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October 23

Mandarin in the Onion

There is an article today in The Onion that has a passage written in Chinese, but it's an image so I can't just drop the copypasta into Google Translate. Is there anybody here that can translate it? Link. Thanks —Akrabbim^talk 03:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to be able to cut-and paste the following text, though I don't know what it means (other than that 中国 is "China", of course): AnonMoos (talk) 07:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

中国的领导我毫不含糊地向你们肯定当我做了总统我定会确保中国遵守国际贸易规则你们国家长久以来用操纵汇率让你们自己的制造业受益打击我们美国的制造业这是不公平的我的政府不会接受中国这样的行为当我进白宫的第天我就会把中国列入率操纵国这是对你们的警告

I didn't read the article, so not sure of the context, I am guessing it's meant to be Romney's "true" message to the Chinese government? In any case, my translation, punctuation (or lack thereof) exactly as per your text:

"Chinese leaders, I without any ambiguity whatsoever confirm to you, when I become President I will ensure China obeys international trade rules. Your country for a long time used exchange rate manipulation to benefit your own manufacutring industry, and suppress we America's manufacturing industry, this is unfair! My government will not accept such conduct by China. On the first day when I enter the White House I will list China as an 'exchange rate manipulating country'. This is a warning to you."

--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Ed) - I did click into the link and have amended the above in light of the punctuation on that page which did not carry through with your paste. They seem to have used the English full stop (.) but I assume they meant the Chinese equivalent (。) --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I were going

Resolved

– Thanks, everyone! Gabbe (talk) 11:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following has bugged me for years: In the Simpsons episode "Bart on the Road", Bart is planning a road trip, and in order to get away he lies and says that he's going to a "National Grammar Rodeo" in Canada. Upon hearing this, Marge says "The National Grammar Rodeo? I wish I were going. Oh wait, wait – I mean, I wish I was going. Is that right, Bart?"

Well, which is it? "I wish I were going" or "I wish I was going"? Gabbe (talk) 11:01, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please see #Were / was?, four questions above this. --ColinFine (talk) 11:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, "I wish I were going" because it's subjunctive? Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More like "I wish I were going" because she isn't. Bielle (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The simple test is, can you add (the appropriate equivalent of) "but I'm not"? If sou, use were, it's subjunctive. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But as was pointed out up there, plenty of English speakers use the "I were" construction rarely or never. --ColinFine (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I even know a guy who never brushes his teeth. μηδείς (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The joke is that she incorrectly corrects herself. There is another episode where someone says "I saw her, that is to say I seen her". Adam Bishop (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's Lenny (Simpsons) who says it, and the phenomenon is hypercorrection (LOL). μηδείς (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ehum, actually it's the gravedigger in "Mother Simpson"... Gabbe (talk) 09:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's Lenny's voice. μηδείς (talk) 02:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

French translation: Eteroa

I am using google translate to understand a book I am reading. There is a passage that I can't seem to understand with google translate. " En ce temps-là, le roi Paa a Teuruarii III, devenu vieux, pensait à rentrer chez lui, dans sa terre natale de Huahine. Et quand se présenta un navire, il le prit et s'en alla à Huahine. Peu de temps après son arrivée sur sa terre natale, la mort le prit. " which according to google translate is "In that time, the king was Paa Teuruarii III, grown old, believed him home in his native Huahine. And when a ship appeared, he took it and went to Huahine. Shortly after his arrival in his homeland, death took him." What does the author mean exactly when he said "believed him home in his native Huahine"?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"In that time, King Paa a Teuruarii III, grown old, was thinking of returning home to his native land of Huahine." The rest of the translation is correct. Lesgles (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Google is simply wrong here: rentrer means "go home" it can't mean "be at home". --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also "C'est durant leur règne à eux deux que fut changée la loi établissant la peine de mort, Va'a Tai 'Aru, en un bannissement sur la petite île de Maria, et non en un bannissement en mer."/ "It was during their reign between them that was changed the law establishing the death penalty, Va'a Tai Aru, a ban on the small island of Maria, not a ban at sea " doesn't make sense to me. Did they change the law to include a death penalty, a exile to the island of Maria and not a exile to sea or did they changed the law that established the death penalty (ie. abolished it) and made crime punishable by exile instead? What exactly does the "not a ban at sea" part even mean? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"It was during their joint reign that the law establishing the death penalty, Va'a Tai 'Aru, was changed to a banishment on the small island of Maria, and not to a banishment at sea." My guess is that the author is using "banishment/exile at/in the sea" figuratively to refer to the death penalty, which perhaps involved drowning at sea. Lesgles (talk) 20:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ban used to mean "banishment" in English, but they have since diverged; but apparently bannissement covers both. --ColinFine (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

volume, autrefois

Can you turn up the volume of the file File:Fr-Normandie-Marseille.ogg please ? Fête (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Such requests should be made at the Help Desk, not here. μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(1) Download audacity from here. Works on Windows, Linux, Mac. (2) Select "Effect" | "Normalize. (3) Save as .ogg. (4) For the benefit of fellow wikipedians, upload the improved file. If you need a tutorial, search for audacity normalize volume on Youtube, or RTFM. If you run into problems, ask for help at the computing reference desk, WP:RD/C. --NorwegianBlue^talk 19:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of -ing

Why does Wiktionary say that -ing is pronounced -ɪŋ? I've always pronounced it -iŋ. --168.7.230.175 (talk) 00:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's ood. Are you from somewhere other than Texas? μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ood? I don't know nuffink about that. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ood? We have an article... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to have a lot of ood questions that geolocate to Rice University. As for /iŋ/, I find /in/ and /im/ require no especial effort, but /iŋ/ is oodly hard to say. μηδείς (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually from Missouri. I'm sure that I'm saying /iŋ/ rather than /ɪŋ/ because I can say /ɪŋ/ and it sounds and feels very different from /iŋ/. --128.42.218.93 (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, you're saying that the words "bing" and "bean" have the same vowel sound in your dialect? Interesting.--Jayron32 05:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I read it that he pronounces "bing" and "being" differently, as I think most people do, but the IPA is suggesting they'd be pronounced the same. I agree that the IPA seems to be in error. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're both right. I pronounce "bing" as [biŋ], "bean" as [bin], and "being" as [bijiŋ]. --168.7.238.140 (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Wouldn't the former be pronounced (via IPA) /bɪŋ/ and the latter /biːɪŋ/? I don't think IPA would make it hard to distinguish between the two. --Jayron32 05:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's the IP's only entry so far, but I wonder if he pronounces his home state "Missour-ee" or "Missour-uh". There's a significant population using each pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but that's a vowel reduction/schwa issue, which is something different entirely (like the difference between pronouncing "the" as "THUH" or "THEE") --Jayron32 05:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If "ɪŋ" is intended to rhyme with "eeng", that's not correct, except maybe in some parts of the south. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[iŋ], or "eeng", is common in California English. Lesgles (talk) 03:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have to see a good ref or hear a good clip before I believe this. I have never heard it. And/i/ has an offglide which I find impossible to imagine as an actual [i^jŋ]. μηδείς (talk) 03:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one reference with some short clips; here is a more in-depth study, which considers only Southern Californian. Lesgles (talk) 05:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that certainly is theenk. I'd still like to hear -eeng for the participle though. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the sound of "i" in the English suffix "ing" to be a falling diphthong comprising a near-close near-front unrounded vowel [ɪ] followed by a close front unrounded vowel [i].

—Wavelength (talk) 03:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the most common accent to apply to -ing is to drop the g: "Walkin' the walk and talkin' the talk". StuRat (talk) 04:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and it's pronounced walk-in, not walk-een, expect maybe in some isolated regions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Walk-een" etc. is more common before a pause. I've heard that kind of pronunciation in lists, e.g. "I like hike-een, swim-een, horseback ride-een … lots of stuff." I've heard Tim Allen pronounce "-ing" this way, for example.--Cam (talk) 12:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but having looked at the wiktionary page wikt:-ing, it is significant that the transcription is /ɪŋ/, note virgules. So I suspect whoever the linguist was who made this transcription meant to convey that the underlying phoneme, s/he believed, is /ɪ/, to be realized according to however a speaker's dialect realizes /ɪ/ in such a context. In other words, you are all correct. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 04:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If that miniature capital "I" refers to a normal short "i" rather than a long "e" sound, that would work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

/ɪ/ is the vowel in strip. /i/ is the vowel in Streep (as in I would not be keen to see Meryl Streep strip.). I'm not sure what vowel length has to do with anything. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 22:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This nomenclature may be before your time: "Long" vowels are pronounced like their names, while "short" vowels are not. Examples: make vs. mack, me vs. met, bike vs. Bic, go vs. got, duke vs. duck. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, I do vaguely remember being taught something like that in elementary school! Good times :) I suppose I was "made to forget" when I took linguistics - in linguistics a long vowel is just a vowel that is held (e.g., the e in bet=short, bed=long), so while the vast majority of occurrences of /i/ in English are realized as [iː] (the colon denotes the lengthening), the vowel in -ing clearly is not, which was the source of my confusion. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 02:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for that peculiar nomenclature of English vowels, of course, is that it refers to the lengths of vowels before the Great Vowel Shift. —Tamfang (talk) 04:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a source for that?(Not that I really doubt it.) In any case, traditionally (RP/GenAm) all the "short vowels" are short, and the long vowels diphthongs. μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

-iŋg (a nasal "ee" followed by a clearly pronounced hard "g') is the common pronuciation used in words of English origin in Polish. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, when I say "bing", I use a vowel that is neither the vowel of "bin" nor the vowel of "bean", but one that's about halfway between them. Since /i/ and /ɪ/ don't contrast before /ŋ/, it doesn't really matter which phoneme you assign the sound to. Angr (talk) 18:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 24

Mo Yan translation question

In "葛浩文谈中国文学." Nanfang Weekly. March 26, 2008. It seems like the translator of Mo Yan said that he edited Mo Yan's works. What do the sentences say exactly? (The content is toward the end) Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing you mean this paragraph "相反的例子是莫言。我们合作得好，原因在于根本不用“合作”。他总这样说：“外文我不懂，我把书交给你翻译，这就是你的书了，你做主吧，想怎么弄就怎么弄。”其实，他的小说里多有重复的地方，出版社经常跟我说，要删掉，我们不能让美国读者以为这是个不懂得写作的人写的书。如果人们看到小说内容被删节，那往往是编辑、出版商为考虑西方读者阅读趣味做出的决定，不是译者删的。"

My translation: "The contrary example is Mo Yan. We co-operated well, the reason being there was no need to "co-operate". He always asid: "I don't know foreign languages. I give the book to you to translate, it is your book, you decide, do whatever you want to do." In fact, there are many repetitive parts in his novels. The publishers often tell me, these must be deleted, we cannot let American readers think this is a book written by someone who does not know how to write. So if people see that parts of the novel have been removed, this is a decision made by the publishers considering the reading tastes of Western readers - it was not the translator's deletion." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that's it! Thanks! In the meantime, "五年前，经济型酒店强势崛起之时，黄德满曾一度热衷其商业模式并成为追随者，创立了“三好”经济型酒店。但经过五年的实践，黄德满最终将公司锁定在中档市场。" is saying something like "five years ago, budget hotels were becoming lucrative so Vienna Hotel decided to get into the business, but after five years they are changing to the mid-market", correct? - Also this one says that the the China Hotel Starlight Awards Lifetime Achievement Award (中国酒店业星光奖终身成就奖) was awarded to Huang. What else does it say about the award? WhisperToMe (talk) 13:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tradition criticism

What are the features of tradition criticism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.245.6.103 (talk) 15:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added a header to help you find your question when you return to this page. But I am afraid I don't understand the question. Can you ask it again using different words? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your question either. Do our articles on tradition and criticism help you?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps by "traditional" you mean the original meaning of "criticism", which was a positive, negative, or mixed review of something. However, it has recently come to mean exclusively negative. StuRat (talk) 19:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Tradition criticism" links to Biblical Tradition history... AnonMoos (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 25

hiver

You hear [ivɛːʁ] or [ivaɛ̯ʁ] in the file Media:Fr-hiver-fr CA.ogg ? Fête (talk) 20:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hear the latter (or something more like the latter). You? —Tamfang (talk) 04:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of an R-coloured vowel, I hear a /ʁ/ "coloured" with /a/ in the .ogg file. Would be the French of the Académie française as /ivɛʁ/ since there is no short and long vowel differentiation. --Shirt58 (talk) 12:00, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assonance

I'm kind of confused on this. I know it is the repetition of vowel sounds but does it count if the repetitions are two different vowel sounds? Example: Is "later light" an example of assonance? There are two different vowel sounds in it. A and I. My teacher told me it is but I don't understand.184.97.240.247 (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your teacher probably meant to say ~~consonance~~ instead of assonance. - Lindert (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You probably meant to link to Literary consonance instead of consonance, which links to an article about music theory. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, thanks. - Lindert (talk) 20:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yea right! Thanks!184.97.240.247 (talk) 21:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

V & W

I have been teaching in Hungary for a few months, and I have noticed that many people, when speaking English, pronounce 'v' as 'w', and 'w' as 'v', with very few exceptions. This seems to happen mainly with adult speakers - the kids at my primary school have near-perfect English accents (and some even speak in Scouse!). I knew a few Scandinavians who also did this. Is this a known phenomenon? I cannot think of a reason for this, as 'w' is absent from all of these languages. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed this with native German-speakers who say "v" instead of "w" ("Vot's ze matter vith you?"), as the German "w" is pronounced like the English "v" (and there is no labio-velar approximant in German phonology). And sometimes I hear Germans who are obviously somehow aware of this pitfall hypercorrecting their speech and saying things like "wague" instead of "vague". Our bit on non-native_pronunciations_of_English#Hungarian partly ascribes it to hypercorrection too. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's the word I was looking for - hypercorrection! Like my own dialect of English drops the initial 'h' for every word which has it, but uses 'haitch' instead of 'aitch' for the name of the letter 'H'. Thanks. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are they actually swapping perfectly formed v's and w's, or are they pronouncing an intermediate β sound for both, which sounds too close to w for v, and too close to v for w? μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My partner spent his first 22 years in Sri Lanka. He's always spoken (SL) English as well as Sinhalese; his mother was even an English teacher. He is very prone to pronouncing initial v as w, and so do most of his family and friends from there that I've met. He says "wiolence" and "wiolin" for violence and violin, etc. He's less prone to saying v where w is required (it's never "vicket" for wicket, for example; but I'm sure it's happened). These things bother me much less than the weird stress patterns he uses, like saying "AH-mrka" for America (there are schwas in the latter syllables but they're so short as to almost vanish); and pronouncing "airport" as "yah-port" when he does not generally pronounce air as "yah"; and always referring to New Year's Eve as "thirty first night". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you're not hearing /ʋ/ in place of both /v/ and /w/? When you expect /v/ it sounds like /w/ (relative to what you're expecting), and vice versa. —Tamfang (talk) 20:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have actually talked about it with one of my Hungarian colleagues and he acknowledges that he consistently pronounces 'v' as 'w' and 'w' as 'v', and says it's because of German, for some reason. And he still does it. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I haven't noticed this phenomenon, but then I'm not really good in English pronunciation. I for one often pronounce /v/ for the letter “w”, but I don't think I ever do it the other way. – b_jonas 17:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm wait. Could you have heared words like “over”, where if you pronounce the /v/ weakly enough the previous diphtong could make it sound like you tried a /w/? – b_jonas 18:03, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tangent

This question puts me in mind of Sam Weller and other lower-class (Cockney? I don't see any mention of it in our Cockney article) characters in 19th-century British fiction who also interchange v′s and w′s—Sam pronounces (and writes) his boss's name as "Pickvick" while saying "wery" for "very", for instance. Are there any current British dialects where this happens? Deor (talk) 13:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

John Wells’s phonetic blog says it "is utterly unknown in Cockney today" but "In present-day English such occasional interchange of the two consonants has been reported from parts of the Caribbean, particularly the Bahamas". He references to Accents of English by John C. Wells (same person as the blogger?). Our article on Bahamian English mentions "poor distinction between the [v] and [w] sounds in Bahamian English. The contrast is often neutralized or merged into [v], [b] or [β], so village sounds like [wɪlɪdʒ], [vɪlɪdʒ] or [βɪlɪdʒ]. This also happens in the Vincentian, Bermudian and other Caribbean Englishes." ---Sluzzelin talk 14:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

At the time Dickens was writing, the East End of London was home to many Jewish and Eastern European immigrants, and when I studied Dickens a long time ago, my lecturer told me that the affectation Dickens portrayed here was an attempt to replicate the effect all this immigration had on the Cockney accent. I have no ideas as to whether this is true, but as the lecturer was Howard Jacobson I tend to believe him. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's correct. In my part of London (which would have been rural Essex in Dickens's time), there's an area called Whipps Cross which was originally Phyppys Crosse (1517), the change in the initial consonant being a product of the local accent. There was a recent discussion here about this issue; a source I found then suggests that the "v" (or "f") and "w" switch was already obsolete when Dickens wrote it down, but was a well known Cockney stereotype. Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In New Zealand, isn't wh (in Maori names) pronounced f? —Tamfang (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That sound in the Maori language is the voiceless bilabial fricative signified by ɸ in the IPA. It is like an eff pronounced with the two lips, rather than the upper lip and the lower incisors. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you perhaps mean the lower lip and the upper incisors? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

D'oh! μηδείς (talk) 16:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So a historical characterisation of that is that when Maori was first written in Roman script, they decided to use "wh" to write that non-English sound. Some New Zealanders approximate the sound with an English /f/, but it is only incidentally true that /f/ is written "wh". The point is that this is a purely orthographic matter, and has no connection with the phenomena being discussed above. --ColinFine (talk) 09:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"No connection" meaning that the choice of «wh» to write /ɸ/ was not motivated by any fancied resemblance to the (now marginal) English phoneme /ʍ/? Okay. —Tamfang (talk) 20:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the sounds ʍ (Voiceless labio-velar approximant) and ɸ (voiceless bilabial fricative) are not that far apart. The symbolism is hardly baseless. μηδείς (talk) 21:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The phonemena are not the phenomena. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC) [reply]

The question is not asking if people actually do this. It is asking what it is called. The only term I've heard is "lallation." However, I believe that is only for swapping R and L sounds, not W and V. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 14:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese reading question

For A.mart: in 遠百企業股份有限公司 = Yuan?bǎi qǐyè gǔfènyǒuxiàngōngsī - Is "Yuan" read as "yuǎn" or "yuàn"?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yuán. Fête (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. "Yuán" for "遠" doesn't appear in the dictionary at http://www.mdbg.net/ that I use for Chinese characters. The only choices it gives are "yuǎn" and "yuàn" WhisperToMe (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tone sandhi, 2 adjoining 3rd tone will result in the first being modified to a second tone, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_sandhi#Mandarin_Chinese — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.70.114.87 (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, ok. Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Uighur and Chinese help

What is the Uighur and Chinese seen in the following images?

File:Khotan-ciber-d01.jpg (I need the Uighur of the main sign. the Chinese I have of the main sign is "九大行星网吧", but it would be nice to have Chinese and Uighur of the smaller signs too)
File:Yining.jpg (the Chinese is 胜利南路 so I only need the Uighur)

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the smaller gold sign is the usual warning against minors attempting to access an internet bar: 未成年人，禁止入內 (minors are prohibited from entering). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.70.114.87 (talk) 21:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I added that to the annotation WhisperToMe (talk) 22:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first sign has already said it itself:
توققۇز پىلانت تورخانىسى toqquz pilant torxanisi "Nine Planets" internet café
The second (smaller below) ones are more difficult. Although they are not entirely unreadable but only a native can easily recognize from this picture what they say.
The last picture has too low quality that it is practically impossible to see anything.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However the white upper small sign says
ئاگاھلاندۇرۇش agahlandurush "warning"--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A note about your description: the "linux style penguin" is actually the QQ penguin. I've edited the English part of the description, but don't know what to change the Spanish to. 59.108.42.46 (talk) 03:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The description was originally written by the uploader, I think. But I trimmed it down a little. The English name of the cafe seems to be "Toqquz Pilant Internet" - I just used "pinguino de QQ" in Spanish WhisperToMe (talk) 05:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For "Warning" in the context of it being an interjection, would "警报" be a good Chinese translation? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The "p" in "pilant" seems to be a regular Arabic ba to me. --Soman (talk) 07:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the sign or in the text? Uighur is a language spoken in Hotan, but I do not believe Arabic is spoken much there except maybe in religious services. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 26

German "Zart oder hart" in other languages

The rhyming German words zart (gentle, tender et al.) and hart (hard, tough et al.) are often used as a pair to describe different styles of having sex ("Do you want it zart or hart?"). Are there similar expressions in other languages, especially in English, and preferably rhyming? --KnightMove (talk) 05:29, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A similar English pairing uses alliteration instead of rhyming "Naughty or Nice". You could ask "Do you want it naughty or nice" and it would (idiomatically) have the same meaning and effect of the German phrase. --Jayron32 05:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, as a German I have never heard someone in real life talk about having "zart" sex. AFAIK, the pair zart/hart is almost exclusively used in the BDSM-scene. Lectonar (talk) 08:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think "zärtlich" or "lieb" are used, at least where I live. Lectonar (talk) 08:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Simple Google search proves the expression not to be restricted to the BDSM scene. --KnightMove (talk) 06:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What's more, it's definitely not restricted only to sex: "Die Harte und der Zarte" --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 22:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Cantonese transliteration

Hi all,
Currently looking at 陸輝, who appears to a senior pastor at Bethel Bible Seminary in Hong Kong and an awardee of degrees in Divinity from the London campus of Westminster Theological Seminary. Could look up refs in English, but have no clue what transliteration to look for. The predominant Chinese in HK, to the best of my knowledge, is Cantonese. My head a splode trying to look up the Barnett–Chao, Yale, Jyutping and so on. Your thoughts and advice?
--Shirt58 (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect you are looking for Luk Fai. See also this citation. Marco polo (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pharyngeal stops

Why are pharyngeal stops marked as "impossible" in our {{IPA consonant chart}}? The voiceless one was previously marked as possible. (And what about voiced epiglottal stops?) Double sharp (talk) 11:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Impossible sounds too definite, people can rise to the challenge and make all sorts of weird sounds. Perhaps "not occurring in any known language" would be better. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then shouldn't the palatal trill be grey as well? I don't think it occurs in any known language, and, while probably not impossible, it seems very difficult. Double sharp (talk) 12:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I conducted my own research (i.e. attempted to produce a pharyngeal stop). What I came up with was not so much a speech sound as a gagging noise/sensation. If most people would have the same results if the attempted such a sound, that would explain why there is no (phonemic) pharyngeal stop in any known language. szyslak (t) 14:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another issue is that pharyngeal stops might be difficult for listeners to distinguish from glottal stops, which are easier to produce. That could explain why they don't occur. Marco polo (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How would you describe cough and sneeze sounds phonetically?

I think that the cough sound is aspirated glottal stop.

Please do the following:

Spell out each sound in English.
Describe phonetic properties of each sound (place and manner of articulation, voiced/voiceless, aspiration, palatalisation, ...)

--183.81.44.75 (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coughs and sneezes are not composed of speech sounds, and so it probably isn't reliably possible to describe them with IPA or other phonetic classifications. You'd do as good to classify farts. --Jayron32 16:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to question one is easy enough - Achoo and Ahem respectively. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In one of Yuenren Chao's books he also compares an aspirated glottal stop ʔʰ to a cough, but it's a very slight cough at best... AnonMoos (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd think you're have to define unique forms of pulmonic airstream to describe them in relation to the diaphragm's actions. So while a normal pulmonic consonant would use, say "smooth breath," coughing would use "spasmed breath." And there would be tons of allophony/free variation, i.e. you can cough through your nose or mouth or both, there can be a rounding of the mouth, different positions of the tongue, etc. Particularly strong sneezes may have nareal friction but may also be entirely oral. And so on. In effect, I'll parrot that it's not possible, or at least not useful, to describe them phonetically. Lsfreak (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The cough article states: "The cough reflex consists of three phases: an inhalation, a forced exhalation against a closed glottis, and a violent release of air from the lungs following opening of the glottis, usually accompanied by a distinctive sound." This description sounds like a strongly aspirated glottal stop. Double sharp (talk) 13:15, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

French treaties translations

Can anybody help write out these two treaties File:Procès-verbal de l'établissement du Protectorat de la France sur l'île Rurutu.jpg and File:Procès-verbal de l'établissement du Protectorat de la France sur l'île Rimatara et dépendances.jpg with the French accents and proper punctuation (Google book plain text just gives me gibberish) and then translate into English?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to work through Wikisource on this one. That project is specifically designed to publish public-domain sources in digital form, and people that work there may be more skilled in reading and digitizing print sources into text online, and you also may be able to find translators that work in the field. --Jayron32 18:30, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a user or a forum/help desk that can help me with that?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Requests_for_assistance or maybe http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium There's also an IRC channel noted there. --Jayron32 23:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've often found even bad OCRs to be better than doing everything myself; they'll get some words exactly correct and most words at least partially correct, so you might find it somewhat easier to start off with the OCR and make a pile of corrections. Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pronounciation of Samo

Could someone please provide the IPA for Samo (with a link to whichever language's IPA chart you're using)? Need it for proper translation of the name for hi:स्लोवाकिया. Thanks and regards--Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that we don't have any experts in Old Frankish, but it's almost certainly something like [saːmo], so सामो, I guess? Lesgles (talk) 16:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 27

Sign at a Greek Orthodox church in the USA

If you go to this church and look at one of its signs up close (the one at the left edge of the front of the building in this picture, just to the right of the utility pole in the middle of the image), you'll see an unusual logo: ChiRho surrounded by the letters "ΤΟ ΔΕΡΗΜΑΚΥΡΙΟΥΜΕΝΕΙΕΙΣΤΟΝΑΙΩΝΑ". What does this mean? I assume that there are more spaces between words than I was able to notice (I'm looking at a photo of the sign that I took from three feet away), since Google returns no results for ΔΕΡΗΜΑΚΥΡΙΟΥΜΕΝΕΙΕΙΣΤΟΝΑΙΩΝΑ; it would be an absurdly long word anyway; and Google Translate says that its English translation is "ΔΕΡΗΜΑΚΥΡΙΟΥΜΕΝΕΙΕΙΣΤΟΝΑΙΩΝΑ" also. Nyttend (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is "τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα Κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα", "but the word of the Lord endures forever" (1 Peter 1:25). Lesgles (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Re-creating CJK characters

In a question above, someone posted a link to some Chinese text that was displayed as an image. A responder was able to copy and paste the text so it could be displayed here. How was this done? On occasion, I see something written in a CJK language, and I want to be able to copy it here, but I do not know how to re-create the characters. (I can sketch or photograph them and post an image, but how can I actually input the text if I don't know what it says?) → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 01:13, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The image in the Onion article had "alt" text (though I had to use a slightly indirect method of getting at it, which apparently nuked the punctuation). If there's no such pre-made text transcription provided, then you're pretty much out of luck. AnonMoos (talk) 05:40, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The other ways are: (1) use some sort of OCR software, (2) input the characters by drawing them, (3) look up the characters by their radicals. Lesgles (talk) 07:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

would usage3

->Hi! My doubt is on “if only+would “ structure.
->Can we replace “wish+would “with “ if only+would” ?
->How can I replace wish+would in below sentences with if only +would?
1)I wish he would write more often.
2)I wish he would wear a coat.
3)I wish they would change menu.
->What is the difference in meaning of sentences with “wish+would” and sentences with “if only+would”.
Can you give explanation with examples?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:15, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"If only they changed their menu, they would get more customers" doesn't necessarily mean you want them to do so (you could be a competitor critiquing them), versus "I wish they would change their menu; they would get more customers." Clarityfiend (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The word "only" adds a nuance, though. A competitor might say "If they changed their menu, they would get more customers". Adding the word "only" means the speaker wants this change to be actually implemented. The level of desire may be only slight, but it's still there. Or, if you don't like the word "desire", we could say that they care about it, to some degree. Competitors care what the other players are doing, but are probably happiest when their opponents are engaging in what they see as the opposite of good business practice. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:37, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To me, if only means, roughly I really, really wish; i.e. it is a stronger wish than just I wish· --ColinFine (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help please! I need your remarks to this short paragraph.

I am preparing a short story for my literature class and I have chosen the cold war to be the center of the plot. This paragraph is only a portion of the narrative. Here it goes:

"Comrade perhaps we should talk as I can smell the burning passion I as well have. We both have soaring desires to defeat the capitalists and leave them with nothing. However it is our misfortune that none of us can do it alone. But with our talents fused together, there shall not be a hindrance prevailing our victory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.86.209 (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you trying to use Google Translate to get your story? I have a hard time believing that the same person who wrote your question could have written such awful prose. Looie496 (talk) 17:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Looie496: the prose quality of the quoted passage is abysmal, whereas the phrasing of your question is clear and effective.

Above and beyond that, you seem to have reproduced several well-known cliches of the era. I don't know if you're old enough to remember the Cold War yourself, but I'm guessing not. All this stuff (in works of fiction) about people calling each other 'comrade' and earnestly boring on about capitalism was terribly hackneyed by the later days of the cold war. People in the Soviet Union did not speak very differently to people elsewhere; if you can't really imagine people you know saying the things your characters are saying, have your characters say something else. I can't imagine anyone in the real world saying the quoted sentences. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Simplify. Don't use so many high-brow adjectives. "Comrade, we must talk. I sense you share my own burning passion--to reduce the capitalists to nothing. Alone, neither of us can achieve this. But if we merge our strengths nothing can prevent our victory." Writing good dialog is very hard. The best books I have read on writing are Ayn Rand's Art of Fiction and Art of Nonfiction. Read the reviews of them at Amazon. They are short books you will want to read in one sitting and reread again for their insights. μηδείς (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure how much formality you want, but "Comrade, let's be reasonable. I can tell you want to defeat the capitalists just as much as I do. But you know neither of us can do it alone. If we work together, however..." is much more readable and natural. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Phrase

Is there such a phrase as something like "charging in without a wig"? Simply south...... wearing fish for just 6 years 17:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Google knows it not. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, I know this one. You mean "to go bald headed; to act impetuously, without restraint". The origin of this rather obsolete saying lies with the Marquess of Granby, who led a charge at the Battle of Warburg in 1760, by, amongst others, the 2nd Queens Regiment of Dragoon Guards; " In a celebrated charge, the Marquess lost his wig, giving rise to the expression 'going at it bald-headed'." I couldn't find much current use of the phrase on the web, but did find Sunday Times, Perth WA: 14 January 1940 - "They Will Go Bald-Headed For the Enemy". Alansplodge (talk) 18:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Korean help

The file description of File:Border stone china-corea.jpg is "Inscription stone marking the border of China and North Korea in Jilin" - How is it translated in Korean? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 19:28, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It says "Jung guk to mun pyeon kyeong". It means the same as the Chinese - both mean "China Tumen Border". The 'to mun' in Korean is the same as the Chinese 'tumen' which refers to the Tumen River, which marks only a part of the border. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Jung guk to mun pyeon kyeong" - That is Revised Romanization, right? What is the McCune Reischauer? Also, what is the file description ("Inscription stone marking the border of China and North Korea in Jilin") in Korean? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian translation

What is the meaning of the Armenian phrase "Բել դղյակի ձախ ժամն օֆ ազգությանը ցպահանջ չճշտած վնաս էր և փառք" (transliteration: "Bel dġyaki jax žamn òf azzowt'yanë c'pahanǰ čč̣štaç vnas ēr yev p'aṙk' ")? It is used to test Armenian font support, being a pangram, but I can find neither its source nor its meaning. Pokajanje|Talk 22:56, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please shed some light on this? Pokajanje|Talk 19:31, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for input at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Armenia. (I did get some words using google translate, but I don't think it's good practice to display the results here if you know nothing about the language, which I don't. The result wasn't satisfactory in any way anyway). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic help

For Islamic Center of America, what is http://www.icofa.com/templates/ja_orisite/images/logo.png ?
For American Moslem Society (Dearborn Mosque), what is http://www.masjiddearborn.org/templates/ol_crokos/images/logo.png ?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first is "المركز الإسلامي في اميركا " and the second is "الجمعية الإسلامية الامريكية". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:15, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the first one of course Adam means امریکا not امیرکا. --Omidinist (talk) 05:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the correction! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought so too, but the logo says "اميركا". Adam Bishop (talk) 12:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right. It looks strange to me. I had never seen "America" be written with this spelling. I apologize to both of you. --Omidinist (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That is interesting! I didn't know that there were multiple ways to spell "America" in Arabic. Anyway, thank you very much! What I'll do is, if-when somebody on AR creates the article on the Islamic Center of America I will redirect the other name to the original name WhisperToMe (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

America often became amrīkā in Arabic, somewhat patterned after the pre-existing continent name afrīqā "Africa" (in fact, the form amrīqā, which resembles it even more closely, used to be common). The spelling اميركا is listed as a Lebanese or Syrian variant in the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic... -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

No hedgehog takes in the Times

In his book "Symbolic logic", Lewis Carroll presents this syllogism:

No one takes in the Times, unless he is well-educated;
No hedge-hogs can read;
Those who cannot read are not well-educated.

=> No hedge-hog takes in the Times.

I hadn't heard the phrase "take in" the Times, and did a Google search, which only returned references to the Carroll text, false positives, and one true positive from Punch, 1891, here The Google ngram viewer indicates a peak around 1880-1890, but the links to the actual texts in the ngram viewer were not helpful. So my questions are:

What does it mean to "take in" the Times? To subscribe to the Times?
Is Carroll making an implicit reference to the fact that you can teach your dog to fetch the newspaper in the morning?

--NorwegianBlue^talk 09:30, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I always understood it to mean "has the Times delivered". Of course, subscribing to the Times would have the same effect. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to "translate" it to current idiomatic English

Only the well-educated subsribe to The Times.
Hedgehogs cannot read.
Those who cannot read are not well-educated.

=>No hedgehog subscribes to The Times.

There is nothing about teaching a dog to fetch a newspaper. Roger (talk) 10:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both! --NorwegianBlue^talk 11:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard the expression "to take a newspaper", meaning the paper one usually buys and reads. But "to take in a newspaper" is new to me. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My knowledge of the "I take the <name of newspaper>" terminology stems from a classic sketch on the Profumo Affair-era LP "Fool Britannia", made by Peter Sellers, Anthony Newley and Joan Collins. A few excerpts are on youtube, but not the one I'm referring to. The sketch is about someone asking what newspapers Christine Keeler or some other call girl takes, and the answer is "She takes a Mail, a Mirror, several Spectators and as many Times as she can get". It was previously mentioned here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To "take in" an event is a way of saying to observe that event, as with taking in a theatrical performance or a spectator sport. To "take in" a newspaper might mean to read it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To take in is to comprehend. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/comprehend μηδείς (talk) 14:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Medeis: Do you think that that was the intended meaning in the Lewis Carroll quote, and in the Punch page I linked to? --NorwegianBlue^talk 15:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC) Something strange happened when I saved this entry, I wrote "@Medeis" - because there was a reply after Medeis' reply, which mysteriously disappeared when I saved the page. --NorwegianBlue^talk 15:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any sign of it in the edit history. But I have seen edits disappear instead of showing up as edit conflicts. And I have had it happen a few dozen times that when I save an edit the entire section disappears--if you see that happen with a good reason you can assume it was some sort of glitch. I usually catch and correct it but haven't always. μηδείς (talk) 16:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think Bug's argument is correct, and would strengthen it to mean read thoroughly and with understanding. Compare a statement like "I found the experience overwhelming, there was just too much in the movie to take it all in in one viewing." μηδείς (talk) 16:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AS a Brit, I'd understand 'takes in a newspaper' in this context to mean 'has it delivered'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Alansplodge (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, for example, would "takes in milk" mean one gets deliveries from a milkman? Can you provide a link to an example? And do you deny he could also mean reads by the phrase? μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well the ambiguity is one of the beauties of language, but even an illiterate servant can take the paper in when it's delivered, but he can't take the paper in if he can't read it. μηδείς (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Carroll could have written the statement in a deliberately ambiguous way. – b_jonas 17:31, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... The Brits who have responded seem to agree that "taking in the Times" would have meant having it delivered at your home, although there seems to be no disagreement that it would mean comprehending its contents in contemporary English. So I'll go with the former interpretation of the 1897 text. My second question was whether there is an implied pun. Could "Taking in" also be interpreted as "moving something from the outside of your house to the inside of the house"? Roger, who is of Afrikaner and British ancestry, says that "There is nothing [implied] about teaching a dog to fetch a newspaper". Such a pun could have worked in Norwegian, "no dog takes in the Times" could (depending on context, and even then only barely) be interpreted as "no dog moves the newspaper that was delivered at your front door to your breakfast table". Does everyone agree with Roger that there was no pun intended (and therefore that the Hedgehog only is a Carrollean whim, part of his surrealistic style)? --NorwegianBlue^talk 19:45, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're overthinking this. The OED defines take in in this sense as "To subscribe for and receive regularly (a newspaper or periodical)." The first quotation is from 1712: "Their Father having refused to take in the Spectator." The verb without in is used with the same meaning: "To get or procure regularly by payment (something offered to the public, as a periodical, a commodity)"; oldest quotation from 1593: "May the 28 we begun to take milke of Ann Smith for a halfe penneworth of the day." So I don't think there's any implication of the hedgehog fetching a newspaper like a dog; I'm not even sure dogs fetched newspapers back then. Lesgles (talk) 22:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arachis hypogaea

The binomial name of peanut is Arachis hypogaea. I understand "hypogaea", but does anyone know the origin of the genus name, "Arachis"? --NorwegianBlue^talk 11:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I googled [meaning of arachis] and a number of entries came up. It appears the original meaning of the word is uncertain, but that it was used by ancient Greeks in reference to some type of legume. One theory is that it means "without spine", indicating no central support "axis". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:33, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Arachidna" is Greek for some sort of legume (which gives us, through Latin, the French "arachide"). I can imagine "arachidna" having an ultimate root "arachis" but nothing appears in the dictionaries. Maybe it was just invented by someone who imagined the same root. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! --NorwegianBlue^talk 13:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Second-to-last or second-last?

Which one is better to use and why? 117.227.147.195 (talk) 14:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Either's fine colloquially, but they can both be understood differently by different people. See here for a discussion. In formal language penultimate is much better and is unambiguous. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have never seen second-last, and wouldn't understand it, but I have often seen second-to-last or next-to-last. I agree that penultimate is better in principle, but many people don't know what it means. Looie496 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard second-last a few times, but expect second-to-last to outnumber it in instances a good 1000 to 1. "Penultimate" is a small town in Wales. μηδείς (talk) 16:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no difference between second-to-last, second-from-last and others? 117.227.147.195 (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I think there's no difference at all in meaning among second-to-last, second-from-last, and second-last. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I say "second last" and I've heard it plenty of times. I think I hear it more often than "second-to-last". Maybe it's a regional thing (although I've lived in a variety of places in the US). But even if "second-to-last" is more common, I'm quite sure the ratio 1000 to 1 is wildly wrong. A google search for "second last" turns up lots of hits for both of them. Incidentally, the phrase "the theory of the second best" (not the "second-to-best") is analogous. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I meant instances of my hearing it, which is certainly less than a dozen times in my lifetime--not an internet search, which will oversample "second last" with because of such sequences as "he came in second last week" and so forth. I do agree it will be regional. So where are you? (I am in the NYC/Philly area, about to get whacked by Sandy.) μηδείς (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've lived in Buffalo, NY (till age 8 3/4), upstate South Carolina (till age 18), Georgia, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Texas, West Virginia, Missouri, North Carolina, and the US Virgin Islands. Good luck with Sandy. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also I searched Wikipedia for "second-last". I stopped counting when I found 50 legitimate hits. Then I skipped down to around number 500 on the list and they hadn't run out of legitimate hits yet. (Not all are legit hits of course because "second-last" also brings up hits for "second-to-last".) Interestingly, it seemed that virtually all of the hits were for hyphenated "second-last" rather than unhyphenated "second last". Duoduoduo (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In English English, I think we would generally use "second-to" or "second-from-last". "Second-last" sounds a bit odd to my ears, and I wouldn't use it myself. The hyphens are maybe a bit old fashioned, but I use them. On a the Google search mentioned above (on Google.co.uk), the first two UK results for "second last" are from British people on blogs saying that they never use it. The next non-US result is from India. I found a book called The Second-Last Woman in England by Maggie Joel, who seems to be Australian (she lives in Sydney anyway). Alansplodge (talk) 18:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, second last (probably written without a hyphen or dash) is completely normal and standard in Australia. If anyone in my earshot said second to last, that would immediately mark them as from somewhere else, probably North America or Europe. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. This must be one of those rare times when Australian English differs from both British AND American English. As Jack says, "second last" is the only form in local use here. HiLo48 (talk) 22:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that and your barbaric vowels. General American and RP agree on the quality of our vowels except for the trap-bath split (the cot-caught merger and the Northern cities vowel shift being regional barbarisms not considered standard). μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant and gratuitous commentary

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The world thanks God that America has left barbarism far behind. As Georges Clemenceau pithily remarked: America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That pusillanimous WWII-causing frog criticizing us Yanks is rich. Lucky he died in 1929. μηδείς (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be in a particularly caustic mood lately. Even for you. I'm hatting this diversion, which has zero relevance to second last vs. second-to-last. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a case of both usages appearing in the same context. Seems the reviewer's norms overrode the actual title of the book under review. (You need to click "More" to see what I'm on about.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my country, India, I have almost never heard "second-to-last" or "second-from-last", though it still appears in newspapers and magazines. 117.226.128.119 (talk) 10:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, do you say "second-last" in India? μηδείς (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why the Guardian use '...'?

The Guardian is a british newspaper. As I know, British use '...' instead of "...". Why the Guardian use '...'?--維基小霸王 (talk) 15:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a Britisher myself, I consider it somewhat of a myth about us using single quotes for quotations. Maybe it was true in the past, but now we increasingly use double quotes. The Style guides of The Guardian, The Telegraph and The Times confirm this. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:01, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know there is no difference between ".." and '..'. Am I wrong, or is there some specific use of any? 117.227.147.195 (talk) 16:15, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Single quotes are used for quotes within quotes: John said, "I swear judge, he said, 'Go ahead and punch me!' so I did." Single quotes are also used for scare quotes when you are bringing attention to a term without actually quoting a specific utterance. Otherwise double quotes are standard. μηδείς (talk) 16:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've read lots of things from Britain using single quotes, even in recent times (although we may well be in a transition period in that regard). The idea that Single quotes are used for quotes within quotes is standard has been true in the US at least since I was a schoolboy in the 1960s, but things like this differ outside the US.

I've often noticed that on Wikipedia people frequently use italics instead of quote marks, especially in linguistics articles.Duoduoduo (talk) 17:00, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Italics are standardly used in linguistics (and good writing in general) when referring to a word, rather than using it, or, of course, for foreign words and emphasis as usual. Double quotes are then used to indicate meaning. E.g., The word tame is cognate with the Latin domus, "house". These are all styles of course. We are not the French with a language academie and fines for disapproved usage. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The British original of the Harry Potter books use single quote signs for quotations, and it's abundant of quotations as it uses them for dialogue. For nested quotations, single quotes are used outside and double quotes inside, as in ‘Bla “bla” bla’. Those books are very popular outside Britain, so it's no wonder people believe in that myth. (On the plus side, Harry Potter uses en dashes and proper spacing around them, instead of the crazy old-style em dahes that have no spaces around them, and this too occurs frequently in the books.) – b_jonas 18:35, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is a tendency in poorer countries to use only single quotes to save on ink and paper. Unfortunately most British books are translated into American when sold here so we can't see the quaint original style. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the past (i.e. within my memory) there was no difference between British and American quotation styles (double quotes first, then single quotes inside if necessary). I've no idea why some British publishers changed their style. The saving on ink must be marginal. I find it annoying to read this "modern British style" especially when the printers use the same character for an apostrophe! Dbfirs 20:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was kidding.It's actually to do with metrics. μηδείς (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The single quotation marks go back at least to Fowler (1926): "There is no universally accepted distinction between the single form (' . . . ') & the double (" . . . "). The more sensible practice is to regard the single as the normal, & to resort to the double only when, as fairly often happens, an interior quotation is necessary in the middle of a passage that is itself quoted. To reverse this is clearly less reasonable; but, as quotation within quotation is much less common than the simple kind & conspicuousness is desired, the heavy double mark is the favorite. It may be hoped that The man who says 'I shall write to "The Times" tonight' will ultimately prevail over The man who says "I shall write to 'The Times' tonight"." Lesgles (talk) 21:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quote. I'd missed that in my (occasional) reading of Fowler. He was certainly ignored by the publishers of the books I read in my schooldays (and by my teachers), but perhaps more recent publishers (and more recent educators) have followed his advice. I still think he was wrong, but who am I to question the revered Fowler? (btw, I think he would spell favorite as favourite) Dbfirs 22:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, yes, that's a typo (it's under the "stops" entry, by the way). Glancing at some Google books, it seems you're right about the greater frequency of the double quotation marks, but some books did use single marks instead.[1] Lesgles (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's the American reprint by Harper & Brothers. (They retain British spelling except for half "gray"s.) The original of Tess of the D'urbervilles seems to have used double quotes first [2], but I agree that both styles were used. Dbfirs 02:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that I've used wrong experssion above. The Guardian uses double quotes first, while some imported British books I read use single quotes first. Both Chinese Wikipedia and many Chinese websites [3][4][5] says single quotes first is the British style, while double quotes first is the American style.--維基小霸王 (talk) 23:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The British versus American split is not as clear-cut as that. There are house styles in both countries. Some British book publishers and some British newspapers retain the double quotes first rule that I was taught in the UK, but the Chinese websites are correct that many modern British book publishers have adopted the single quotes first convention. Dbfirs 02:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Age when accent is locked in

The page Accent (linguistics)#Development says Accents seem to remain relatively malleable until a person's early twenties, after which a person's accent seems to become more entrenched, followed by a dead link. That's all I can find about it -- in particular, the article Language acquisition apparently says nothing about it. What is the range of ages at which an accent might have become entrenched, so that if the child moves to a different accent region the original accent would be mostly retained? References, please. Thanks. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no exact age, but puberty is the generally accepted period. A google search on "accent puberty" will give you plenty of references to choose among, including our second language. My next door neighbors when I was a child had both immigrated to the US when they were 18, she from Germany, he from Poland. She maintained a strong accent, he spoke entirely unaccented English. Madonna is famous for having developed a British accent in her 40's. I acquired a Mexican accent to my Spanish in my 20's which I lost when I moved to a Dominican dominated area of NYC. It depends on aptitude, environment and effort. μηδείς (talk) 18:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Permit me to clarify -- I'm not talking about second languages, I'm talking about a child moving to a new region where the same language is spoken but with a different accent. And I'm not talking about effort -- I'm talking about what naturally happens with kids. Any references on accent lock-in in that context? Duoduoduo (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. There's not really any distinction between the two phenomena, though. In both cases it's largely a matter of using the allophones of the phonemes (or a close approximation present in your native dialect) rather than the exact phonemes or allophones of the target dialect. It's not a topic on which I have studied, other than the standard comments in basic phonology textbooks. A search of ("regional accent" puberty) at google scholar gets these results, but many are still geared towards second language acquisition. But be assured the phenomenon is the same in both cases. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anecdotally I knew a boy who moved from Boston to the Delaware Valley at the beginning of 8th grade when he was 14 and his younger brother was 12. The younger brother had assimilated his strong Boston accent by the end of the year, but the elder brother, who did finally lose his, still had traces two years later when he began 10th grade. They were both picked on for their accents mercilessly, which would be an obvious reason to change. A friend I met as an adult told me that he had a heavy southern accent when he moved to NY from the deep south to begin college. He too assimilated his accent within about a year due to the mockery he got in college. μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Madonna's Midatlantic accent developed later in life, but who knows how much she fakes it. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 00:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um, "faking" an accent until it comes naturally is how one learns an accent. People who aren't willing to "put on" an accent while learning a foreign language simply do not proceed to fluency. μηδείς (talk) 01:41, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Accents do drift over time. I lived in New England and had a perfectly thick New England accent until 18, and gradually over time it has migrated (after living away from New England) to General American. There are a few oddities from New England English I retained (for example I have retained the /aː/ and /ɒː/ distinction that is peculiar to New England, so that mama and momma have different vowel sounds for me) but other aspects of the language (such as Æ tensing and the Broad A and non-rhoticity) I have lost, and it wasn't through intentional "faking" or "training", its just something that has gradually changed over the years. --Jayron32 02:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Charlize Theron changed her dialect and accent in her 20s. She switched from speaking South African English with an Afrikaans accent to speaking General American English with a California accent. Roger (talk) 09:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For a documented example, Paul from the Up series moved from a sort of Estuary English in early childhood and adolescence to a Broad Australian accent after his emigration at the age of 20. For a more personal example, a member of my family originally spoke with a heavy New Zealand accent, but transitioned to a General Australian accent after his emigration around the age of 30. I personally find I start to integrate elements of other dialects into my own speech after several weeks in a different country—for example, when in the US, I find myself pronouncing the second vowel in "advantage" as /æ/ rather than my native /ɑː/. I also adopt certain speech conventions (e.g., "Do you want to come with?" whilst in the American Mid West). 58.7.94.82 (talk) 09:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again as an anecdote, in my 30s I moved from the Black Country to Barnsley, and a friend of mine coincidentally moved in exactly the opposite direction at the same time. A few years later we met in a pub, and our mutual friends were amazed by the change in our accents: I had adopted broad Yorkshire, while he had taken on a broad Black Country accent. Now I've moved back to the Midlands I've nearly lost the Yorkshire accent but it still comes out sometimes. So I agree with Jayron that accents are not set in stone. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we all change our accents towards those of the people we talk to regularly, but this happens at different speeds for different people. Some, especially older generations, hardly change their accents at all when they move to a new area, whereas younger children usually adopt the accents of their new friends surprisingly quickly. Dbfirs 13:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the replies. The reason I initiated this thread was curiosity about my own case. I moved from Buffalo, NY to upstate South Carolina at the age of 8 3/4. No one made fun of my accent at all, and I picked up essentially nothing from my new surroundings other than "y'all" and "UMbrella". Is entrenchment of accent at that age considered by the literature to be extremely unusual? Duoduoduo (talk) 16:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someone else will search the literature, but I would consider you to be slightly unusual. Perhaps you made a deliberate choice to keep your NY accent or had regular conversations with others who retained the NY accent? Dbfirs 17:01, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Parents can exert an influence, as can neighbors who are recent immigrants to the area themselves. My sister and her husband have educated Delaware Vally accents, but live north of Boston. They don't have the caught-cot merger, nor do Bostoners, but they do differ in distribution, with the caught vowel much more prevalent in Mass. Her children all began speaking with her accent. But as they have encountered other kids, the have adopted their vowels, calling my sister mawm (/mɔm/, for instance, instead of her variant, mahm (/mam/). Indeed, she has forbidden them to say mawm, so they do call her mahm. But they say chawcolate and hawtdawg instead of her chahcolate and hahtdawg, which has two different vowels in our dialect. She finds this cute, so it is tolerated, and it is not consistent. There seems to be a lot of free variation, since many of the people in her upscale neighborhood have moved there from across the country for the jobs. It will be interesting to see if they adopt consistent code-switching as they grow older depending on if they are playing with the locals or the upscale immigrants. μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How to pluralize the last name Edwards?

How should the last name Edwards be pluralized? Is it Edwards', Edwards's or Edwardses? --Jpcase (talk) 19:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edwardses. Lesgles (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick response! --Jpcase (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And the plural possessive would be Edwardses' (example: "The Edwardses' home is beautiful; they're a lucky couple"). This and the singular possessive ("I don't share Edwards' opinion, but he doesn't seem to mind") are the only occasions where an apostrophe would have any place at all. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:03, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Won't it be Edward's? 117.226.128.119 (talk) 10:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. That's the possessive of the given name Edward. We're talking about the surname Edwards (the header called it "last name"). The apostrophe must go after the s (Edwards'). A further s after the apostrophe is optional (Edwards's). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:40, 29 October 2012 (UTC) [reply]

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 125#Possessive apostrophes (section 28; August 2011).

—Wavelength (talk) 20:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Number of people in the UK who can speak French

Hi, apropos of this, the French language article used to say that "French is spoken and understood by 23% of the UK population", which in my opinion is a ludicrous claim. It has now been changed to "According to a 2006 European Commission report, 23 percent of UK residents are able to carry on a conversation in French." I suppose the "according to" disclaimer helps, but I still feel this is true in only such an extremely limited sense of "carry on a conversation" that, despite the supposed "reliable" source, it would be better to delete it. What do people here think? 86.160.221.121 (talk) 20:49, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This Eurobarometer paper does, indeed, state that 23% of UK citizens speak French (as do 20% of Irish people). It also states that 12% of UK residents speak Spanish occasionally. The paper from Nov / Dec 2005 seems to be based on questionnaires / interviews with about 1 000 persons per EU country, regardless of the size of the population. For the UK the population = 47 mio, sample size = 1 321. This should give a confidence interval of 2.2 at 95%. Data were collected by Taylor Nelson Sofres and EOS Gallup Europe. I agree that these numbers seem fishy, but, barring a typo or a skewed sample, they seem vaild. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[edit conflict] That number isn't too unreasonable - unless things have changed since I was young, at least 1 foreign language is studied at school, with probably 75% of UK pupils studying French. (You can probably find the statistics on GCSE passes somewhere...) I would guess that (if I still lived in the UK) I would count as part of the 23%. Personally, I can read French quite easily. When I left school, I could have a conversation, but now I could not (I can understand the gist of spoken French, but not as well as the written). I would suggest changing the sentence to "French is understood by 23% of the UK population". If the EU report gives its methodology, and if it was based on the opinion of the UK resident, rather than an objective test, then "23% of the UK population claim to be able to carry on a conversation in French". Bluap (talk) 22:30, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you say that you could not hold a conversation in French, then by definition you would not count as part of the 23%. More generally, though, it all hinges on what is meant by "carry on a conversation". I studied French at school, and if someone asked me my name in French, I could reply correctly. I could probably ask the way to the station, or order and pay for a coffee in "textbook" French. If a native speaker started talking to me in idiomatic French about some arbitrary subject, I would most likely be totally lost. Does this mean I can "carry on a conversation"? In a highly limited sense maybe, but in a realistic sense no. Since I am absolutely certain that 23% of the UK population do not qualify under the realistic sense of "carry on a conversation", that 23% figure, if it has any basis at all, must be referring to an extremely limited sense, under which probably even I would qualify. On that basis I do not think it is a useful number, and is more misleading than helpful when trying to explain the extent of French-speaking ability in the UK. 86.160.221.121 (talk) 01:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem you are going to run into if you have a mind to change this is that we don't base content on what we suspect to be true or false or even what we feel we know to be certain. We go with what the sources say and report it as faithfully as possible. In this case, that fact is sourced (by a European Commission report, no less) and presenting a contrary view requires a source of its own. In any event, the ref desk is not really an appropriate place for this sort of discussion, aside from to provide new sources if anyone is aware of any. Discussion as to what content is appropriate for inclusion should be kept on the relevant article's talk page. If you feel very passionately about it and can't drum up discussion there, you can eventually pursue a RfC (reuest for comment) but, there or anywhere else on Wikipedia, I can pretty much guarantee that editors will be reiterating my above comments with regard to sourcing. Snow (talk) 08:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I said elsewhere I think, at some point common sense must prevail. It is obvious that 23% of the UK population cannot speak French in any meaningful sense of "speak French". If a source says they can then that source is wrong (or misleading) and should be ignored. While all material in Wikipedia should (in principle) be sourceable, the converse is not necessarily true. Just because something is sourceable does not mean we have to include it, and, moreover, we shouldn't include it if is is clearly incorrect or misleading. 81.159.107.205 (talk) 12:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The survey seems to be quoted elsewhere, so, in the absence of other surveys, we ought to report the findings. I agree that less than 23% of us (here in the UK) can speak fluent French, but probably more than 23% of us have, at some time, held a conversation in simple French as part of an examination. Dbfirs 13:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is the problem with this type of survey, people's expectations are different. I met a Belgian who thought his English was not very good, but his level of comprehension and ability to communicate were very good (he was at a technical course conducted in English!). Similarly I have met English people who think being able to say "Bonjour, parlez vous Anglais" is a "reasonable" level of French! -- Q Chris (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC),[reply]

Agreed, this figure is ludicrous. Those with French parents aside, GCSE French is not enough. What sort of proportion of the population have an A-level in French? That'd be an interesting indicator. Careful, Q Chris: what you wrote is more "Hello, do you speak, Englishman?" than "Hello, do you speak English?"! mg SH 08:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that Wikipedians, as with all people, will vary widely in what they consider factually correct. This is why we take ourselves out of the equation entirely and do not approach content from our own stance on the subject but rather summarize what reliable sources say on the matter, including providing as accurate a representation of the wording as we can get in the synthesis. This does sometimes lead to incomplete or even inaccurate information -- which is one of several reasons why attribution of sources is important for disputable facts, and in this case an editor has already taken notice of your concern and made the source explicit in the text in the article in question. But on the balance this approach makes the information provided in our articles much more neutral and dependable. I don't mean to be dismissive about your viewpoint -- I see what you're getting at -- but honestly you don't stand a chance of getting this content changed unless you can provide significant sources examining the claim in more detail. This way of doing things was not arrived at lightly and we don't stick with it out of obstinate bureaucratic instinct in defiance of good "common sense" appraisals of claims in our content. On the contrary, it's the result of more than a decade of discussion and consensus building, including thousands of community discussions, some of them huge in scope, through which we have arrived at our arguably two core-most policies, WP:Verifiability and WP:Neutrality. Dismissing a claim made by a reliable source (or even evaluating it's semantics) based on your own impressions and no source of your own is "original research" and to be avoided no matter how obvious you feel the flaw is. If your alternative view is well and truly obvious in a sense that is relevant to Wikipedia, it will have at least one source. Anyway, again, the Ref Desk is not the place for this discussion; there are many pages which will concern both the specific content you are looking to change or the policy matters which guide content standards, but the Ref Desk is specifically set aside for other tasks entirely and not the place to forum shop for new opinions on such discussions as this one. Snow (talk) 06:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Don't follow written instructions mindlessly". "If you do what seems sensible, it will usually be right". "Following the rules is less important than using good judgment". [6] 86.160.85.80 (talk) 14:53, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is sometime sensible to avoid fixed rules, but we have to remember that Wikipedia aims to be an encyclopaedia, not a collection of opinions (there are enough of those on the web already). The article Languages of the United Kingdom clarifies the possible interpretations of the 23% figure. Should we add a link to that article? Dbfirs 17:22, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to steer your course of action here so much as I'm just trying to be honest about your chances of success in changing that content and explain why they are so low if you don't have a source to back up your perspective. You have to build consensus for your change regardless and reverting content on the basis of an impressionistic assumption without a valid source just isn't going to fly with the vast, vast majority of your fellow editors. Not that WP:Neutrality and WP:Verifiability are pillar/core content guidelines while the page you referenced (WP:What "Ignore all rules" means) is an essay and does not necessarily reflect community consensus. There is a corresponding pillar policy "Wikipedia does not have firm rules," but the key word there is firm; the community can always change its standards collectively, but as I stated above, this rule is the result of a long, massive, and intense process of discussion and, at present time at least, it's about as certain as anything gets here. And honestly, those standards are there for a reason - to protect the quality of the project. You're thinking about this issue through just the narrow window of this one fact that you are certain is incorrect. But there are many, many other editors who have that feeling every day and some that come here specifically to push those views. Can you imagine what would happen to our articles, especially those on truly contentious matters if we didn't have content guidelines that were generally consistently applied to all edits and editors? Many would be impossible to maintain any kind of consistent quality on if that were the case. We all vary on what we see the facts to be and what we view as important matters, so creating a system based on triviality or "common sense" exceptions is not viable, and we call this perspective original research and try to avoid it no matter how "obvious" the claim may seem to us at the time. In this case, your definition of what qualifies as a real conversation in French is certain to differ from that of others. That is why an editor clearly attributed who was making the original claim in the article. Users are now free to follow that source and explore its veracity if they are so inclined, or to dismiss it or accept it as basically accurate; or understand immediately that it's a complex issue and that the number is going to fluctuate wildly based on how the issue is explored, which I assume is the assessment most users will arrive at. But as an editor (and one with a background in comparative linguistics, mind you) I have a hard time accepting that we should use your impressionistic viewpoint as the standard. Unless you can source it, that is. :) Snow (talk) 22:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 29

would usage-5

Hi ! I am trying to understand would.
I have the information where to use would.but I do not have explanation and examples.so I need your help.
My doudt is on “I wish you would-----------------“ sentence structure.
I wish you would ----------------“is possibly a request form.Here there is no feeling that the person addressed will refuse to perform the request ,but there is a feeling that this person is annoying or disappointing the speaker in some way.”
Can you explain with some examples? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. "I wish you wouldn't x" or "I wish you would stop xing" expresses implied annoyance on the part of the wisher, and "I wish you would x" is somewhat presumptuous and could be rude to a stranger or a superior. You should probably only say it when you are on good terms or have a very obvious good justification for it, as when the person knows they themselves are doing something rude that they should stop. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is this paragraph an example of purple passage?

In line with the past question, I would like to know whether being too purple is the problem of the writing.

Dear friend, perhaps we should talk as I can smell the burning passion I as well have. We both have soaring desires to defeat the communist insurgents and leave them with nothing. However it is our misfortune that neither of us can do it alone. But with our talents fused together, there shall not be a hindrance preventing our victory." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.104.88 (talk) 05:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, too purple, and if I may say so, it doesn't seem to have been drafted by a native speaker. It rather looks like the writer is trying too hard. It also hardly makes sense to start with "perhaps we should talk" then launch into stuff about "burning passion". Like, you have this electrifying energy, so perhaps you should talk. IBE (talk) 07:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I gave you advice on this already here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. μηδείς (talk) 15:28, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your link doesn't work. (It's not bracketed, and the wiki parser thinks the trailing dot is not part of the url.) The correct link is Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph., soon Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 27#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. (Incidentally, if you want to link to a section in a page, you can edit it to add an {{anchor}} with a simple name if you prefer, and then link to that anchor.) – b_jonas 22:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Sandy anxiety, you know. μηδείς (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stay safe. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I am very surprised I didn't even lose power except for a few flickers--but the rest of my family are without power. No major damage or personal injury to anyone I know, but of course NYC is devastated from the surge. This image is shocking, and this one in Queens is not a sight one's seen anytime recently. μηδείς (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Language attitudes in Islam

I know clearly that there is a consensus in mainstream Islam about non-Arabic languages. Simply speaking it is forbidden to pray aloud in non-Arabic and any translations of Quran are treated as corrupted interpretations. Alims only allow fresh converts to say silently prayer in their native language only until one has learned it in Arabic (though it seems this won't take long – namaz usually contains of about 200 words, which can be simply parroted). I googled and read enough to understand their arguments (though I strongly disagree with them). But I do not intend to speak about it.

Only I want to know what are attitudes to non-Arabic prayer, Quran translations and to the religious use of of non-Arabic languages generally in Reformist/Liberal and Quranic Islam. Unfortunately Mr. Google hasn't helped.

P.S. It would be helpful if somebody in the future creates an article "Language policies in religions".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and this is similar to how the Catholic Church, in the middle ages, insisted that Bibles be written in Latin and services held in Latin. This is particularly odd, as most of the books later included in the Bible were written in other languages, such as Aramaic. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not quite like that...the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek (there are a few words of Aramaic in it but no book was written entirely in Aramaic), and then translated into various other languages including Latin. It wasn't necessarily forbidden to translate the Latin Bible into vernacular languages, but vernaculars weren't (or weren't believed to be) sophisticated enough to translate something so profound. There were plenty of authorized translations, but unauthorized vernacular translations were almost always associated with heretical groups (people who thought the church was conspiring to keep everyone stupid, as you seem to believe). See Bible translations in the Middle Ages. For the Qur'an, it's a little different because theologically, the Qur'an is supposed to be "uncreated". It's not simply something that God recited to Muhammad, it's more like the text has eternally existed and was then revealed. It was always in Arabic, so if the text is eternal and uncreated in Arabic, it cannot be properly translated into another language. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way we also have a Quran translations article, and History of the Qur'an talks a bit about it. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

re article proparoxytone

Hi everybody !

The article quotes Joyce's Ulysses : "Stephan Dedalus in James Joyce's Ulysses (novel) uses the term to comment on the time being eleven o'clock, with eleven being a proparoxytone: "Why striking eleven? Proparoxyton. Moment before the next, Lessing says." [1]" Isn't Eleven stressed on the penultimate ? (e'leven). So doesn't that make eleven a paroxytone rather than a proparoxytone? Does that mean Joyce was wrong?

Or did eleven use to have an additional syllable (e'levenØ or e'leØven) that was dropped at some point making it a former paroxytone? Or does the final N count as a mora ?

Any suggestion is welcome, thank you.

--Anne97432 (talk) 09:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No idea on Joyce, but eleven literally means "one left". See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eleven μηδείς (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Stephen, or indeed Joyce, are thinking of pronunciation, they are thinking of time, "Moment before next", he says. Stephen is drunk and being his overly intellectual self, figuratively using the word rather too loosely which he used correctly when churchly sober in Portrait.... Stephen is wrong, Joyce is right to show his wrong. HTH. meltBanana 04:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ID tag, WWII Shanghai ghetto

This item, from the Ghetto Fighters' House artifacts archive, is a metal ID tag pinned on as a brooch, worn by residents of the Shanghai Ghetto, 1943 - 1945 in Japanese-occupied China. What is this character that appears on the red background? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm...I am not good at recognizing calligraphy letter so I could be wrong but it looks like the character "通". For the meaning behind the character, I haven't a clue as I am not really knowledgeable about the history surrounding the Shanghai ghetto. Maybe someone else here could give you more information. SassyLilNugget (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree about the identification of the character. Wikitionary says that its basic meaning is "pass through, common, communicate"; but as a noun in Japanese "authority, expert, connoisseur". I wonder if it means "authorised", or perhaps some sort of pass? --ColinFine (talk) 13:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is looking plausible. Would it have a similar meaning in Chinese, or different? I don't have information on whether the gatekeepers were locals or occupation forces, but in Polish ghettos, for example, German was the prevailing language of administration, with Polish and/or Yiddish added in directives aimed at the population. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that both Chinese and Japanese would recognize the meaning behind this 通 character as it pretty much has the same meanings in both languages. It is one of the few Chinese characters that the meaning did not get completely changed or lost when entering the Japanese writing system. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is probably more in line of being able to "pass through" as a description on the Ghetto Fighters' House website indicates that this ID brooch was checked at the entrance point into the ghetto. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish phrases in retail transactions

In the US, with customers speaking the Mexican dialect of Spanish, how would a retail clerk say in Spanish the following:a)"Here is your change." b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." c)"Would you like debit or credit?" d)"Sign here, please." e) "Would you like a bag?" Thanks. Edison (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Answering without proper diacritics:

a)"Here is your change." (Aqui esta) ...su cambio

b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." ...su recibo (receta is prescription)

c)"Would you like debit or credit?" (Quiere pagar por) debito o creidito?

d)"Sign here, please." Firme aqui, por favor

e) "Would you like a bag? Quiere fundita? or bolsa? Bolsa is literally bag, but you hear fundita, which is slang, in NYC. It might not be understood everywhere.

Per the discussion two below and its rarity on the internet, it looks like fundita will be seen as a Dominican expression, so I would go with bolsa de papel o plastico or bolsita if it is not one of the large ones. Is this for homework, or do you work in a store with Mexican clients? μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to comment below when I saw this thread. If it concerns Mexican listeners, then "bolsa" is the right word to use. "Funda" means "sheath", and I've never heard it used to refer to shopping bags before now — Frankie (talk) 20:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Epatiana a Teuruarii

Can someone help me write the Tahitian pronunciation for Epatiana a Teuruarii (ʻĒpātiana a Teuruariʻi) base on the table of sounds on Tahitian language?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The table of sounds in that article does it for you. There's a one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, so for each letter you can just copy the corresponding sound from the table. Note that if a vowel has a macron (overbar) it is pronounced long and is denoted by the second of the two given pronunciations for that vowel in the table; otherwise the first given pronunciation applies. Also, remember that the apostrophe is a separate letter, the last one in the table. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of fundita as Spanish for Plastic Bag

Can anybody find any source defining and especially giving the etymology of the word fundita used in Spanish in NYC to refer to a disposable plastic shopping bag? This has been surprisingly hard to find, which leads me to think it may be local or slang. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it must be a diminutive of funda, "Cubierta o bolsa de cuero, paño, lienzo u otro material con que se envuelve algo para conservarlo y resguardarlo", which comes from the Latin funda, "sling, moneybag". Lesgles (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I did actually manage to find it used in a blog here by a woman from Seville. Funny thing is that you get images of hair bows if you google it. Wiktionary gives funda as dominican slang for shopping bag--apparently its more an archaism than slang if it comes from Latin. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

About that blog, the author is using "fundita" to refer to a sheath / sleeve where she stores her shopping bags after usage, not to refer to the bags themselves — Frankie (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed she meant a littler bag. How do you know this? (Not that I doubt you at all here.) Personal familiarity with Castillian usage? μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I'm not from Spain and I'm not particularly familiar with Castillian usage. Still, what she's saying is very straightforward: "I have gotten myself five bags, at 0.95 euros, very resistant and larger than the plastic ones. With those five I've managed to carry almost everything for the week. Afterwards you can fold them and keep them comfortably in a mini sheath that comes included" :) — Frankie (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So what is your opinion of the New York/Dominican usage? This bag, about the size to carry a gallon of milk (4 liters) is what is called a fundita. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of it before, but it is normal for local usages to develop, no matter how arbitrary or "incorrect" they might seem to speakers from other regions. Looking at the ref from Wiktionary it has three hits for "funda" [7] but only the second one is about what we're discussing, and no hits for "fundita". The book itself is about Dominican slang, which could be taken as an indication that the term is not common to other Spanish speaking countries. This article does use "fundita" to mean a simple bag, being used to wrap guava fruits. What I'm really curious is how that could've gotten into Spanish slang in NYC, and whether it somehow originates from the Dominican usage — Frankie (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had never heard the term until I moved into a Dominican neighbourhood, where it was used almost exclusively, although they had had no problem with my saying "no quiero bolsa" at the bodega. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense: "bolsa" being the standard word for the object, they would have to be very picky to have a problem with it. Do you know if "fundita" is used by other communities (Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc.)? Otherwise, I think we're looking at a strictly contained phenomenon — Frankie (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The large majority of Spanish speakers in the portions of Upper Manhattan and the Bronx I have lived in are Dominicans who tell outsiders that they are Puerto Rican, por la migra. (Younger Puerto Ricans mostly speak English!) My experience before my mid twenties had been with Puerto Ricans and Mexicans and i had only ever heard bolsa. Fundita is about all I've heard for the last 15-20 years in Mott Haven, Inwood, and University Heights, and this has been almost puro dominicano. μηδείς (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be delimited to Dominican people then. There might be some interesting etymology behind it, but it could just be because sheaths are kind of bag-ish. I know I'll be keeping an eye out for it, now :) — Frankie (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lesgles's source above moneybag seems definitive. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't mean the etymology of the word, but the cultural origin of the Dominican usage (basically what I understand you had asked for in the beginning). The source above is good for the origin of the word "funda", but the connection with "bolsa" is too feeble, and I doubt that that is the reason it became a synonym in the DR. I found some posts about "bolsa" being a slang for "scrotum", so that might play some part in it. But of course I'm just speculating — Frankie (talk) 16:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese stuff

In 北京振远护卫中心 isn't 振远 read as "Zhènyuǎn" or is it "Zhènyuàn" (which is altered due to pronunciation rules, right?)? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The third tone in yuǎn would become a second tone, yuán, before the fourth tone, hù, but only in quick speech. Not in this case, however, as it is the name of an institution, and is more likely to be pronounced clearly. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

October 30

Are there computers that exist in West Africa with a keyboard with any African languages?

Are there computers that exist in West Africa with a keyboard with any African languages? Neptunekh94 (talk) 01:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are hardware keyboards by Nigerian Konyin and by Soligsoft.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why 12:00 noon is 12 p.m.?

--Scoooooorpio（留言） 02:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, technically, it should be 12 m., since the "m" in "p.m." and "a.m." stands for "meridian": i.e., noon. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then how to say 24:00. --Scoooooorpio（留言） 04:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See 12-hour clock#Confusion at noon and midnight. Lesgles (talk) 03:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, it's ultimately arbitrary. If you are going to split up the day in two halves it has to be the one or the other. Second, absolute noon is a point moment of no duration. The time 12:00 lasts on the clock for one minute after that instantaneous point of no duration. Time mnoves through and past noon. There is never any length of time over which it is noon. 12:00 is not noon. It is the minute that begins at noon. 12:00:00 is not noon. It is the second that begins at noon. So PM does make perfect sense. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem stems from starting with 1 rather than the more natural 0. If we started with 0, then midnight would be simultaneously 0 AM of the day that's starting or 12 PM of the day that's ending, and noon would be simultaneously 0 PM and 12 AM. Then things would make sense.

But because we still use the unfortunate one-based convention, we have the conundrum that 12:01 is clearly post meridiem, after noon, so we call it PM. Then it's hard to explain why we would write 12:00 AM and then a minute later 12:01 PM, so when times are given to the minute, 12:00 PM for noon seems to work more smoothly.

On the other hand, when times are given just to the hour, 12 AM for noon makes more sense, because it's an hour after 11 AM.

So the bottom line is -- never write "12 PM" or "12 AM". Never never never never never. But if someone else writes "12 PM" (the heathen), 95% plus of the time, you can count on that meaning "noon". --Trovatore (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're still going to run into the fact that there is no period of time which corresponds to noon. Minutes and seconds are periods of time; line segments of the timeline with varying length. Noon is a point. To specify noon as a point you'd have to say 00:00:00..... with the zeros stretching to infinity. But mere 00:00;00 is not a point, it is a second that lasts a second long. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The repeating zeroes are assumed, just as if I say "the real number 3", it's assumed that I mean three point zero repeating. I don't see what the fact that it's a point has to do with anything. Sure, an arbitrarily short time after noon is PM, but by the same token an arbitrarily short time before noon is AM. There's no clear reason to privilege the former over the latter. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you need to, you can certainly stipulate that by noon you mean the point of time at which 11:59:59 changes over to 12:00:00. But that still doesn't do away with the fact that the clock characters 12:00:00 signify a second that occurs beginning with and lasting for one second after noon. You could even stipulate that by "M" you mean that point in time. Bven with an arbitrarily precise clock there would never be any actual length of time during which it isn't either AM or PM. And obviously there is no sense in which 12:00:00 could be described as before noon. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's just not so that "12:00" means "the minute starting at noon". If you want to account for finite precision and make it a minute, then it would more naturally be the minute where you would round off to noon; that is, from 11:59:30 to 12:00:30. --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting, but then you are defining noon as that minute, rather than defining noon as the point at which the sun is directly overhead. That's putting the measure above the thing being measured. The essence of clocks is to measure periods and intervals and the passage of time. Static instantaneous moments of time are an abstraction. If we stick to the OP's question, we still run into the fact that unless we want arbitrarily to say that that whole minute will be called noon, all of its seconds will either be before or after the point half-way through the sun's course. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic question

The final page of http://yemenia.com/PDF%20Files/issue34/01.pdf has the Arabic for "Yemenia Holidays" - What is the Arabic? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is the same just in Arabic اليمنية العطلات al-yiminiyyat al-ʿuṭlāt (not sure about vowels).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 04:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of Northumbria without h-sound

Do I understand aright that the name of Northumbria is a merger of north and humbria in which the h of humbria has been "swallowed" by the h of north and is now vanished without a trace, neither in pronunciation nor anything else? --KnightMove (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have lived either in or close to the borders of the old Kingdom of Northumbria for almost all my life. I've never seen it spelt other than as above. You hear a variety of pronunciations, including /nɔːˈθʌmbrɪə/, /nɔːˈθʊmbrɪə/ or even /nəˈθʊmbrɪə/, but I've never noticed a /θh/ combination creep in anywhere. - Ka renjc 21:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Osteodontokeratic

The article on osteodontokeratic culture says that the word osteodontokeratic is of mixed Latin and Greek etymology. From what I can tell ὀστέον, ὀδών and κέρας are all valid Ancient Greek words. So what makes this etymology mixed? Is there something particularly Latinate in the way those words are combined? 129.234.53.242 (talk) 20:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's of pure Greek derivation. Somebody made a mistake. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Getting used to S‐O‐V.

When I am trying to understand a language that uses a Subject–object–verb order, and I see fragments such as «yo me lavo» or « je me lave », it feels disjointed or confusing, especially if there exist multiple pronouns in the same fragment. I have an unfortunate tendency to re‐read the fragment as Subject-verb-object so I feel more comfortable, but this isn’t an appropriate method to learn a language. So what I am enquiring is, is there any technique I could use so it feels normal for me to read this order? Thanks in advance. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 21:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]