If so then again I think it takes a nice logo and makes it look unprofessional for no reason other than bragging. -DJSasso (talk) 20:41, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You take down the milestone logo after 2 days (48 hours) to 5 days (120 hours) Djsasso. When other Wikipedias hit their milestone logos they take it down after that amount of time. I see the average is about 85 hours. The times i mention is the time after crossing the milestone. 24.218.110.195 (talk) 00:09 29 May 2013 (UTC) 8:09pm 05/28/2013 EDT.

Supporting Booth

Well we are so close to the milestone. We need to get supporters. Posting a comment? Do that above this section. Start a new row and write down your name. Plus put a yes in the column you wish to support. (Feel free to add your suggestions to the table.) 24.218.110.195 (talk) 21:44 27 May 2013 (UTC) 5:44pm 05/27/2013 EDT.

Don't forget the time and update total count when supporting. This supporting closes once we reach 99,925 articles for the logo and 99,950 for the game. Game closes once we reach 99,990 articles. 24.218.110.195 (talk) 23:58 28 May 2013 (UTC) 7:58pm 05/28/2013 EDT.
We had already crossed the milestone of 100,000 articles. All supporting has now closed, as all of the table is marked red. 24.218.110.195 (talk) 20:41 29 May 2013 (UTC) 4:41pm 05/29/2013 EDT.
Your user name and time voted Logo article name guess game from en.wiki Ignore the games and get back to creating content
24.218.110.195 (talk) 21:44 27 May 2013 (UTC) 5:44pm 05/27/2013 EDT. Yes Yes
Creol (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply] Yes
Auntof6 (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply] Yes
StevenJ81 (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC): I would put a banner notice like the one on Yiddish Wikipedia for a brief time. That's all.[reply] Yes
Djsasso (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC): I have no problem with a site banner for a short time (say a month) but nothing more than that.[reply] Yes
Total count 1 1 4

common.js

Hi. I just added a small common.js file to my namespace to give me ready access to my pages at Meta, Commons and Wikidata through the Toolbox. However, it seems to be working inconsistently. When I actually navigate to that page, I see my changes in the Toolbox. On the edit page where I am as I type this, I also see the changes. However, in normal read mode on normal pages I don't. I've flushed the cache. I've bypassed the cache. I've purged the page cache. What am I doing wrong? Or is that functionality disabled here? StevenJ81 (talk) 19:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just tested it for myself and it's working okay. I have no idea, sorry. Osiris (talk) 04:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, mine seems to work fine in all Talk namespaces and in Special namespace, and not elsewhere. StevenJ81 (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ahhh technology. You can plan it, organise it, code it, test it as much as you like but sometimes it just does whatever it wants to. Kennedy (talk) 11:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LOL!
Seriously, though, do you have any thoughts on this? I'm now nearly certain that the problem is limited to simplewiki in some way, as I have installed the same common.js file at enwiki, frwiki, Wikidata and Meta, and it works just fine in all of those places. Could it be an interfering gadget somehow? I'm not a programmer–someone else showed me how to do this–so I have no idea how to figure it out. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What skin are you using? What browser? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm using Vector in Firefox. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Try User:PiRSquared17/common.js. PiRSquared17 (talk) 01:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That worked! Thanks. Now, I'm not a programmer, but can you give me a sense of what you did differently?
Also, while I'm asking: Is it possible to create a new portlet there and have these links live there, instead? (I'm only asking if the answer is really obvious, not to ask you to do more than you've already done.) StevenJ81 (talk) 02:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why it works while the other didn't, but I can tell you what I did differently. I used jQuery $(document).ready instead of addOnloadHook, I put all the addPortletLinks in one load function instead of a separate onload for each, and I used new functionalities (addPortletLink is deprecated, mw.util.addPortletLink does almost the same thing, same with addOnLoadHook vs $(document).ready), and I changed "http://" to the protocol-relative "//" so it works on https://simple.wikipedia.org as well. Not sure if this list is comprehensible.
Yes, it is possible to add a portlet in the sidebar (if I understood you correctly). Try User:PiRSquared17/common.js (it's a hack, might not work in all skins). PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Works perfectly, so far here, enwiki and Wikidata. Thanks for all your help! You are truly a well-rounded contributor! StevenJ81 (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Latest Tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.
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  • The next version of MediaWiki (version 1.22/wmf5) will be added to Wikimedia sites starting on May 27. [14]
  • An updated version of Notifications, with new features and fewer bugs, will be added to the English Wikipedia on May 23. [15]
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ABCP arch

This looks like advertising to me. While the talk page says its for a school project, I think it needs to be moved to userspace. The wiki isn't for school projects. Its for reputable and notable topics. On the other hand, if the awards check out and are verified, it should be created over at EN also. I'm bring the conversation here to not offend any ongoing work to the article by the students. Synergy 01:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It does have a promotional tone. Know, though, that we do host organized class projects here. That's why we have the class project template. You could put a note on the article talk page to let the student know the tone is not appropriate. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nice to see you editing again, Synergy (although you left as I was joining). Welcome back! PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of Mayflower passengers?

Hello, I was wondering in what way people become notable by travelling on a ship, the Mayflower. Articles about passengers are being created, yet for people such as Humility Cooper, almost nothing is known (except that she seemed to have travelled on the Mayflower as a child, and later in life, returned to the Old World). Yes, there are records mentioning her name. I do however think that "notability" in our sense is probably different. Given the few things that are known about her, the interest in her is probably limited to academic sources (for example those that look at the conditions of women at that time). In other words: in my opinion, having a separate article about her is probably wrong. A similar case can probably be made about other passengers of the Mayflower. In short, I think that we should not have separate articles for most passengers. So far I have not nominated any articles for deletion as I think that this is more a discussion about what action make a person notable. Note that the Mayflower did not have any accident, the ship simply transported people to the New World (Plymouth Colony, iirc), and back. Thomas Andrews (enwp) was a shipbuilder that died when the RMS Titanic collided with the iceberg, he is generally described as a hero, helping others leave the ship. Is he notable? What about Madeleine Astor (enwp), who survived the accident, and died in 1940? Or Milvina Dean (enwp), who died in 2009, and who was the youngest person aboard the Titanic? - In short, what makes a person notable? --Eptalon (talk) 13:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You ask good questions. To me, Humility Cooper, for example, is probably pretty borderline.
That said, do understand that in US history, Mayflower has a unique, almost iconic status as ships go. It was the first ship to bring European settlers to the colonies that became the New England states. Those colonists were the first who came over as refugees from religious persecution, which in the US was a historically and culturally important aspect of the entire European colonization process. The story of the Plymouth Colony's survival through their first winter, culminating in the "first Thanksgiving" is an iconic story that substantially all US children learn in school. (Whether they learn it with historical accuracy ... is another matter!)
So at some level US citizens see almost everything pertaining to the history of that voyage of Mayflower as noteworthy at a certain level. The noteworthiness comes from a combination of the Mayflower voyage itself and the subsequent founding and building of Plymouth Colony, but as a perhaps-sloppy shortcut we tend to think of it mainly in terms of Mayflower.
In comparison, when you look at Titanic, a Titanic survivor (I think) would need at least something beyond pure presence on the ship to qualify. Astor (above) was certainly noteworthy in her own right, even if Titanic added to her fame. Andrews (above) was Titanic's naval architect, not just a passenger and hero. So he was inherently noteworthy, too. (It's at least arguable that even if Titanic had never existed, he would still have been noteworthy.)
With respect to Dean, it's more borderline. But the fact that she was the youngest passenger, and the last survivor, gives her a certain cachet, too. I'm not sure that she'd have been considered noteworthy if we were doing this 100 years from now, but I'm not sure we're wrong for including her now.
So I come to the conclusion that to be noteworthy, a passenger needs something besides mere presence on the ship. With Mayflower the critical difference is that all the passengers have something else: they have Plymouth Colony.
StevenJ81 (talk) 14:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... In terms of Humility Cooper I'd tend to say that she isn't notable. The ship is, and those on the ship collectively would be notable - for example the fact they collectively created the Mayflower Compact. Individually, I'd say no. Especially when almost nothing is known about her. I'd suggest merging all the passenger articles (of which there are some, but also many redlinks) into Mayflower passengers and possibly a list with the little info known about them? If individuals have notability for some other reason, such as John Carver who was the first Governor of Plymouth Colony they can have their own article... Basically; if they are notable as a group then they should have a group article, notable on their own, own article in this instance... Kennedy (talk) 14:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to thank Eptalon for notifying me of this discussion and allowing me to state my opinion here. I have to respectfully disagree with the editor who does not think her notable. You cannot "lump" these people together. They came from different places, different countries and for many different reasons.
Humility Cooper, is, in my opinion, not only notable, but especially notable to Simple Wikipedia whose articles are mainly directed to readers who are young in age. She travelled as a one year old child and was the youngest of the passengers, except for one other who was born on the ship. She was orphaned in Europe and travelled with persons who were probably her aunt and uncle, The Tilley family. Unfortunately, she also was soon to lose them to the cold and sickness of the first winter that took so many who had been passengers on the Mayflower and was then placed with yet another family. Humility witnessed the first encounter with the Native American population and the First Thanksgiving and did not returned to Europe until late in her teens, probably at nineteen years of age.
It is true that there is little information of Humility at this time, but more records are, even today, being gathered and discovered by professional researchers in Europe and the United States.
I think the young readers would not only find her notable but also would benefit greatly to know of her story. It is a story of courage that would inspire many young readers. I would also add that I believe that all of the passengers were notable just for being a passenger on the historic and momentous voyage of the Mayflower, its extremely dangerous voyage which few ordinary people especially children had experienced before 1620 and for their part in the discovery and the settlement of Plymouth Colony. Humility grew and prospered even while more than half of the passengers died.
I would hope that we would treasure this young child's story and that of all Mayflower passengers and to know that more information is actively being gathered even now on Humility and all of the other Mayflower passengers. While to adults, Humility's story may seem short of facts, to child readers, I think there is much there, spoken and unspoken.MySweetMelissa (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We have to distinguish between who is an interesting person to know about, and what makes a worthwhile encyclopedia article. The way we do that on Wikipedia is through our notability guidelines. I would make the following points:
  • The reason Humility was on the Mayflower was that her guardians made the trip. They were the people who made the decision to go, not Humility. One of the notability guidelines specifically says that a person is not considered notable just because they have a relationship with someone who is notable.
  • Simple Wikipedia's articles are not mainly for young readers. They are for several classes of readers: children, yes, but also people whose first language is not English, and people with poor English skills. We do not cater to any one group over the others.
  • A person is not notable for Wikipedia purposes because of what might be discovered about them in the future.
  • Articles exist on Wikipedia based on the notability of their subject, not based on whether someone might benefit from having them there. A person is not notable because of what they experienced in their life. The passengers as a group may be notable for Wikipedia purposes, certainly at least notable enough to be listed in the main article about the ship. Individuals might or might not, depending on their individual stories.
  • Wikipedia articles are, first and foremost, encyclopedia articles. They are not popular biographies or inspirational tales. Wikipedia articles deal with verifiable facts, not how much "unspoken" information there might be. In Humility's case, it is not a lack of facts, but a lack of notability according to our guidelines.
I am not saying that it is not worth knowing about Humility, or any other individual Mayflower passengers. I am saying that here we have specific criteria to determine who or what is notable enough for a separate article. Humility may not meet those criteria. --Auntof6 (talk) 06:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should revisit the basic point of notability - "A person can be notable if he or she has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources". I think all the Mayflower passengers have met that requirement. As it is an iconic historical event it is important that we give it full coverage. Also, as it is used in schools, then Wikipedia should be an accurate and informative source for students, and even more so for Simple English Wikipedia. In the specific case of Humility, until I read the article I knew nothing about her. But the article was simply written and well researched. --Peterdownunder (talk) 06:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The simplest answer – on which decisions should be based – is at the top of the guideline: A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject (emphasis mine). This does not include trivial mentions in historical records. If the passenger has been written about extensively in multiple reliable sources, then they are notable enough to have an article. That's the guideline. It's not about whether they made an impact or did something else with their life. I don't know how much Humility Cooper features in the sources that have been provided. Osiris (talk) 06:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have a list of Mayflower passengers. All we know about her as facts could be put in a short paragraph there, and linked by redirect. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that Mayflower passengers meet WP:Notability standards because they are Mayflower passengers and all that infers to Americans, both spoken and unspoken. We see articles about persons that have done nothing notable except hold a title. While that might not be notable in some countries, it is in others and they are respected and considered notable for that reason. The WP:Notability requirement is somewhat subjective as to country but should, I believe, be respected by all countries.
While I admit there is very little known about Humility Cooper at this time, more information is being found about these early Americans all of the time. She did come over on the Mayflower and that makes her as notable as any other Mayflower passenger, in my opinion and the opinions of many others who have sustained her and other Mayflower passenger articles for years now on En-Wikipedia.
Yes, I am aware that Simple Wikipedia had slightly different goals, those to children, language challenged persons, persons to whom English is not their first language, and to others and I applaud that goal. I think Mayflower articles are appropriate for all of the persons to whom Simple Wikipedia is directed.
I have seen many extremely complicated articles here which are near duplicates of those on EnWikipedia, unattributed and language nearly identical and have wondered to whom these articles are directed? Yet, because they pass the notability standards as interpreted by the administrators, I raise no objection.
I would think that since there is no space issue, and the Mayflower story being of such significant to both young readers and immigrants there would be no question that Humility Cooper could stay as a stand alone article and I respectfully request that she remain as such. Thanks. MySweetMelissa (talk) 12:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am fully on Melissa's side. And at this point I don't think one can say there is a consensus to delete this and similar articles. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that no one has even nominated any of these articles for deletion. We're just having a conversation. That being said, we need to keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia. We do not decide on keeping articles based on whether they are appropriate for our perceived audience. We have plenty of articles that are not appropriate for children. The fact that more information might be learned about someone is also not a consideration. In my opinion, the Mayflower passengers are not equally notable. The ones who had leadership roles are more notable. The ones who accomplished more later in life are more notable. Yes, our notability guidelines talk about being mentioned in publications. But if the mention is always in connection with someone else, such as a child's guardian, you have to ask how much of the notability really belongs to the child.
As for the articles you see here that you think are questionable, question them! The administrators do not decide what meets notability guidelines, the whole community does. If you challenge something and consensus does not agree with you, you lose nothing. On the contrary, you learn something something. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
 I would strongly urge people to create one article, where all the passengers are listed; in my opinion, a separate article is necessary onlly if at least one of the following criteria is met:

  • The passenger had a political role in the future colony, or was important for its political success (this includes the people negotiating with the natives, eg.)
  • Leaving out ships registers, and the registers of churches (marriage/death/baptisms), there are other contemporary sources that illustrate the notability of the passenger.

So in other words: People travelling on the Mayflower, are not notable by default. --Eptalon (talk) 22:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the amount of historical research done by scholars and historians makes each one notable. If you go to WorldCat, there are 1,239 books about the Mayflower. If you use Trove, there are an equally large number of sources. I think the sources are out there and notability is not derived from original documents proving they existed. --LauraHale (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Those are books about the ship/the voyage, and most of them are secondary sources (of the 20th century). What I tried to say is: Take Humility Cooper, and leave out the "boarding documents" and "church records". There will probably be few documents mentioning her, which were published until about 50 years after her death. She was baptized in London, in 1638 or 1639. Someone wrote in 1651 that she had died in England. It very much looks like this is all there is. Based on this record we decide that she deserves her own article here? -It looks like there were agreements signed in 1626/1627. People listed on those agreements are likely candidates for their own article. As a counterexample, en:William Bradford (Plymouth Colony governor) probably deserves an article of his own, as he served five terms as the governor of the colony. --Eptalon (talk) 09:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
These are certainly well accepted sources, and they are not old or outdated. Only one is in the last quarter of the 20th century:
  • Eugene Aubrey Stratton, Plymouth Colony: Its History and People, 1620-1691, (Salt Lake City: Ancestry Publishing, 1986)
  • Caleb H. Johnson, The Mayflower and Her passengers (Indiana: Xlibris, 2006)
  • Charles Edward Banks, The English ancestry and homes of the Pilgrim Fathers who came to Plymouth on the Mayflower in 1620, the Fortune in 1621, and the Anne and the Little James in 1623, (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2006)
  • Nick Bunker, Making Haste from Babylon: The Mayflower Pilgrims and their New World a History (New York: Knopf 2010)
  • Nathaniel Philbrick, Mayflower: A story of Courage, Community and War (New York: Viking, 2006).
This is not to exclude the fact that every childhood schoolbook mentions the Mayflower passengers in depth. To children in the United States, the Mayflower and the passengers are a big deal. They are addressed in every history book in elementary schools and high schools. An encyclopedia like Single English WP has a duty to provide additional information not covered in the basic history books. I cannot imagine anyone not thinking any of the passengers as being notable. I also have personal knowledge that many of the immigrants that come to the US, both children and adults are extremely interested in the Mayflower and all of the early Americans and are anxious to read more about them. Are we running out of space here?
There are many more quality books on the subject, but these I found in five minutes of research. (Added after) There is already an article on William Bradford and more will be added to it soon. MySweetMelissa (talk) 17:07, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Those are all secondary sources. Which is exactly what you're supposed to be using when deciding notability. Why is anybody suggesting that primary sources or arbitrary criteria be used to determine whether a topic is notable? We already have a criteria. It's written at the top of WP:N. Surely, the only thing that's relevant here is whether the coverage in the sources listed on the article is enough to show notability. Not what the person did with their life. Osiris (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also see several secondary sources (not none or just one) and I agree with those above who have pointed out that this does meet the notability criteria. Also, is there a time limit for an article to be developed here? Because if not why the rush to delete an article not yet three weeks old? I fully understand why some might find this article uninteresting but in fact the readers here are children and those learning English. So the articles by their very nature seem to fulfill two objectives; to be of interest to the readership and to be good practice for improving their language skills. I've taught children but have also taught those new to the English language and from that viewpoint this is a decent article. It serves the stated goals of Simple English Wikipedia and is an article that may still improve as other editors contribute. We develop our rules through consensus and I don't agree to applying them in the most rigid sense. All things considered I see no good reason the article should not stay. Rus793 (talk) 18:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the policy on notability (significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject), we have 3 things to determine, significant coverage, reliable secondary sources, independent of the subject. I doubt that anyone can honestly question the last two (hundreds of books writen by hundreds of authors and historians centuries after the subjects deaths). Only significant coverage is questionable. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail. This is where it gets tricky - in detail. In much of the sources, the coverage of the "not main" individuals is not extensive. Not a lot is realy known about them. But for the most part, what is known about them is covered. This is not a case of them being mentioned in passing. All that is known, every detail, is often included. The lack of information still available to us should not be used to say something is not notable. This lack of information may certainly affect how we deal with the subject in other ways, but it should not affect if it is notable. Given the sheer number of secondary sources which provide most every known detail about these people, I feel notability is proven.
Auntof6 stated above "The reason Humility was on the Mayflower was that her guardians made the trip. They were the people who made the decision to go, not Humility. One of the notability guidelines specifically says that a person is not considered notable just because they have a relationship with someone who is notable." Aside from the fact that the notability here is not based on the events but on the coverage of them, it is not a question of notability being inherited. No, she did not chose to go, but Jon Benet Ramsey did not chose to be killed. Why she was a passenger does not matter, that she was one would be all that matters. Her choice (or lack of) in the situation is immaterial.
That all being said, I do agree, in part, with Eptalon. While there is no doubt to me that Humility is notable, I do not feel there is ample information of warrant her own article at this time. A page listing all of the passengers with the known information about them with links to full articles on those where enough information is known to warrant full articles would probably be a better way to handle this. A page similar to the various "Characters of <blah>" pages would be best. People like Humility, while notable are merely bit players in the history of the events - they are minor characters of history. Character list pages handle the major and minor characters in a fashion where the information of most characters is available - pertinent info for all with just a summary for the major characters with a link to the rest of the information we have (the main article).
tl;dr: Yep, they are notable, but not enough info available of many of them for separate articles. Merge into a "character list" style page. --Creol(talk) 13:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Simple English Wikipedia Notability guideline, under General Notability Guideline states: "Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive". As for degrees of notability, they can't all be Charlemagne or other famous historical figures and I also don't see degrees of notability mentioned in the guideline. In the List of Mayflower passengers a link to her page is desirable but that list has hardly a sentence on those without articles of their own. Also, the point wasn't addressed why are we even discussing this on an article not three weeks old when this was brought up. What happened to letting the article develop and allow other editors to edit and add information? We don't know these are the only sources available on her so why the rush to judgement? Common sense should tell us this is a conversation for some time in the future after the article and others like it have been allowed time to develop. It's a good article and I definitely think it should stay. Rus793 (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria for being listed in year articles under births, deaths, etc.

I'm seeing the following comment in the births and deaths sections of year articles:

Please DO NOT add anybody with less than nine non-English language Wikipedia articles. Any subject that is listed who has less than nine non-English language Wikipedia articles will be deleted. Thanks.

First, this doesn't even make sense, but are there any requirements along those lines at all? I don't think there should be, and I'd like to remove those comments. What say ye? --Auntof6 (talk) 05:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly has never been discussed during the last five years. --Peterdownunder (talk) 06:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favor of removing those comments. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am in favor of removing those comments. PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It should be "fewer than", right? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, although I wouldn't bother with a mass change to fix just that. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another question

When I tried to create an account, I saw this message: "Incorrect or missing confirmation code." What is a confirmation code?76.200.128.93 (talk) 22:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea what it is in this context. --Auntof6 (talk) 00:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a CAPTCHA... but I wasn't even aware we used them? Kennedy (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Need template experts help

I am trying to transfer this template to Template:History of Video Games. However, when I do the template is bundled up. Anyone know how to fix this? Thanks, jonatalk to me 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, you should know that it was renamed Template:History of video games per WP:MOS.
Beside that, what do you mean by "bundled up"? Do you mean that it starts closed, with only the title bar showing? That's generally desired behavior for this type of template, so that the template does not always take up a lot of space. And that's especially true here at simple, when so many of the links start as red links. If there were a single article History of video games, it might be appropriate to put this template in as {{History of video games|state=expanded}}, so it would automatically appear opened. Usually, though, it is best to let it start closed and open it up if/when you want. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
um.. actually, I fixed it. I was a bit busy and forgot to toss a  Done up here before I moved on to my next tasks. It was bundled up pretty bad as are a lot of navigation templates brought over from en:wp that use the list format. Its a width issue, not a collapse issue. Something in our css doesn't translate them very well so a slight conversion was needed. --Creol(talk) 15:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Never mind. (;-) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Those listclass values on the navboxes should work okay from now on. We were using old code on {{navbox subgroups}}, but I updated it. Any future imports with bulleted lists should work fine. Osiris (talk) 17:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey thank you guys! Best, jonatalk to me 19:03, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A question from a newcomer

Hi! I'm Leopardfoot, a new user. Could someone tell me how to make my talk page?--Leopardfoot (talk) 22:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I left you a welcome page with some reading. I think this also says how to write articles/talk pages. Don't be afraid to ask, if you have problems... Welcome, and happy editing here.--Eptalon (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New WikiProject - Australia

I have created WikiProject Australia and a userbox. Dbromage (talk) 10:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

policy/guideline about using categories in userspace

Can someone point me to the policy or guideline about not having categories in userspace? A user is threatening to have me blocked if I keep disabling the categories on his user page, and I'd like to point him to the guideline/policy. Thanks. --Auntof6 (talk) 13:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what the categories are. If they are categories meant for articles then they shouldn't be on a userpage. If they are categories meant for users then they can be on a userpage. I can't think of the appropriate guideline off the top of my head however. -DJSasso (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Probably one of the more relevant: Wikipedia:User pages#What can I have on my user page? - "Wikipedian categories should not overlap with article categories." Chenzw  Talk  13:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to both of you. Yes, I meant categories meant for articles. The guideline you link, Chenzw, doesn't explicitly say you can't have article categories on a user page: you have to read between the lines to get that. However, in the next section, it gives me exactly what I was looking for: "Do not put your userpage or subpages, including work-in-progress articles, into categories used by Wikipedia articles." Thanks for helping me find that! --Auntof6 (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tech news: 2013-22

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.

Recent software changes
(Not all changes will affect you.)
Future software changes
  • MediaWiki will stop supporting XHTML 1.0 and HTML versions lower than version 5. HTML5 will now be the default language for pages created by the software. [24] [25]
  • The software will check if all uploaded files are secure and match their type. [26]
  • The Wikimedia Commons Android app will come out of the beta phase on its next release. [27]
  • Account creation by manual log-in will now be recorded in the account creation log (bug 42434). [28]
  • Links to file description pages will again be accessible directly from within videos (bug 43747). [29]
  • The software behind recent changes patrolling was re-written; the change fixes issues related to patrolling new pages, among other things. [30]
  • During a meeting, developers agreed on rules about making big changes to the software. [31]
  • There is now a category to list pages with invalid music code. [32]

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Unsubscribe.

Some pages have a "Related pages" section, others have "Other pages". I noticed it because I'm trying to parse all articles and find their related pages, and this fact raised some issues... -- Bluekuma (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Our standard used to be to use "Other pages", but it was changed to "Related pages". That is for other pages on this Wiki. "Other websites" is used the way English Wikipedia uses "External links". What do you mean when you say you're trying to "find their related pages"? --Auntof6 (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you'll see other headings like "See also", "See", and probably others, because 1) not everyone knows the standard and 2) it's left over from bring articles here from English Wikipedia. --Auntof6 (talk) 11:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm using the API to parse a page and find the interwiki links under the section "Related pages". Doing this for all pages I built a network, that I'm currently studying. It's for a graph-theory project at university. I think I'll have to switch to some other wiki though, since there's no consistency in how the section is named. I'm looking for the section called "See also" in English wikipedia. -- Bluekuma (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bored

Hey guys, I'm bored now... I don't really have much to do. Can you please tell what things and tools I can use to help improve Wikipedia like addings, redirects, categories, and do some regular cleanup. But do you have any jobs for me and can I please do them? Thanks, curtaintoad | chat me! 12:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well the best way you can help is by writing articles. We have a small wiki so we don't have as much of that kind of gnome work as en.wiki has. I mean there always is some to do but its not a backlog type situation. -DJSasso (talk) 12:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedia backlog has about 10K pages that need attention.. and its a variety of different things (refs, simplifying, wikifying, copy editing, birth dates, etc.. ) so it's easy to find something to keep you interested. (I tend to do infobox repairs and images daily so those areas are usually pretty low) --Creol(talk) 13:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestion, that is basically what I meant by working on articles. Those sorts of fixes are always really appreciated. -DJSasso (talk) 13:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or if you'd rather be a writer (rather, summarizer / rewriter) there's Wikipedia:Most wanted articles. Jim.henderson (talk) 13:53, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like to add categories related to the year things started? For example, for a company (or sports club, or certain other things) that started in 1968, you would add Category:1968 establishments. There are lots of kinds of things you could check to see if they need this -- companies of all kinds, schools, sports clubs, musical groups and bands, organizations, etc. Certain kinds of things do NOT go in these categories, like television series, so make sure you're looking at things that do go in them. For an example of an article that has an establishment year category, you can look at Dallas Stars.

If the category you need to add doesn't exist yet, add it to the article anyway. Then you could either create the category or just leave it red and I or someone else will find it later. If you do create it, please be sure to set it up the standard way, not by manually putting it into other categories like we do most of the time. Also, these establishment year categories can be created with only one or two entries, which is different from most of our categories. How does that sound? --Auntof6 (talk) 10:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great! curtaintoad | chat me! 11:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations

Everyone, congratulations. We reached a huge milestone: 100,000 articles, the 100,000th of which seems to be Codex Huamantla. Let's continue making the encyclopedia better and bigger! -Mh7kJ (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Outstanding!
Per the supporting booth above, the most that there is consensus for is a site banner. Someone up there said "for a month", but given that it is May 29 today, let's round that off to "end of June". I don't know how to do that; can someone take it on? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff, but please can we have no banner? Subtlety is a virtue... Kennedy (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with no banner...I just meant the most I would be ok with would be one. But I am especially against changing the logo. -DJSasso (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Myself, I think a banner for a month would be fun. Subtlety often is a virtue, but sometimes it's also worth publicizing a worthwhile cause. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't forget to mention this on Meta (Wikimedia News I think?) and wikimedia-l. :) --Rschen7754 20:31, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Congrats! (it's on Wikimedia News) PiRSquared17 (talk) 00:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Does anyone know exactly what's included in that count? For example, does it include talk pages? User pages? Templates? Redirects? --Auntof6 (talk) 01:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, none of those. Just all mainspace pages that are not redirects. Osiris (talk) 02:23, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tab to en.wiki version of page

A few years ago someone asked for some code to make a link on their menubar to the en.wiki version of a page. At the time someone gave some out which I have used for the last couple years but I never felt it worked well because I had to go to a drop down menu to access it so felt interwikis worked better.

However I have now modified some code from Kumioko on en.wiki that I think works better by putting a tab right on the top of your page. If you want to try it out put the following code in your Vector.js (may work on other skins as well haven't tried).

importScript('User:Djsasso/enWPTab.js');

-DJSasso (talk) 17:39, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. Thanks. I actually cut-and-pasted it into my vector.js, because I wanted it to read "enWiki" instead of "English". But it works great. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can change the label to whatever people like. The benefit of doing it the way I mention is that if I do some code updates (which are likely since a few things probably need tweaking) you will get them automatically. But yeah if you just copy it thats cool too. :) -DJSasso (talk) 17:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I get that, and will probably switch it back. I was just playing a little.
Actually, though, one thing people need to keep in mind: If the page is not named exactly the same way in en as in simple, the tab is equivalent to a red link. So the tab that appears on the top of WP:Simple talk, for example, doesn't lead to en:WP:Village pump. It leads to en:WP:Simple talk, which doesn't exist. The interwikis map true in that regard. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That would be part of the tweaks I mentioned. Trying to figure out if I can grab data from wikidata to do it via interwikis. :) But yes as it stands like the old code it only does it via exact same name. This code as it stands is more for a quick check as opposed to having to go search out the interwiki. -DJSasso (talk) 18:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Switched back to "import script."
  2. For those interested, I put a tweaked version of this at wikt:User:StevenJ81/enwiktab.js that you can use in your vector.js on Simple English Wiktionary. (DJSasso: I'm not a programmer and am not going to play with it. Let me know whenever you think your version here is sufficiently upgraded for me to recopy it over there. And I'm not sure they're going to use Wikidata at all over there, so maybe this is just going to stay the way it is.) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Official colors for Historical geology/Geological period articles/templates

I think we should adapt official colors from the International Commission On Stratigraphy. We have Template:Period color for use of the colors. The template has been updated to use the values at (https://engineering.purdue.edu/Stratigraphy/charts/RGB.pdf). Plus it had been upgraded to include all geological periods. We can not use the United States Geological Survey (USGS) colors ,because this wikipedia unites the english world. And that is more then USA and USGS. Some of them is the UK,Australia,and more. Preview shown at Template talk:Geologic History. It has all templates and tables with the colors. I have one quick example here.

Official color preview for
Historical geology/Geological period
articles/templates
Supereon Eon Era Period Epoch Start
Phanerozoic Cainozoic Quaternary Holocene 11,700
Pleistocene 2.588 million
Tertiary Neogene Pliocene 5.333 million
Miocene 23.03 million
Palaeogene Oligocene 33.9 million
Eocene 56 million
Palaeocene 66 million
Mesozoic Cretaceous Upper Cretaceous 100.5 million
Lower Cretaceous 145 million
Jurassic Upper Jurassic 163.5 million
Middle Jurassic 174.1 million
Lower Jurassic 201.3 million
Triassic Upper Triassic 237 million
Middle Triassic 247.2 million
Lower Triassic 252.17 million
Palaeozoic Permian 298.9 million
Carboniferous Pennsylvanian 323.2 million
Mississippian 358.9 million
Devonian 419.2 million
Silurian 443.4 million
Ordovician 485.4 million
Cambrian 541 million
Precambrian Proterozoic Neoproterozoic2 Ediacaran 635 million
Cryogenian 850 million
Tonian 1,000 million
Mesoproterozoic Stenian 1,200 million
Ectasian 1,400 million
Calymmian 1,600 million
Palaeoproterozoic Statherian 1,800 million
Orosirian 2,050 million
Rhyacian 2,300 million
Siderian 2,500 million
Archaean Neoarchaean 2,800 million
Mesoarchaean 3,200 million
Palaeoarchaean 3,600 million
Eoarchaean 4000 million
Hadean 4,567 million

24.218.110.195 (talk) 01:23 30 May 2013 (UTC) 9:23pm 05/29/2013 EDT.

Many of these do not comply with the Manual of Style guidelines for accessibility. The contrast between text and background colours is too low — blue on reds, blue on blues, blue on purples, etcetera, don't work. It might be better if you tried softer shades of each colour in order to make the text more distinguishable. Osiris (talk) 02:32, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've commented elsewhere on how the USGS colours are better for screen use than the ICS colours. A blaze of vivid colours might be suitable for a wallchart, but it is not suitable for screen viewing. Many of the ICS colours obscure the print, and lower readability. It is irrelevant whether the system is American or not; we make decisions based on our perception of what improves our pages.
On a related point, I suggest that templates should usually be set up so they present to the reader in closed format. Both graphics and text should not interfere too much with the flow of test, which is the primary content of a page. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion at English wiki [33] where the same user pushes the same or similar changes. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would also recommend that you use only one of these templates in each article. Phanerozoic, for example, has three different navigational templates for the same thing (links to periods on the geological timescale). Not necessary, especially for such a short page. Osiris (talk) 07:06, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Does enwiki have a standard? That shouldn't automatically be our standard, but I do think we need to think twice before proceeding in a completely different way. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The color choices for Triassic and Precambian are very bad, and I am not color-blind. Color-blindness seems to be common in men, which probably heightens the need for high-contrast images. We should however not be the only one to adapt the colors... --Eptalon (talk) 13:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why not pad the text white like this?:
Triassic Example left
Example shown above
The United States Geological Survey (USGS) colors can not be our standard. Users at en:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geology/Archive 3#Template color changes said that "USGS colors is only for US-only websites." and "I support the international standard colors" The colors listed above is our international standard. Plus Wikipedia is international and the United States Geological Survey (colors) is for USA 24.218.110.195 (talk) 22:00 30 May 2013 (UTC) 6:00pm 05/30/2013 EDT.
User:Eptalon en.wiki does have a standard. All pages about geologic time and using colors use the colors shown here at en.wiki. Our standard is here "Template:Period color" and en.wiki's standard is at "en:Template:Period color". Plus most wikipedias "e.g English,Spanish,German,Hungarian,and more" do use these same exact colors for their geological period articles.
User:Osiris, en.wiki has the same 3 templates to the same thing. At en wiki 1 template links to the subdivisions of a geological period on the top right corner on the page. The 2nd template is a footer that links to the geological stages of the geological period. And the 3rd template links to all Geological time articles.
24.218.110.195 (talk) 22:18 30 May 2013 (UTC) 6:18pm 05/30/2013 EDT.
You have already made this point before, and you are quite wrong. We can use an American (or any other) standard if we think it is right for us. We are concerned with readability and usability by our users, not where an idea comes from. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Macdonald-ross I do not like the USGS colors. The bad things about it are:

  • Lots of Blue colors. It makes it hard for normal colorblind users to see the text.
  • Some grayish dark and gray colors. If a user is badly colorblind they might not see the text.
  • The colors are not for International websites. e.g Wikipedia, Simple English Wikipedia, 284 more Wikipedias, etc.
  • There are no colors of geological stages. e.g Kimmeridgian.
  • It is missing colors of geological periods, from the Stenian to Siderian.

Here are text turned white already. It is shown below.

ICS colors (text turned white) 6 total
Supereon Eon Era Period Epoch Start
Phanerozoic Cainozoic Quaternary Holocene 11,700
Pleistocene 2.588 million
Tertiary Neogene Pliocene 5.333 million
Miocene 23.03 million
Palaeogene Oligocene 33.9 million
Eocene 56 million
Palaeocene 66 million
Mesozoic Cretaceous Upper Cretaceous 100.5 million
Lower Cretaceous 145 million
Jurassic Upper Jurassic 163.5 million
Middle Jurassic 174.1 million
Lower Jurassic 201.3 million
Triassic Upper Triassic 237 million
Middle Triassic 247.2 million
Lower Triassic 252.17 million
Palaeozoic Permian 298.9 million
Carboniferous Pennsylvanian 323.2 million
Mississippian 358.9 million
Devonian 419.2 million
Silurian 443.4 million
Ordovician 485.4 million
Cambrian 541 million
Precambrian Proterozoic Neoproterozoic Ediacaran 635 million
Cryogenian 850 million
Tonian 1,000 million
Mesoproterozoic Stenian 1,200 million
Ectasian 1,400 million
Calymmian 1,600 million
Palaeoproterozoic Statherian 1,800 million
Orosirian 2,050 million
Rhyacian 2,300 million
Siderian 2,500 million
Archaean Neoarchaean 2,800 million
Mesoarchaean 3,200 million
Palaeoarchaean 3,600 million
Eoarchaean 4000 million
Hadean 4,567 million
USGS colors (text turned white) 15 total
Supereon Eon Era Period Epoch Start
Phanerozoic Cainozoic Quaternary Holocene 11,700
Pleistocene 2.588 million
Tertiary Neogene Pliocene 5.333 million
Miocene 23.03 million
Palaeogene Oligocene 33.9 million
Eocene 56 million
Palaeocene 66 million
Mesozoic Cretaceous Upper Cretaceous 100.5 million
Lower Cretaceous 145 million
Jurassic Upper Jurassic 163.5 million
Middle Jurassic 174.1 million
Lower Jurassic 201.3 million
Triassic Upper Triassic 237 million
Middle Triassic 247.2 million
Lower Triassic 252.17 million
Palaeozoic Permian 298.9 million
Carboniferous Pennsylvanian 323.2 million
Mississippian 358.9 million
Devonian 419.2 million
Silurian 443.4 million
Ordovician 485.4 million
Cambrian 541 million
Precambrian Proterozoic Neoproterozoic Ediacaran 635 million
Cryogenian 850 million
Tonian 1,000 million
Mesoproterozoic Stenian 1,200 million
Ectasian 1,400 million
Calymmian 1,600 million
Palaeoproterozoic Statherian 1,800 million
Orosirian 2,050 million
Rhyacian 2,300 million
Siderian 2,500 million
Archaean Neoarchaean 2,800 million
Mesoarchaean 3,200 million
Palaeoarchaean 3,600 million
Eoarchaean 4000 million
Hadean 4,567 million

24.218.110.195 (talk) 12:38 1 June 2013 (UTC) 8:38am 06/01/2013 EDT.

User:Eptalon no no no there's only 2 templates that link to the same thing. One on top one on the bottom. The 3rd one shows how much of Earths history (eon,era,period) it takes up. 24.218.110.195 (talk) 14:59 1 June 2013 (UTC) 10:59pm 06/01/2013 EDT.

Templates for deletion

I see we are getting a number of unused templates for deletion discussion. We should have under Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Templates a clear rationale under unused criterion #1: "Templates which are not used on this wiki are eligible for QD". We are getting a huge number of template imports, many of which do not improve the wiki, and many of which are done by users with little or no experience of our wiki. A clear QD criterion is needed so that they can be pruned in a straightforward manner. They are not good candidates for discussion, IMO. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:46, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I messaged you on your talk page but just noticed this thread. I deleted them based on WP:QD#T2 as they fitted the 'unused template' criteria... Kennedy (talk) 09:55, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for any extra work caused by my RFD'ing those instead of QD'ing. I have nominated similar ones for QD in the past and had the QDs denied because because they didn't fit the reviewing admin's interpretation of the QD criteria. That's not a complaint, just an observation that different people can interpret things in different ways. Therefore, to avoid having to go through two deletion procedures, I just RFD'd them. I would definitely support clarifying the criteria. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. Its open to interpretation. I propose changing the wording from:
"2.They are deprecated or replaced by a newer template and are completely unused and not linked to." to
"2.The template is unused, not linked to or contains no valid article links."
Or something to that effect? Kennedy (talk) 10:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By "valid article links", do you mean links to existing articles ("blue" links)? Also, we might want to add something to allow a little time for the author to get the template into articles. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "blue" links. Good idea, a timescale of 7 days or so in a 'deleteable' state? (not a word, but I've made it one.) Kennedy (talk) 11:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't really open to interpretation. You missed the key word in the criteria which is and. It isn't enough just to be unused or not linked to. It has to have also been replaced by a newer template. -DJSasso (talk) 12:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is open to interpretation. There's an "and" and an "or" in there; that causes the confusion. --Auntof6 (talk) 12:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I suppose I can see that you could say that. Grammar rules would mean the or is only talking about the deprecated and replaced part of the sentence. But I can see how people would be confused I suppose. Either way it is very definitely not about just being unused because even taking the or into account it would require it to be deprecated (ie stopped from being used on purpose which wouldn't be the case of something just imported over and never used) or replaced and is currently unused. In both cases it requires either a deprecation or a replacement in addition to being unused. -DJSasso (talk) 13:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) Actually, the And is the lesser part in that statement. The sentence can be seen as basically a Boolean expression so And is factored before Or. As long as the section before the or is true (is depreciated), the other side doesn't matter. It can have 1K pages transcluding it but if it is depreciated it is a valid reason. Adding in a grammatical bias, it would be They (are deprecated) or ( (replaced by a newer template) and (are completely unused and not linked to)) as the second are is applied to both unused and unlinked. Just being depreciated again makes the statement true. "They are deprecated or replaced by a newer template. The template must also be completely unused and not linked to" would be logically correct and unambiguous for what was meant to be stated.--Creol(talk) 13:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I said either way deprecation would take a discussion to decide to deprecate the template so it couldn't just be done because the template was unused. There had to be a discussion to deprecate the template. Because deprecation is the stopping of using something that is/was used. In both cases just being unused would not fulfill either side of the or. -DJSasso (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely disagree with changing the criterion, or making a new criterion that allows us to delete templates that are simply not in use. That's way too undisciplined, in my opinion: just because a template is not used does not mean that it's useless. There are many good, useful templates that are not currently being used (conversion and calculation templates, multilingual support templates, infoboxes, etcetera). Surely there is no real requirement for anybody to participate in an RfD for something like {{Punch-Out series}}; it can be closed all the same as long as there are no objections. Osiris (talk) 11:07, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with both parts of that statement.. Just because an article is valid for a QD reason, does not mean it has to be deleted. There are many a bio stub which does not explicitly make a claim of notability (hence QDable) but the person is clearly notable and any sane admin would deny the request. The only issue in this situation would be if the admin does not pay attention to what they are doing and does not look to see if a template should not be deleted - that's a personnel issue, not a policy issue. It is also a simple undelete request on the rare time when something useful slips through the cracks. Adding it as a QD reason just gives the admins a valid reasoning to point to if they need to delete a template they see is clearly not useful to us in any way. As to RfD, by your statement, it only takes 1 person to form a consensus. To me, if only one person (the nom) stated it and no one agreed at all, I see that as a no consensus so a keep. --Creol(talk) 13:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If only the nom said delete and no one else commented it is very clearly consensus to delete as there is no objection to the deletion. This is done routinely on en for example with unused templates. They just get listed and at the end of the week when no one has objected they get nuked. It does only take one person to form consensus as long as others were aware of the discussion which they would be if it was posted on Rfd. It is especially the case on simple.wiki because we use our Rfd as our version of both Afd & PROD from en. -DJSasso (talk) 13:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it only takes one person. Consensus arrives with an absence of objections; if there are no objections then you have a consensus. It's under Wikipedia:Consensus#Discussion and Silence. Hundreds of items are deleted every day in areas of the bigger wikis and Commons without any discussion at all; as long as the reason is valid, there is no requirement to have anybody else write their consent. Leaving certain parts of the criteria up to administrator discretion might be useful in some cases, this particular proposal is too wide-reaching. Osiris (talk) 14:24, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By that logic, University of Cambridge needs to be promoted to Good Article status and a discussion started to revert that change. It was nom'd on Jan 11, 2013 with no opposition for the 3 week period following so the nomination passed perfectly fine. As the nomination page is listed on the New Changes header, there is no reason that it was not noticed so silence is agreement that it is a good article. The fact that when people actually got around to looking at it and saw the multiple issues has no bearing as no one said anything during the provided time frame. That issue would have to be brought up in a separate discussion to demote the article. Unlike En:, things slip through unnoticed around here all the time. The fact that no one opposes something can just as easily, or more easily, be that no one looked at. Only if you know for a fact that they saw/heard something and remained silent should you assume consent. Ignorance is not consent. --Creol(talk) 15:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Except the Good Article criteria has a rule that 5 editors must take part for it to be promoted. But deletion is a different matter as we consciously have made it so that it does require objection to stop from being deleted. Now if I came across something that only the nom commented and it wasn't an obvious delete I would leave it open for another week. And then go from there which is how they handle ones that aren't obvious on en. But as for your Unlike En statement, when it comes to deletion I would say we actually get many more eyes on most delete requests than en does cause en sees probably 100+ a day of various types and things fall through the cracks there all the time. I would say our deletions are watched considerably more closely. Especially since we use it as our version of PROD. (ie the deletion method which requires an objection to stop). Silence is consent. And to use what you said...if someone objects later we have a process for that at undeletion requests. I would rather have articles logged at RfD and tracked and have people miss them but have them easily findable than have a random admin speedy them and not a single person notice because as you say things slip through the cracks. We already speedy here way to often as it is. You yourself have been upset about this with empty categories. -DJSasso (talk) 15:33, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is a reason the promotion of articles explicitly requires editorial review; quite a bit more evaluation is involved than is in a deletion proposal for a template or an image. Even if we ignore the 5-participant minimum in the PGA analogy, an editor would never close an unreviewed nomination without reviewing first themself (which is how the process works on enwiki). And if there are obvious problems with an unreviewed nomination then it is obviously not fit for approval. Any editor who closes a discussion with an outcome is approving that outcome. For a navbox that links only to non-existent pages, that's pretty easy to do. You don't need somebody else to come along and explicitly give their consent. Osiris (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then how about something like, "They are completely unused and not linked to, AND they are either deprecated or replaced by a newer template" -- or at least something that would clarify whether the current wording is meant to mean "(deprecated) or (replaced by a newer template and are completely unused and not linked to)" or "(deprecated or replaced by a newer template) and (are completely unused and not linked to)". --Auntof6 (talk) 11:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We can just maybe append a clarifyer to the criterion. It's also possible that our incomplete edit summary QD T2: Unused template is fostering the confusion. Osiris (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I would just modify the edit summary. Because unused template is most definitely not what the QD criteria means. Because lots of templates will never be linked to because they are templates that are intended to be subst'd etc and thus will never have an article link. The QD criteria is meant for templates that have been replaced by a new one and thus we can avoid the time wasting discussion. But a template that is simply unused should go to Rfd. And like on en if no one objects after the time period they are listed they get deleted. People don't even have to comment if they choose not to. I would suggest changing it to QD T2: Replaced by a newer template. Which is the intention of that QD criteria. -DJSasso (talk) 11:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Unused" is the wrong word to use here - we should change it to "deprecated" asap, since that is the original intention of the deletion rationale. Chenzw  Talk  14:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a "teahouse" here yet?

Hello, and I am writing to enquire about whether there is a "teahouse" type of thing here or is the simple talk the equivalent? Thanks, Jcc (talk) 10:12, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think there is a teahouse project here (yet), but if you need more help, just ask. curtaintoad | chat me! 10:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any interest for one? Jcc (talk) 10:18, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not, because if there are any newcomers that need help on this project, they can request on this page. curtaintoad | chat me! 10:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "teahouse"?--Leopardfoot (talk) 16:53, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See ·Add§hore· Talk To Me! 20:33, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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