No action taken (without prejudice to another admin taking action). Volunteer Marek is topic-banned for six months. François Robere is blocked for a week by TonyBallioni. Sandstein 07:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Tatzref
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
While this report discusses content - this is not a content dispute. Content is produced here to prove plagiarism of a dubious SPS that resulted in the introduction of a hoax to an article:
Tatzref is a WP:SPA whose 210 edits over the past year have revolved around Mark Paul, defending Paul in talk pages - first edit, inserting Paul as a source to articles, following consensus this was unreliable - copy-pasting material from Paul - see revdelled edits to Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 from 01:42, 22 May 2018, and recently (evidence below) - paraphrasing content from Paul and copying citations.
This academic source describes a work by Paul as "expressing the myth" of "the ungrateful Jew". (Per this academic source "ungrateful Jew" = "antisemitic trope")
See RSN, and RfC on Paul (note comment on Tatzref) - consensus not to use this WP:SPS.
The "pimp pogrom" and moreso the "Jewish restitution text" are WP:PLAGIARISM (no attribution) of Paul. See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for detailed analysis.
The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".[5]
The "Jewish restitution text" contains severe misrepresentations rising to WP:HOAX (sentence names per User:Icewhiz/Illustration)
Jewish fraud - verified vs. source - there was widespread fraud. However, there was also non-Jewish ("fake Jewish" claimants) and Jewish/Polish joint fraud ventures - omitted.
Thousands of reclaims - WP:OR and misrepresentation of sources (I have both, can send upon request). Kopciowski2008 (English) supports "over 240 cases filed", and Kopciowski2005 (Polish) supports "total of 291 files". Neither source tallies success vs. failure (though many were successful). Neither source (both local microhistories) support "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" that the sentence asserts. (per this academic source- it is hard to estimate, but "extremely small")
Restitution law - this sentence is cited to 38 pages in Polish (two works) and 1 page in English (one work - again a microhistory). I have checked the sources, and it seems to me a libelous (to the cited authors) misrepresentation. I will not send admins to read Polish (But see summary at end of Haaretz here) - but I will refute (sourced) several falsehoods packed into this sentence:
"in effect until the end of 1948" - the 1945 decree was annulled in March 1946.[6][7] (claims continued under different laws till 1948)
"or their relatives and heirs...reclaim simplified" - by design of Polish lawmakers ONLY directly ascending/descending-line heirs could use the simplified route, and this only resulted in possession, not title.[8]
"expedited/21 days/same day" - "rarely as simple" for occupied properties.[9]
"minimal costs" - 800 zloty (almost a month's wages) to file, 20,000 zloty (20 monthly wages) for case. Majority couldn't afford without help.[10]
"outside the country" - Poland block returns from DP camps, Jews returning from USSR came after claims deadline in 1948,[11] "we will not permit some foreign Jews..."[12]
Notable omission - claimants "were often murdered". [13]
Notable omission - no restitution of state property/intent (including Nazi handovers to the state).[14]
Clarified use of 2017 source in point 2. In regards to Plagiarism - the text itself is an obvious paraphrase of Paul without attribution to Paul, Some 407(of 723) & 1557(of 3002) chars in the edits are are outright copies of Paul's citations (down to order, page numbers, and style) - this is not by chance, Tatzref cited material not required (even off-topic) to content he actually added to the article. When basing work off of a source (Paul), WP:PLAGIARISM requires attribution (to Paul). See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for full analysis.Icewhiz (talk) 06:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: - even ignoring questions of copyright on citation style (which are unique) and ordering - quoting Wikipedia:Plagiarism - "Summarizing a source in your own words, without citing the source in any way, may also be a form of plagiarism, as well as a violation of the Verifiability policy.". If you look at User:Icewhiz/Illustration, you will see the prose is a paraphrased summary of the bits of Paul's manuscript I quoted there. This ties in to source misrepresentation - for instance "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" in Tatzref's edit - this is not present in the very local microhistories by Kopciowski (each references a single courthouse) - this is present only in Paul who himself does not cite a source for this (he compiles an argument based on dozens(!!!) of examples/sources in the four page long footnote5)). Icewhiz (talk) 11:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Sandstein: - I apologize for the excessive length and complexity - it took me many hours to research&compile this. Ignoring long-term conduct patterns and weaker violations, the the main argument in a nutshell is that (6) 16:37, 22 February 2019 - insertion of "Jewish restitution text" - is WP:PLAGIARISM of [15] (which isn't cited, see User:Icewhiz/Illustration for evidence) + a misrepresentation/OR of the sources it does cite(11). This is a violation of a number of policies - WP:V in using a WP:QSWP:SPS (and WP:V+WP:OR in relation to the misrepresented cited sources), WP:NPOV, WP:PLAGIARISM, acting against consensus on Paul (RSN, and RfC), and attempting to evade scrutiny/mislead other editors by "stealth introducing" content from a source that would be challenged and removed immediately were it cited directly. The same applies (in a weaker fashion) to (7) 21:25, 24 February 2019, "pimp pogrom" (WP:PLAGIARISM of page 152, misrepresentation(10)).Icewhiz (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to Tatzref's stmt - I never claimed #10 (pimp pogrom) or Jewish trade slaving were a HOAX - this was said on #11. The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites (which appear in Paul in the same order and formatting) in a number of ways (not attributing a 1905 Reuter report as done in Bristow, Ury says 100 apartments and 40 injured - the text says 100 injured and 40 legal brothels). All sources I have seen (including those cited) present this as only or mainlyinner-Jewish violence (two Jewish groups fighting one another) - the exception being the Mark Paul SPS - and Tatzref's text. I helped expand the new Alfonse Pogrom, but this is probably undue in a high level article covering hundreds of years which currently covers the 1905 revolution (many events) in two half sentences.Icewhiz (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to VM, edits - [16] including "During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination", or [17] including "eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination". (not appearing in the source it cites), both returned after a challenge on sourcing/fact, may merit scrutiny.Icewhiz (talk) 03:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Tatzref
Since so many allegations have been leveled and I require time time to look and address at each carefully (I do not have the luxury of spending the better part of my day editing Wikipedia), I will be responding to the diffs piecemeal, after which I will provide a general wrap-up statement. The first installment deals with #10 -- allegedly part of my overall strategy to introduce a "hoax" into an article. Wikipedia defines "hoax" as "a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth." Please be mindful that the allegations impute to me all sorts of devious motivation. Therefore, if any allegation is manifestly untrue, I believe it is appropriate for me to comment on the possible motivation for it having been put forward.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TIMING AND EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE REQUEST
On February 24, 2019, User Yaniv (יניב הורון) was blocked indefinitely from editing "for Tendentious editing across multiple topic areas and time frames” (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F&oldid=884873194). Tatzref (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC) This occurred after it came to the attention of the administrator that Yaniv had deleted text of mine as being allegedly “antisemitic vandalism.” This was deemed to be a “personal attack” and “a chilling tactic designed to stifle opposition, as documented above, and is textbook tendentious editing.” The following is the text in question, found in the article “History of the Jews in Poland” -- under the heading “Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property.”[reply]
A restitution law "On Abandoned Real Estates" of May 6, 1945 allowed property owners who had been dispossessed, or their relatives and heirs, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property under a simplified inheritance procedure. The law remained in effect until the end of 1948. An expedited court process, entailing minimal costs, was put in place to handle claims. Applications had to be examined within 21 days, and many claims were processed the day they were filed. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Many properties were also transferred and sold by Jewish owners outside this process.[229] The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.”[230] Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties).[231]
In his strenuous defense of Yaniv, Icewhiz stated: “Yaniv’s description of the content may have been overly frank, however the problem is with the content itself - not commentary thereof. That suchWP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources (and yes - this is a WP:BLP issue towards the miscited authors - Grabowski&Libionka) - is inserted onto the English Wikipedia is shameful, and that users get blocked for attempting to rectify this - is even more shameful. … There are other editors here who should have been blocked here. As it stands - the English Wikipedia would seem to accept such content, while blocking those who would call it out.”
Icewhiz’s allegation that the text purged by Yaniv (יניב הורון), as allegedly “antisemitic vandalism,” in fact constitutes “WP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources” is every bit as offensive and baseless as Yaniv’s. Wikipedia defines “hoax” as “a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth.” Set out below is the impugned text in question. No cogent evidence had been presented that any statement it contains is a “hoax” or that the sources (pages of publications) cited do not support those statements. Until Icewhiz produces such evidence serious consideration should be given to blocking his participation in Polish-related issues for the same reason that Yaniv has been blocked.
5. Re: “16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref.” Allegedly, this is part and parcel of my “hoax” agenda.
The latest version of the disputed text is found in the following passage in “History of Jews in Poland,” under the heading “Early history: 966–1385.”
As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves.[34] The trade in Christian slaves was opposed by the Catholic Church.[35]
On February 23, 2019, Icewhiz objected to the inclusion of the second sentence and removed it. That sentence was referenced to Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Jews in Poland: A Documentary History, Hippocrene Books (1993), pp. 257–266.
A little background is needed to properly understand what’s going on. Jewish traders (Radhanites) first came to Poland in the 10th century. Among other things, they traded in Christian slaves, which historians describe as their most lucrative commodity. These slaves were taken to foreign slave markets. The Catholic Church and some of the ruling class were opposed to that trade. A conflict with the Church ensued. When I joined Wikipedia in May 2018, there was nothing in the main text about the activities of these Jewish traders. However, there was an accompanying illustration with the following caption: “Adalbert of Prague freeing Slavic Christian slaves from Jewish merchants—relief of Gniezno Cathedral Doors.” Pogonowski’s book, which was listed under “References” and in several “Notes,” contains extensive information about this trade.
In June 2018, I added information about this trade into the article. This met with some opposition. The matter was then discussed at length in Talk, with my providing numerous scholarly sources, including YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe and a statement by Professor Hanna Zaremska, curator of a gallery at POLIN The Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw that features a display on this topic. The sources I provided amply supported what I wrote. Six people, including myself, participated in the discussion. After some back and forth, there was apparent acceptance by all the participants but one that it was appropriate to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church. Three editors including Icewhiz were involved in drafting or reviewing the following text:
As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves.[33] Kraków became an important outpost on the route for Jewish merchants who brought slaves from Poland and other countries to Western Europe. In the 12th century Jews were excluded from the slave trade, due to the Catholic Church objecting to Jews dealing in Christian slaves.[34] Reference: YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe
However, MShabazz, who had previously characterized my text as “original research” and called me “dense” (“You seem to think that all Wikipedia editors are as dense as you are”) objected to the expansion of the text and kept deleting portions of it stating, “I still don't see any consensus to include this disproportionate content.” I replied to MShabazz as follows in Talk:
Three editors worked on the revised text which appropriately takes into account the heightened importance both the YIVO Encyclopedia and POLIN The History of Polish Jews (see above), as well as other sources, place on this particular "commodity," because of its lucrative nature and the ensuing conflict with the Catholic Church. This is not giving undue weight but rather important context. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity.Tatzref (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
None of the other Talk participants objected to the above statement. If Icewhiz believed it was inaccurate he should have spoken up at the time. He didn’t.
I was inactive from early July until late February 2019 (with one exception). On my return, on February 22, I added the following text into the article: “The trade in Christian slaves was opposed by the Catholic Church.” On February 23, Icewhiz removed that text stating, “We discussed slavery at length at length in the talk page (last archive) - this waa rejected - gain consensus prior to reinserting, and please avoid cook.”
I maintain that there was no clear consensus not to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church to the slave trade, and that 5 out of 6 participants either approved of or did not object to its inclusion in July 2018. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the information I added on February 22 is consistent with what is found in the accompanying illustration.Tatzref (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
10. According to Icewhiz, “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".”
The article in question is “History of the Jews in Poland.” Below is my text as it read prior to its removal by Icewhiz on February 25, 2019, for this stated reason: “A number of misrepresentations, miss-attribution, and probably UNDUE.”
Three days of rioting in Warsaw in late May 1905, known as the Alfonse or pimp pogrom, involving bands of armed Jewish workers and members of the Jewish underworld claimed the lives of 8 to 15 people, with more than 100 injured. The workers looted and destroyed 40 legal brothels and places frequented by pimps.[1]
Bristow states at p. 61: “Reuter, the British news agency, reported forty houses of ill fame demolished, eight persons killed and one hundred injured.” Ury states, at. p. 127, “five people were killed in the events themselves, another ten died from wounds they incurred during the mayhem, and over forty were hospitalized.”
My text sets out a range of deaths, even though it appears that the higher count (15) is probably more accurate. Obviously, “injured” and “hospitalized” do not carry the same meaning, nor are they necessarily coextensive. In all likelihood, not everyone injured would have required hospitalization. Icewhiz’s point about “inner-Jewish violence” is perplexing. Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews. In his monumental “The Jews in Poland and Russia,” Polonsky has no problem in squarely placing this important event, which occurred in the context of a major social problem faced by the Jewish community at the time, in the overall history of the Jews in Poland. That entire topic surely deserves a separate Wikipedia article, not just a short passage in this article.
Clearly, Icewhiz’s allegations are baseless on all counts and thoroughly undermine his credibility. This was the bloodiest and deadliest pogrom in Warsaw’s history until World War II. It was an important event that has an extensive academic literature. The suppression of this information has nothing to do with any alleged multiple “misrepresentations, miss-attribution” of sources or with UNDUE. Those are demonstrably bogus charges. Furthermore, purging the information, I believe, goes beyond mere POV. It undermines the reliability of Wikipedia as an objective source of information.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Subsequently, Icewhiz alleged plagiarism of Mark Paul. A comparison of the relevant texts does not bear this out. My terse and factual text is clearly based on Bristow and Ury, the two leading sources that most authors writing on this topic cite. Just because Mark Paul referred to those same sources (as well as many others) in his lengthy commentary on this topic does not taint their use by others. Many authors writing on a particular topic cite many of the same sources, and it is not an accepted practice to acknowledge that other authors have previously referred to those sources or that they learned about those sources from other authors' publications.Tatzref (talk) 02:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Edward J. Bristow, Prostitution and Prejudice: The Jewish Fight Against White Slavery 1870–1939, Clarendon Press, 1982, pp. 58-61; Scott Ury, Barricades and Banners: The Revolution of 1905 and the Transformation of Warsaw Jewry, Stanford University Press, 2012, pp. 126-129; Antony Polonsky, The Jews in Poland and Russia, Volume 2: 1881–1914, Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 2010, p. 93
Statement by Roscelese
I don't do a lot of editing in this topic area and I'll defer to people who do, but my previous encounters with Tatzref led me to strongly suspect socking or off-wiki coordination as detailed here, due in large part to the account's singleminded crusade towards adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by VM
Ok. First, this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked by User:TonyBallioni. Icewhiz seems to want to "even the score". In regard to his points, one by one;
I would consider Mark Paul a low quality source. I wouldn't use it myself. However it HAS in fact been cited in scholarly publications. It is also a FALSE CLAIM that Tatzref used the source "following consensus this was unreliable". As you can see for yourself no consensus on this question was ever reached.
The source refers to Paul as a "mild" version of whatever this is suppose to be. This appears to be an academic dispute. Icewhiz's second link, which accuses Mark Paul, a WP:BLP of using anti-semitic tropes... doesn't even mention Mark Paul.
Yes, but this RfC took place AFTER Icewhiz's diff in #1 and on a different article.
Shrug. Insinuation.
???. The text about slaves was already in there. Taztref just added that it was opposed by the Catholic Church.
The claim that this is WP:PLAGARISM is blatantly FALSE. First, for it to be PLAGARISM, it would have to be unattributed. But this is cited by Taztref. Even if we're talking about WP:COPYVIO that is not true either as the text is obviously different in the source provided by Icewhiz. What seems to be going on here is that there is one source, used by Tatzref (Kopciowski) which says one thing, and then another source, Mark Paul, FOUND BY ICEWHIZ which says something similar. Icewhiz then is asserting that because a source HE FOUND, says something similar to a source that Tatzref found... it must be "plagiarism". ... ... how does that make sense? What really seems to be going on here is probably that Icewhiz suspects that Tatzref used a source by Mark Paul but attributed the text to a different source, because Mark Paul is a low quality source. However, Icewhiz most likely does not have access to the source used by Tatzref so he can't verify that. Accusing Tatzref of "plagiarism" then is his round-about way of making that accusation while hoping that no one notices the bad faith involved and the fact he has no support for his suspicions what so ever. For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either.
Ditto.
Uh... that discussion was just started yesterday. Tatzref does not appear to have made any edits to the article since. What kind of nonsense is this?
All I got time for right now. Maybe there's something bad in the rest of the diffs. But the first 8 seems to be spurious and quite false in their presentations.
And regarding Roscelese point - yes, there does appear to be some similarity between Tatzref and GGB and prolly someone should file a check user. The similarity could just be due to the nature of the topic and the popularity of some of the sources among the Canadian Polish diaspora. But yeah, it should be checked.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Francois Robere: Care to elaborate as to what you think my "motives" are? No? Then strike the bad faithed weaselly insinuations please.
Re #5 - the quotes from EverGreen and Malik are not even about the text that Icewhiz includes in his diff! His diffs are about Tatzref adding 'slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church" to the article, and Icewhiz pretends like this is some kind of horrid thing do add (and it's in the sources)
Re #6 - No, it looks like Taztref just used sources that Mark Paul used.
Re #7 - what's your point? "There are also other words in the source which were not used so that's BAD!!!!" ???
Re #9 - what in the world are you talking about? What are you even referencing? Your quote does not appear anywhere on this page.
Re #11 - "this is all very bad"LOL. Are you just being lazy? I think your whole statement is "all very bad". Very very very very very bad. Super bad. If you're gonna say "it's bad" you need to explain WHY.
Dude, you're just throwing random mud, muddy, confusing mud which is hard to understand, and engaging in theatrics about how "bad" something is, hoping that something will stick, but don't actually support any of your assertion. Look, it's not a secret that both you and Icewhiz, along with the recently indef'd Yanniv [18] (freakin' a!!! that list of overlap is long!!! Might want to be more subtle in the future), had frequent disputes with Tatzref. Since one of your tag team got indef'd, you and Icewhiz are now trying to "level the odds" by throwing together a spurious WP:AE report which is really nothing more than a content dispute.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Icewhiz's #11 is ridiculous. He claims it's a "HOAX" and a "libel" but if you actually read what he's complaining about it's all about the fact that there are OTHER sources which address DIFFERENT details which Taztref didn't include. Why not just add these others sources and details? Did Tatzref try to remove them or something? No? Then this is just silly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Admins - Francois Robere says that admins have been negligent in "protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism". It's clear that by "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism" he means User:GizzyCatBella. This is WP:ASPERSIONS and a pretty serious accusations. But FR provides ZERO evidence to support it. Let's see the diffs (and I mean actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations) of GCB engaging in ANY kind of "vandalism", ethnically motivated or otherwise. Or ethnic prejudice. If he can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban, just like Yanniv got from User:TonyBallioni, because it's exactly the same thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein writes: " In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked" - Yanniv did indeed get recently indef blocked. Since User:TonyBallioni was the one who did the blocking, and since he has commented here, I saw o reason to provide a diff for this very obvious facts. Icewhiz was the one who started the relevant edit wars [19][20], Yanniv then reverted back to Icewhiz's version with a disruptive edit summary that got him blocked, Icewhiz then tried to intervene on behalf of Yanniv, and against Tatzref on Yanniv's talk page with Tony [21]. Again, since Tony was involved in all of this, there was no need to provide "diffs" as he was already aware. If my comment was problematic Tony, not Sandstein would be the one to make that call.
Sandstein then writes: "and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team" - yes, I made that accusation, but I *did* provide evidence. Here it is again [22]. The three editors have edited 500 articles and talk pages together. Most of them obscure. For a combined 10849 edits. Ten thousand. Eight hundred. Forty. Nine. In about a year. A Grand Tatnum's worth of editing together. AND out of that 500, 200 are articles/talk pages with edit made within 24 hours of each other. 100 of them involved articles/talk pages with edits made within 3 hours of each other. That means these edits are either reverting together, sequentially, or supporting quickly each other in talk page discussions. Note that I did NOT accuse Icewhiz etc. of off-wiki coordination. That's almost impossible to show. But the evidence of tag-team behavior is right there. You can dispute the strength of that evidence. But you cannot claim that, contra Sandstein, it was not provided.
Sandstein then writes: "among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements" - speaking of unbacked accusations! *Which* statements? I'm disputing the accuracy of Icewhiz's diffs. I think they don't show what he claims they show. It's gonna be "confrontative", there's just no other way to do it.
Sandstein then writes: "that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request." - oh this one is complete bullshit. I even freaking numbered my statements so that'd it be easier to see which specific claim of Icewhiz's it addressed. If Icewhiz writes "1) something something something" and I write "1) but no something something something" then that has a pretty freaking obvious "bearing" on the subject of this enforcement. This is... just.... uh, completely false.
And seriously. If my comment was indeed problematic, the proper response would be to ask me to strike it. Barring that, it would be to impose a sanction on me commenting on WP:AE. But to pull a six month topic ban out of thin air - even though NONE of my edits to actual articles have been brought into question - ??? Yeah, that's insane.Volunteer Marek (talk)
Statement by GizzyCatBella (unrelated to the original request)
I strongly object to being labeled "singleminded crusader adding racistpseudohistorical sources into articles".[23] This is a slanderous, groundless accusation, and I expect an apology. I also demand urgent "check user" being processed to stop speculation of me being in any way connected to the user in question. GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by François Robere
@Volunteer Marek: I don't know what Icewhiz's motives are and I don't care - much could be said about your motives as well - as the report itself is justified. Tatzref's SPA nature was in question from their very first edit, and Roscelese wasn't wrong adding them to an SPI request I filed some time ago regarding another user.
#5: Notice what others are saying: EvergreenFir notes that Tatzref "[left out] important context"; MShabazz notes that "Choosing to force in a few facts while ignoring the hundreds of others mentioned in the same sources, often on the same pages, is not acceptable behavior"; and Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest.
#6 includes a short paraphrase of Paul (starting in p. 2 of the source) along with data from its footnotes, with no attribution. Looks like plagiarism.
#7 Not straight-up plagiarism (ie. copying as-is with no attribution), but they did rely on Paul. Polonsky is cited for support, but in the source he's cited for other claims then those made here; he was probably copied along with Bristow without actually reading what he says.
#9 You should put that at the top... I went through the text looking for those bits. Otherwise it's convincing.
#11 This is all very bad.
It took me the better part of an hour and a half going through this. I second Icewhiz's findings, and support an indefinite ban on Tatzref from all topics related to Jews, Judaism and Jewish history, along with a warning against using non-RS for any purpose.
I would also like to note, again, that our admins have been consistently negligent in protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism. The fact that Bella is still allowed to comment anywhere even vaguely related to Jews and Jewish history, after having committed more egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity than Tatzref ever has, is a sign of their failure. François Robere (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Piotrus
Zeroth. Responding to ping by Francois above and making a full statement.
First, regarding the request itself, I've recently suggested at talk of one of the articles to Tatzref to add quotations to some of his claims. TBH, I don't see much serious problems here - this request should be put on hold until relevant quotations are added, or not. With WP:OFFLINE in mind, unless another editor actually bothers to analyze sources used and provide relevant quotations showing that Tatzref additions are hoaxes, all we have going on here is a seemingly baseless accusation that some other editors 'don't think Tatzref is representing sources correctly'. Perhaps he is not, hard to say without sources, but WP:AFG suggests we should not be making such claims without sources / analysis to the contrary, and so far I haven't seen much of those, so.... PS. Francois said " Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest." While the latter is true (I can't verify it, offline sources) I never said that "sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim". Where did I say that?? If I cannot verify them how can I know whether they support it or not??? Francois makes no diff in his claim of what I said, and I find it rather worrisome that words are being put in my mouth that I do not recall saying. The only comment I can think of that is relevant from recent days is [24] and what I say there should be pretty clear (that I am AGFing Tatzref additions, but I ask him to add quotations if possible to ease verification).
Second, it is a bit strange, to say the least, to see a report on two editors start by two other editors getting banned/restricted. It is nice to see occasionally WP:NPA being taken seriously (I don't hang around AE and such these days much, few years ago NPA was seen as a joke, if things are finally changing in that regard, it is overall a good thing).
Third. As much as I support enforcing NPA and such, I want to caution Sandstein to take a bit more time before swinging ban hammer and making block and ban decisions. I note that Tony has for example asked others whether such an action he intends to take is appropriate. That's commendable restrain. But Sandstein has topic banned VM instantly. I have two issues with that. First, few months ago Sanstein topic banned User:Poeticbent, the most prolific editor in the Polish-Jewish topics, creator of many DYKs and GAs, for what he perceived as a (single) personal attack on Icehwiz (see User_talk:Poeticbent/Archive_16#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction). Offended, Poeticbent has quit Wikipeia and has not edited even since his t-ban expired months ago. Why did Sandstein issue an area topic ban for the most prolific content creator in that area instead of a civility/discussion-related restriction? I don't know, but in the hindsight it is clear IMHO that it was the wrong restriction, and it has led to a loss of a valuable editor. I realize this discussion is not a place to re-assess an old AE decision, but my point is that something similar may be happening here right now. Sandstein saw something he perceived as a personal attack, and without consulting others, decided to topic ban yet another editor for a perceived personal attack instead of considering a civility type of restriction (like a topic ban from discussion pages of EE articles, or a warning that another NPA in that area will result in a stricter measure). A half a year topic ban from an entire content area for a single unrelated NPA in AE is something I feel other admins should at the very least have to review and consult. Last but not least, I thought that at AE and such, the standards for NPA and such were somewhat lower, to reduce any chilling effects people may have in discussing other editors. While VM comment uses perhaps rather direct and strong language, I do not think that suggesting a connection between a ban of another editor and a motivation to criticize yet another editor here is some far fetched personal attack that should not be considered. I am not saying I agree with VM assessment of Icehwiz motivations, but it a statement of fact to say that 1) Yanniv (errr, ניב הורון ? - same nick? There is no User:Yanniv....) reverted Tatzref edits, VM and Icehwiz got involved in a related small edit war at History of Polish Jews, perhaps some other pages - I am not monitoring this in detail 2) Yanniv got banned by TB 3) Tatzref posted a message critical of Icehwiz to several talk pages [25], [26], [27] under heading of 'Icewhiz's defamatory allegations' or similar. 4) Icehwiz opens an AE against Tatzref. I do not think this AE request is a simple as a 'payback report', but again, there is a sort connection between ניב הורון 's block and this AE. I'd leave to the reviewing admins to judge if the connection is relevant here, and if so, what are the motivations for it. But to topic ban another editor for making an (bad-faithed, fair enough) argument that such a connection exists is IMHO rather unfair (6 months?), a wrong tool (civility restriction would be better suited than a topic ban) and finally, a chilling effect (WP:BOOMERANG is all good, but there's a point we can seriously scare people from posting anything in AE if we are too ban-hammer happy on comments like that).
Fourth. If anything I said above would be considered a personal attack, or any related form of offence, and would lead 'someone' to consider banning or blocking me, please give me a chance to WP:REFACTOR any possibly offensive content before hammering me. TIA.
Fifth, and going back to the two main editors in this AE. I respect Icehwiz for inserting a valued POV into many related discussions, but I'd caution him to try to reduce his presence in AE. While it is my subjective view, perhaps, all AE incidents in the last two years two years I can recall reading seem to involve him. At the very least, this must be stressful. Perhaps a change of attitude of sorts may be healthy? I used find myself at AE quite often a decade ago or so. A change of my attitude to wiki and adoption of more friendly and forgiving attitude has, I think, worked out quite well for me. It is a good reminder to all that other editors here are generally also trying to help, and that a good way of settling our differences does not have to involve calling admins for help and receiving a few semi-random bans on occasion, but instead, remembering WP:AGF and trying to meet other editors half-way. See also my essays at User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom for my thoughts on related issues. Reading those essays is probably going to be less stressful than reading this thread :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here01:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to K.e.coffman note below: there is no denying that Tatzref is not neutral (and that's ok per WP:NPOV). I'd suggest however staying away from Godwin's law. In your comment about your google search you mention Stormfront, that could lead some readers to think there is a connection ("these audiences") between the respectable Polish-American NGO ([28]), and neo-Nazis. I don't think that's fair comparison. And I don't even see Stormfront in the hits I get after clicking your link, but I see that quote being used in NYBooks book review... Anyway, Tazref is not citing Paul these days. And if he cites reputable scholars that Paul cites as well, that's shouldn't be an issue - if he is using WP:RS, that's the end of the story. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here07:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by K.e.coffman (Tatzref)
On the point of SPI, I don't think it would be helpful as it's unlikely that GCB and Tatzref are the same people. While there are similarities (both accounts promoted and defended KPK & Mark Paul), the editing styles are too different. Mutual connection to KPK is far more likely.
On the original report, I believe it has merit. I've participated in the related disputes and had a chance to observe Tatzref's editing from the beginning. This is not a content dispute, but an on-going and problematic pattern of advocacy-based editing and promotion of fringe theories.
His very first edit was to defend the fringe author Mark Paul: [29]. Paul, for example, subscribes to the idea that the Jews in the Soviet zone of occupation in 1939-41 were de facto Nazi collaborators; see here: Paul's thesis. Tatzref does as well: [30], bottom of diff: "Collaborating with one of these states in furthering these goals constituted de facto collaboration with the other."
I've asked Tatzref early on if he was connected to KPK; there was no response: KPK Toronto
Most of his editing was connected to KPK / Mark Paul. For example, he offered this defense of Mark Paul, ostensibly quoting Jan Karski's writing from WW2 (?): [31].
Just now, I picked a random portion of this quote and googled it: "unjustly denigrating conditions in Poland before the war". Two of the results are KPK / Mark Paul, and one is Stormfront. This suggests what type of audiences find this discourse attractive.
Specific to the recent dispute, when I saw the material added by Tatzref [32], I found it likewise non-neutral and possibly cherry-picked. It was also oddly ref-bombed. So I was not surprised at all when Icewhiz posted a PDF from Mark Paul where the same narrative was being advanced. I share Icewhiz's suspicion that Tatzref is using Mark Paul as his actual source and just copy pasting citations in to create an impression of RS being used. He might have access to all these sources -- who knows? He did not say as he did not participate in the Talk page discussion: History of the Jews in Poland#Recent edits. Ref bombing also makes the material hard to verify.
In summary, I find Tatzref's editing to be contrary to Wikipedia's goals. His SPA contributions ([33]) advance fringe theories by using cherry-picked materials while promoting dubious publications. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: Here's the Stormfront post in question: Polish-Jewish Relations in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland, 1939–1941: "Indeed very interesting what is brought to light here...", and a link to the KPK document: http://www.kpk.org/english/toronto/sovocc.pdf. I would like to know why a respectable org would publish a fringe author such as Mark Paul who asserts that Jews collaborated with the Nazis while under the Soviet rule, and why Tatzref believes the same: [34]. Perhaps he can explain his statement here.
Simply, as a matter of procedures, what should happen here? First, this thread needs to be closed. Second, if it will be closed with the 6 month topic ban for VM, and VM disagrees, he needs to discuss this matter politely and reasonably with the blocking admin. If this does not result in anything, and VM disagree, he then should make an appeal on AE. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I also think the topic ban for VM was unjustified. I believe his recent comments on this noticeboard, including questioning the motivation of the filer, are a justifiable opinion and can be supported by diffs. One can disagree with VM, but this is not a valid reason for a 6 month topic ban from all EE subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Nishidani
Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews.
Tatzref. Icewhiz was quite correct in arguing that, having read the sources, you omitted that the Alfonse pimp pogrom was a Jew on Jew matter. A pogrom, we all assume, is almost invariably an inter-ethnic form of violence, and omitting this crucial fact of its 'infra-ethnic' character, you left the impression Jews may have been attacking (Catholic) Poles, whatever your intent. On the other hand, Icewhiz had a simple option, rather than deleting this apposite datum: merely tweaking it to clarify it was an infra-Jewish outbreak of violence (and probably impelled by a desire to rid their community of practices which played into the hands of anti-Semites). It looks as though, rather than carefully assaying and reporting the facts neutrally, both of you are slanting the data, by different forms of omission.Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by MyMoloboaccount
While I am not involved in this particular dispute I am know about this event and can state with 100% certainity that one of the claims by Icewhiz is wrong according to scholarly sources.
According to Icewhiz in point 10 “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise"
The point raised by Icewhiz about this being inter-Jewish conflict is definitely wrong.
All the scholarly source I read on this subject write that while it started as conflict between Jewish groups it later involved Polish workers and impoverished members of the society.There is also an additional layer to this as from what I remember in later stage of the violence converts to Catholicism from Judaism were targeted by Jewish rioters-I will have to dig the sources aboutthis particular part of the event but there was definitely a lot of this in the press published from what I recall.
In any case Icewhiz now has admitted that it wasn't solely inter-Jewish violence according to the sources on the discussion page for the articlePolish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere., so I believe it would be appropriate for him to remove this particular accussation and point against Tatzref.
@Roscelese and Volunteer Marek: if either of you file an SPI and request CU feel free to ping me and I can assess to see if CU is needed. I'm not familiar with the users in question, so diffs directly comparing the users would be helpful. This isn't really relevant to the AE report, but since I was pinged and I'm somewhat familiar with the article's drama recently, I thought I'd respond to that unrelated point. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Setting aside the main issue for a moment, I find Volunteer Marek's conduct here worthy of interest. They note that casting aspersions is prohibited, and that accusations must be backed by "actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations", and that if an editor "can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban". I agree. But I intend to apply these principles to Volunteer Marek. In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked", and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team", among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request. This is inacceptable and disruptive conduct. I note that Volunteer Marek has a relatively long record of AE sanctions going back to 2011, both in the Eastern Europe and in the US politics topic area. This has got to stop. I am topic-banning Volunteer Marek for six months from anything related to Eastern Europe. I am leaving the thread open to allow discussion of the original request. Sandstein 21:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The sanction isn't for one sentence, but for the whole of the statement above, in which Volunteer Marek treats Wikipedia as a battlegound. Wikipedia is not a forum for "free speech", but a collaborative encyclopedia project; and AE in particular is not some kind of speaker's corner, but an administrative board whose very function it is to prevent disruption of the project, so it's probably the very worst place for these kinds of antics. Sandstein 12:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's for one sentence (or possibly two). The rest of the statement is generally replying to the filing party's claims, many of which are indeed dubious. This is far too harsh. Re-think it please. Black Kite (talk)14:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For similar reasons, I am also logging a warning to François Robere not to cast aspersions against others without convincing evidence. François Robere has fallen significantly short of the expected conduct of a Wikipedian by accusing another editor, who is not the subject of this request, and who is topic-banned and cannot reply here, of "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism", and of violating "egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity". I am not proceeding to sanctions at this time because it appears that François Robere has no prior AE sanctions. Sandstein 22:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein, if you don't have objections, I am prepared to block Frances Robere for a week under Eastern Europe AE. Accusations of racist vandalism in what is effectively a content dispute is extremely disruptive, and in my view merits a block on the first instance. If there had been previous AE sanctions, I would make it indef, but this type of behaviour is toxic and needs to stop. It also makes it more difficult to deal with the actual racists vandals we get all the time when people try to use it as a trump card at noticeboards and in disputes. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked. Still no comment on the underlying request, because it involves so much getting into the weeds of the content that it honestly feels like something that needs to be dealt with on talk pages, though I do understand the POV pushing argument, so I'll leave that for others to decide. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to the original complaint, as far as I can tell the plagiarism claims areplagiarism claim 6 is just that Tatzref cited the same works as Paul, in the same order, in a similar citation style. While it's certainly possible that Tatzref copied the citations and changed the citation style slightly, I don't see anything wrong with that. There's nothing original about citing a work and it's perfectly natural to follow citations from one work (whether reliable or not) on to other reliable sources. Do we need inline citations for where a list of citations were found now? No. That leaves a bad taste in the mouth for assessing the rest of the complaint. Icewhiz's points 2 and 3 are not comments on Tatzref at all but on Mark Paul. Points 6, 7 and 9 are the "plagiarism" I've described above. That leaves:
Point 4 - Tatzref has been asked repeatedly whether they have a COI and have consistently ignored the question (I think a similar case was discussed at AN or ANI recently but I can't turn it up on the spur of the moment).
Point 5 - Adding emphasis to Jewish trade in Christian slaves after repeated discussions which showed no consensus for it. This is not great, but it's at the mild end of things, IMO.
Point 8 - Not participating in a discussion of the text in dispute. Again, not great, but we're all volunteers.
Points 10 and 11 - Source misrepresentation. I've only started looking into this. On it's face, this is a content dispute and I'm not sure at this point it rises to the level of disruption, but as I say I've only just started looking into it.
Point 1 - The allegation that Tatzref is an SPA pushing Mark Paul ideas into wikipedia. I've only just started looking into this one, too. IMO this is the one all the rest turn on; if true, then the rest all starts to look like political POV-pushing. If not, the rest are valid content disputes.
Hopefully that saves whoever comes along next some time digging into it all. I'll keep looking at it but don't have heaps of time today. Anyone looking at this should bear in mind that this is an area of history that remains the subject of considerable controversy; as such, we should not necessarily expect to find consensus in reliable sources and so questions of what to include become fairly subtle questions of weight and editorial judgement on which editors can legitimately disagree without necessarily implying behavioural problems. I tend to think that Icewhiz has not made the case for sanctions here, and we should be wary of effectively silencing one side of a valid disagreement with sanctions. But it needs looking into further. GoldenRing (talk) 10:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, with respect to the main request, I lean towards dismissing it with no action because I'm not able to untangle it from the content dispute from which it stems. The request itself is phrased as a content dispute, in terms of complaining about certain content edits or sources, but not making clear how these violate any applicable conduct policies. I'm not saying there aren't any conduct problems here - there may well be - but they would need to be much better presented. Sandstein 12:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note, on further review, it does seem that point 6 is valid - if Tatzref's text is not plagiarised from Paul, there are a lot of phrases that are co-incidentally the same. Icewhiz is right, Diannaa's input on the question of copying citation lists would be useful. GoldenRing (talk) 12:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Copying lists is okay, unless there's a creative aspect or a value judgement. Subjective lists should not be copied verbatim. Lists such as Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time or Forbes list of The World's 100 Most Powerful Women are examples of subjective lists that it's not okay to copy in their entirety. What this source is saying is that a copied citation list can be used as a clue that the prose in the document is also copied. This source says it's improper to copy a citation list, but if you read the accompanying prose, what they are saying is that it's lazy and wrong. It might be considered plagiarism, if the list is selective and a lot of thought has been put into it. This would be difficult to prove. — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Becase there does not seem to be interest among admins in sanctioning Tatzref, I'm closing this thread with no action, but without prejudice, i.e., an admin who believes that action is warranted can still take it. Personally, the matter is too complicated and too much tied to content disputes for me to feel comfortable taking action; AE is beetter suited to relatively straightforward cases of misconduct. As regards my sanction of Volunteer Marek, I note that there is disagreement with it, but the proper venue to resolve it would be an appeal by Volunteer Marek. Sandstein 07:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: If, as appears obvious, you disagree with Sandstein's enforcement action, you may file an appeal on this AE page and it will be reviewed by other admins. Purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion, and not out of a desire to create more bureaucracy or "paperwork," I think that discussion needs to happen in a new AE appeal thread rather than this one. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean you don't think other uninvolved admins ought to opine about VM's topic ban here, Newyorkbrad? I don't entirely agree. I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded. Brad, you're in essence asking VM to write up a whole thing, "purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion", and I don't think that's entirely fair. I know most people aren't as slow writers as I am, but for me it would take something like half a day to write up a persuasive appeal in a proper way, with diffs and so on. I think Sandstein should withdraw the ban before we close here. Why would that lead to "confusion"? Bishonen | talk21:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
@Bishonen: Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none, but I am pessimistic that he will do so. If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine. It was unjustified, and at a minimum was substantially overbroad, and if this is the right place I vote to reverse it. I can’t imagine an appeal from it would take long to write, either. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
