Talk:Video game programmer

Not a copyvio

This is another article that is not a copyvio. If you feel inclined, please modify, though I doubt anyone will as few people ever modify articles I create (am I the only one interested in this stuff??). —Frecklefoot 19:27, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No. tempshill

Nice article. Incidentally, I removed the note about Carmack's millions because they are due to his being an owner of id, not due to his being a programmer at id. Well, you could argue that he's a millionaire because he's a game programmer, which is clearly true, but the context of the paragraph made it sound like he worked at a 9 to 5 job as a game programmer until he became a millionaire.

Yeah, you're right. I just really wanted to point out that there are millionaire game programmers out there. And id is so successful largely (solely?) due to him. :-) I guess I could've cited Sid Meier as well, but he also part-owned the companies that made him rich.

Thanks for the edits—I hate being the only one to edit articles I create. Now if I could just get someone to modify my Talisman board game articles... :-) —Frecklefoot 20:17, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it's so much due to interest as it is to the fact that your articles are pretty damn good from the start ;)

AI games

I'm thinking of removing "or role-playing games such as Neverwinter Nights" under Artificial Intelligence Programmer. Where's the intelligence in NWN?? Maybe someone knows a replacement?--euyyn 09:18, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've never played it, but wouldn't The Sims be an example of a game where AI is absolutely fundamental to the gameplay? -- Tlotoxl 09:57, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've never played NWN, but I heard that the AI was incredibly advanced in it. You could replace it with whatever CRPG you think is appropriate. I don't think The Sims has really advanced AI--the Sims pretty much wander around and do what they can to raise whatever stat is lowest. However, the latest SimCity games have very advanved AI. I think the best candidate, however, would be Civilization III, which is widely regarded as having some of the best game AI. It's AI is absolutely essential to gameplay. I'll make the change, discuss here if you disagree. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:05, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Civ 3 kicked my ass enough times. ;) I'm on board there! A.I. even in modern games is relatively pathetic compared to the graphics, so Civ 3 is probably about as good as it gets! Davedx

Missing image

The image this article really needs is an image of an actual game programmer... Fredrik | talk 21:33, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ew, who would want to see that?  ;-) I came across a few photos like this a few days ago. If I can dig them up again, I might scan one in and post it. Nice shot of Visual Studio, BTW. With Quake code yet! :-D — Frecklefoot | Talk 23:32, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Might not a picture of programmers at work inside a game studio be a better choice? --Tlotoxl

Well, no one says we can't have both. :-) To clarify, I have some photos of actual game programmers at work in a game development studio. Alas, the pictures are not very interesting: it's just some guys sitting in front of computer monitors typing. Someday I might be able to get a shot of a game programmer in front of an Xbox development setup, but I don't have one right now. The Visual Studio comment was me complimenting Fredrik for the image he added. — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:14, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

We're hopefully getting a PS2 devkit where I work very soon, I'll grab a pic when we get it setup if you want? Davedx

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Game programmer/programming

Vacuum moved this article to Game programming. I suspect that he (she?) saw the discussion on Featured article candidates that argued the article should be called Game programming and then rewritten to reflect the new emphasis. I countered that suggestion saying that the article is more about the occupation and, while it does discuss a bit about the ing, it is more about the job itself. I stated that the article does not address the following questions:

• How does one go about making a game?
• What is a game loop and how is it used?
• How does game programming differ from traditional programming?

Another user, Taxman, agreed with me. Until a consensus has been reached, please refrain from moving the page again. If you feel it should be moved to game programming, please discuss here first. Peace. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:27, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I went ahead and wrote an entirely new article for game programming which borrows no material from this article. I hope that pleases the ones who thought this article should be moved. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:30, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. Fredrik | talk 18:45, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am sure that chapter "Languages and tools" should go to game programming article. I don't see why it is here. Dinno 07:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Game programming already has a "Languages" section. I'll look at merging the content from "Languages and tools" over to there and then removing it from this article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay Programmer

I'm not quite sure about this phrase: 'Since this programmer is something of a "jack of all trades," he is usually paid the least out of all the programming staff and is usually easily replaced. In many cases, the workload of this programmer can be picked up by other members of the programming team, though the work he does is usually appreciated.' Can anyone in the industry back this up? Personally I think someone who can be a decent generalist in this industry is actually quite valuable. Without babbling about holistics and synergy... the 'gameplay programmer' is probably the one guy who will know the entire game inside out and appreciate how everything fits together. I know that's a role I more or less fill at my workplace, and I like to think I'm appreciated for it rather than seen as replacable :) -- Davedx

Well, I wrote that based on my experience in the game industry. :-) In my expereince a "Jack of all Trades" is the master of none. You can edit it based on your own experience. But these guys usually jump into different systems all over the code base, but never master any of them. If s/he does master a few, then he's not a jack of all trades anymore and, ergo, not easily replaced. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:38, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Ahh I see your point - fair enough ;) (Time to learn some hardcore graphics pipeline stuff quick! :P) Davedx

Input Programmer

'A first person shooter such as Quake may need a very complex and low latency input system'

Not quite sure what this sentence means, could it be clarified? Input is by definition low latency, and complex? Mouse and W, A, S, D doesn't seem too complex to me ;) -- Davedx

Input is not by definition low latency. If it were, DirectInput wouldn't exist. If you use DirectInput, you know there are two ways to set it up. One is "action mapping," which can get very complex, but is very powerful. The other way (forget what it is called), is fairly simple to implement, but not suitable for action games, such as FPS's. Without DirectInput, all you have is Windows messaging, which can be too slow for game execution. And if you've done any FPS input programming, you'd know that it can get pretty complex. If you have, it may not seem complex to you, but it is to the average programmer. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:38, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

David Braben

I note from an earlier edit that David Braben was removed from the list of notable game programmers. I am not sure how famous Elite was in the US but in Europe this game was huge and it is the father of all space trading games, groundbreaking for its time in that it was wireframe 3D too. David Braben is a very notable programmer, perhaps not today (although he still makes games) but his name is still very notorious. Freakchild 07:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed him again because he is not all the well-known. Though Elite was a popular game, it wasn't ground-breaking. Sundog had similar features and came out about the same time. Then for several years he didn't do anything all that notable. He can go on the list of programmers however, but he isn't that well-known among today's gamers or "old-school" gamers.

By the way, being "notorious" is usually a bad thing. ;-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It matters not whether he is a household name (although he is much closer to being so than a lot of the others on the list) or wether he is notable for "good" reasons. The fact remains that he is notable. The notirious legal wranglings between him and the co-creator of Elite are notable within the industry. The longievity of the Elite series (a new one out soon apparently) under Braben is notable. He is well known as one of the few developers still managing to maintain an independant studio and he is one of only two games developers (Peter Molyneux being the other) whos articles I have ever seen in the national press or on the BBC's website, or indeed who has been the subject of such mainstream press articles. He is perhaps a candidate for the most notable British games developer of the past 20 years. --JamesTheNumberless 14:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note on this. It's been a long time since I added Mr Braben back in and clearly he has been removed from the list since then. This person is pretty much the father of game development in the United Kingdom. Father is actually quite a good word to use, because there are many people running game top development companies today, even in the United States who would not have got into the field if it was not for Braben's game, Elite. He is known well amongst the game development community and anyone who argues against him not being known amongst old school gamers is clearly not familiar with that topic. Sorry but I also argue that Elite was also very much groundbreaking, not least in the area of rendering 3D wireframes at a high frame rate on a machine of limited performance bandwidth, something that was not repeated for several years afterward. Even the title Sundog used for comparison appears not to have the innovations that Elite had. There is probably no game that has been as groundbreaking or has had as much influence on the UK development scene than an other. The list of notable folk as it stands is largely made up of people who actually aren't well known internationally or otherwise, or are known more for different things other than game development so it is a pity that people continue to remove Mr Braben. I would agree with JamesTheNumberless (see above) in that he is a candidate for the most notable British game developer of the past 20 years. As such I fully believe this distinguished game developer who has made extraordinary contributions should be included in this list. I would like to hear from others about this point, as I believe he should be added back in. Freakchild 05:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've said my piece on this, but, even though I created this article, I'm not the "owner" of it. If two of you feel strongly about this—and no one else is willing to join the discussion here—go ahead and add him.

Looking at the list, it'd be good to see a one-line description of the programmers (i.e. why they are famous), like what is included in game designer. While I don't expect you to do it for every entry, please add it for Braben, so it can get the ball rolling for the other entries. But please remember to keep it short (e.g. David Braben: programmer of the Elite series of computer games). — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I put him in. Freakchild 20:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was David Braben removed? It seems that after people said that he should be on the list the only person arguing against it has gone and removed him...yet again. This is amounting to nothing short of page vandalism and I don't really care if you created the page or not. This is Wikipedia, it's not just your page it's for everyone. You may not know this person but that does not mean his in not notable. Please add him back in. Freakchild 20:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ralph Baer, William Higinbotham

Went ahead and added these guys... but when I think about it, were they actual programmers, or were they just designers? Hmmm...

For that matter, it was on the History_of_computer_and_video_games, but there was a guy named A.S. Douglas as well, and it seems like he was an actual programmer... but no one really knows about him so maybe he shouldn't be on... 07:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed them:

1. Ralph Baer is an inventor, not a game programmer. Even if he were, he is not that well-known for computer games, though his invention was ground-breaking.
2. William Higinbotham created the first computer game, but he is not well-known. He did create one game, but he wasn't a game programmer, he was a physicist. Look at the lead-in for the section: the people on the list have to be household names among gamers. Higinbotham wasn't even that well-known in the early days of video games.

If you dispute my reasons, discuss it here first before putting them back in. Thanks. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This got me looking at the list for the first time, and things I noticed were: Lamothe appears to have academic credentials but not the kind of game programming track record the list expects. Miyamoto started as an artist and then a designer, not a programmer as I recall. Anne Westfall is an important programmer from early 1980's games, but is the only such person on a list that features more recent accomplishments. She feels right there, but there are others from that era whom her presence suggests should be added. A tough issue to handle: several of these programmers are considered special because of their design chops as delivered by their programming; absent the design skills their programming may not have ever impacted the industry. You could also argue that as double-threats they are even more special. What role should this play in the formation of the list? (Note that I'm much better at asking hard questions than answering them!) Coll7 22:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable or Famous

There seems to be a bit of a disagreement here about what constitutes a notable games developer. It would seem to me, by dictionary definition, that one does not have to be famous to be notable under every possible definition of the word. Might the ambiguity here be what is causing disagreement? One may be said to be "notable" on account of their worth, not their status, therefore lack of fame should not be an excluding factor from this list. If something is noteable or noteworthy it is not always widely noted. Looking at it from another perspective, perhaps the section aught to be named differently? Famous games developers? I'm not convinced that there are enough truly "famous" games developers to make this a worthwhile section. Additionally this may cause further problems as fame is demographically subjective. --JamesTheNumberless 14:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed Andre LaMothe from the notable game programmers list. If you search for him on MobyGames, you'll see he hasn't actually been credited on a single game. Also, most game industry professionals consider his writing to be the bottom of the barrel -- it's career suicide as an author to write a book in his series. Gremagor 20:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I saw he lacked MobyGames credits as well. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

2 User:JamesTheNumberless, many game programmers are famous to other game programmers, whether or not the public at large has heard of them. I've know of Danielle Bunten Berry, Sid Meier and John Carmack and most of the others in the list, while the public at large may only know of Meier, and those who have heard of him would be gamers. Most of the people in the list are noted and notable. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

seminal, pivotal

I added a number of game developers, Scott Adams, American McGee, Bill Crowther, Don Woods, and the Miller brothers. All except Crowther and Woods were fulltime game programmers and all were seminal figures in game development. I've not included programmers (including several colleagues) who weren't pivotal, which I think should be the key criteria for this list. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 08:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The developer of Bungie's Marathon Trilogy should be notable, if anyone can identifyer the game designer.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 08:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with most of the people you added, but I won't revert it. While the games they developed might be renowned, the programmers themselves aren't (and I fixed one link that pointed to the wrong person). The list was really just meant for really renowned game programmers, but it has grown to include game designers and programmers who are now forgotten. If it were really to be up to date and accurate, it would probably only include:

• John Carmack
• Richard Garriott
• Sid Meier
• Peter Molyneux (kind of iffy on this one)
• Will Wright

That list leaves off several of my personal favorites, but it'd be the only way to keep the list unbiased. But I'm not in the mood to fight about it. Just make sure the programmers you added are included on the List of video game industry people under Programming. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Freckle, I couldn't tell if you were referring to my comments in the section above or someone else. If you were addressing me, I'll be glad to respond. And thanks for pointing me to the list. (Most are already on the renown programmers list.)

regards, --UnicornTapestry (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Ack! I inserted my response in the wrong section (don't know how that happened). Yes, I was referring to the programmers you added. But like I said, I'm not really in the mood to fight about it. The list contains some of my personal favorites who, today, probably don't deserve to be on there. I don't think we'll ever pare it down to just the five or so I mentioned above. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

I was just looking at this list and reading the discussions. I think what is needed is a clear inclusion criteria. What makes a game programmer notable? I propose we form some sort of consensus on how we define "notable" for this list. The method which requires the least original research and is least objective is by only adding programmers only when there's a reliable source directly stating that (s)he is a notable/significant/important programmer. If we do want to consider other factors there's criteria such as creation of video games, video games series, utilities or software used for video games, etc.. Once we've decided on a criteria it should be stated in the sentence at the start of the list section per WP:LIST. Any thoughts? Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Biased paragraph

B44H removed a paragraph I added (actually, it may have been from my original version of the article):

However, there are also some 2-year colleges that offer game development degrees, including "game programming." These "colleges" are notorious for churning out graduates who know little more than how to use a level editor. While not useless information, to be sure, these graduates are taught little in the way of actual programming.

He stated it was biased. While I disagree that it is biased (it is absolutely true), I don't have any source other than my personal experience (e.g. graduates of DigiPen and Full Sail). This, of course, is "original research," which is prohibited on Wikipedia (forgot that little bit when I posted it). Anyone know of any sources (aside from personal experience) that back this up? I think it's valuable information for anyone persuing a career in game programming or those looking to hire programmers. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The statement "graduates are taught little in the way of actual programming" is untrue, speaking from my personal experience regarding DigiPen and Full Sail. I think some of the student-written post-mortems might be enlightening. (Such as [1] or these two which google found: [2], [3].) The question of reputation for such schools is common, which might make it easier to find a source for that angle. --Mrwojo 04:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I can vouch that Full Sail, while extremely expensive, puts a lot into training its students and is a very serious school. I see competing ads for Dave's School, but I have no clue how they compare.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 07:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Experience needed

I added that most employers require bachelors degree in maths, physics, computer science, software engineneering, computer engineering or relevant subject.

If you'll be editing it further, here are some of most usually required experiences(minimum), i didn't really know if i should add them:

JUNIOR PROGRAMMERS:

• 2 years of experience in programming(mostly c++)

"REGULAR" PROGRAMMERS:

• 2 years of experience in gaming industry
• one published game title

SENIOR PROGRAMMERS:

• 5 years of experience in gaming industry
• three published game titles

ALL PROGRAMMERS:(there's always at least one of these)

• good mathemathics ability
• strong problem solving skills
• self-organizational and self motivated
• good time management
• experience in object-oriented programming for all C++ programmers
• the already mentioned Bachelors degree

I.E., graphics programmers mostly need knowledge of 3D math and 3D geometry while game physics programmers need an extensive knowledge of physics etc.

No, you were right to leave it out. I've seen hundreds of postings for game programming jobs and the requirements company by company vary widely. Some require experience on "at least 2 shipped titles," some say a BS is enough. If you're planning to contribute to Wikipedia very much, you should get an account and learn wikimarkup. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's all relative. There are game programmers without degrees who've gained jobs with no previous industry experience. In addition, games companies put heavy emphasis on the requirement of having a passion for games as the highest priority requirement. --JamesTheNumberless 15:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research

I don't know if this article, since it is in a special category, is affected by this rule. Much of this article seems to be original research, or at the least needs a good, hard bat with the needs-to-cite-references stick. I read through a lot of it, and much of it seems accurate, and potentially quite useful. However, that isn't enough, if it is indeed original research, to necessarily include the article in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.110.123 (talk • contribs)

I wrote most of this article back before Wikipedia took a hard stance on citing refs. Yes, to the best of my knowledge, it is accurate. But go ahead apply the stick. — Fгɛςкlɛƒoστ | Talk 18:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Pay

I think that it would be good to include a chart on the basic pay scale for big companies like EA, SuareEnix, and the like. Because i'm unsure of exacally how much they would make in a yearly basis. anyone with me on this? 65.124.8.131 15:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Game Developer publishes charts on this annually. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 17:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

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