Talk:Andy Ngo

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

"alleged attacks"

"The suit stems from multiple alleged attacks on Ngo in Portland during 2019" How it's alleged if it can be proven(and is) true? Antifa have assaulted him and even went after him in hospital after he hospitalized because of their previous attack 86.124.122.29 (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has not been proven yet. Reliable sources almost always refer to matters of fact that have yet to be determined by courts as alleged. Wikipedia editors are not allowed to weigh evidence and determine facts and instead rely on what reliable sources report. TFD (talk) 20:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andy Ngo is clearly a journalist or citizen journalist

The lead already calls him a journalist. Just not in the first sentence. No action required.

The opening sentence reads "Andy Cuong Ngo is an American right-wing social media influencer, who is known for covering and video-recording demonstrators." "Influencer" is not a common English word but rather a modern slang term. In fact the hyperlink in this article to "influencer" in the first sentence of this article, redirects to "Internet Celebrity". Such a slang term is not encyclopedic.

Going back in time this article described Ngo originally as a journalist, then at some point "an American right-wing journalist, author, and social media influencer", then at some point, "right-wing author and social media influencer", then at some point "right-wing social media influencer". The opening sentence has piece by piece trimmed the more respectworthy occupations of journalist and author from his description, leaving only "social media 'influencer'". Clearly there is fishy business going on in this padlocked article. Even putting all the fishy business to the side, "influencer" is not a plain English word, and its referent is not at all clear.120.88.155.223 (talk) 18:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read more than one sentence of the lede before posting here. Also please read the RFC that determined this presentation: [1] Simonm223 (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Influencer is as much a common/plain English word as respectworthy is (respectworthy is archaic, you will only find it used once in the entire corpus of wikipedia... influencer is used tens of thousands of times). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SPLC Hatewatch "blog"

Peter Gulutzan, PackMecEng and TarnishedPath, regarding this edit, please note that SPLC Hatewatch is no longer described as a "blog". A source will need to be provided to support that description, otherwise it will be removed. –dlthewave ☎ 02:35, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When did the change occur? Was it a blog at the time it reported on Ngo? I think the Ngo article is from 2020. Here is a Rolling Stone article from 2022 that still says Hatewatch Blog [2]. Here is a CMU researcher working for SPLC talking about working for the Hatewatch Blog [3]. Here is a Jan 2024 SPLC article that calls it Hatewatch blog [4]. This is a 2021 Atlanta area news article that calls it a blog [5]. 2021 BI [6]. June 2020 SPLC article [7]. The Grayzone in 2021 [8]. For what it's worth, the Grayzone article talks about a Hatewatch writer who's work was retracted by the SPLC for various issues. That would suggest they aren't putting much oversight into those reports. I think it's fair to say at least at the time of the article "Hatewatch" was described as a blog. If it's no longer described as such when did the change occur? Springee (talk) 03:15, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Given what Dlthewave has written above I would suggest the setnence should read:

In August 2020, the Southern Poverty Law Center's Hatewatch said ...

An alternative is that we go with something along the lines of what Springee has suggested:

In August 2020, the Southern Poverty Law Center's Hatewatch, which at the time was described as a blog, said ...

However I think that would make for a less readable sentence, but I'm not going to die on a hill over it.

I've left a message on PackMecEng's user talk requesting that they revert their last edit, in light of the detail provided by Dlthewave, and per the active arbitration remedies at the top of this page. TarnishedPath^talk 08:21, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Dlthewave Do you have anything to support that it is no longer a blog? Sources describe it as such, but I dont see any saying that status has changed. PackMecEng (talk) 11:20, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It might be helpful to know what Hatewatch really is. Looking at The Grayzone it seems somewhat like Forbes contributors vs Forbes where the masthead publisher doesn't really exercise proper editorial oversite over the content unless there is some level of pushback. For a long time it's been called a blog. If SPLC hasn't said why it's not I would presume it still is. If it's not something like Forbes contributors perhaps it's more like a NEWSBLOG. I feel like the combination of BLOG+activist organization is going to be problematic from a RS POV. Springee (talk) 11:49, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's somewhat hard to prove a negative in that Hatewatch is simply described by SPLC as a "resource". There is no page that says "this is not a blog" but, then again, there's no page at New York Times that says "this is not a blog." Springee's claims above seem to be a personal opinion ungrounded in fact. Simonm223 (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's a view shared by a number of sources. You don't share that view but that's also your opinion. That so many sources, including the SPLC, called it a blog does suggest that, at least at some point, SPLC viewed it as such. However it would be consistent with your view that non academic sources should be treated with greater scrutiny. I believe you are argued that even normal media sources should be treated more like yellow vs green sources. Springee (talk) 13:27, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do hold that opinion. However I also think you are degrading the quality of the SPLC more than you would other advocacy groups. I will, however, always advocate that academic sources are preferred. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any evidence of that claimed inconsistency? I've been clear that I think all advocacy groups should be no better than yellow. When such groups make contentious claims about blp subjects I think the standard should be higher. That applies to all advocacy groups. I've also argued that it would be best if we only use advocacy org info after it's referenced by a RS. You might feel I'm to strict but where is the evidence of inconsistency? I am sympathetic to the academic source view you have so long as the academic source is provided with the evidence that supports their claim. When I published work my claims (and methods) were either backed by my own arguments or sources. If something in one of my articles appeared without either I would consider it no better than the author's opinion (my opinion). Springee (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

SPLC has been discussed 15+ times at RSN and there's clear consensus that it's reliable, so we're not going to relitigate that here. On the other hand, Grayzone was deprecated a few years back due to publishing false information. Is there a better source that describes Hatewatch in detail? Based on our current knowledge, we should consider it to be under the editorial auspices of SPLC. –dlthewave ☎ 12:09, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a clear consensus that it's reliable. The RSP entry has limitations and disclaimers. It doesn't specifically mention hatewatch but if it is operated without full editorial oversight (as the Grayzone article evidence suggests) then it should likely be reviewed separately. That would be a RSN topic. Springee (talk) 13:30, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Two things I will agree with you on:

This would be appropriate to take to WP:RS/N.
Mobile editing is very frustrating. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is my friend. Yes it is. Springee (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]