Talk:Killing of Nahel Merzouk/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name

@WikiCleanerMan: "Naël Case" was not the name of the person. "Case" is the noun meaning "affair", "scandal", "criminal event". Naël was an early spelling mistake by the media. He is now called "Nahel M." His full last name not been made public. GrandEscogriffe (talk) 16:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I had not seen I could move the page myself. Done. GrandEscogriffe (talk) 16:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Banana50iq The contributions you've made to the article consist of removing a reliable source in favor of three tweets and uncited speculation about the victim's character. They include misuse of external links and are not written in an encyclopedic tone. Please discuss any changes you want to make here, before adding reverting them back into the article. :3 F4U (they/it) 23:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Mercedes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Who rented the car which Nahel was driving without a licence? Why wasn't the renter driving? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 14:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Our article already notes it was rented by Nahel M. [1] "Nahel M. rented the car through an application that did not require any documents." Nil Einne (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merged per WP:DOIT- Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 21:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

---

Killing of Nael M seems to be the same article, should it be merged into this one? FatalFit | ✉ | ✓  16:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Support and frankly this is a case of WP:DOIT. - Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 17:06, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support merging the other article into this one, the correct spelling. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

  Most sources report "Nael M" instead of Nahel. - Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 17:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support, Just Do It. Preferably into the Nael M article Presidentofyes12 (talk) 18:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

21-year-old death

According to this source https://www.nicematin.com/faits-divers/emeutes-dans-les-banlieues-le-jeune-homme-blesse-durant-une-attaque-est-decede-858266, a 21-year-old man has also died due to the riots. How do I edit this in? Brocen (talk) 15:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Issue resolved, edit made Brocen (talk) 16:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi protect request

people are putting porn on this page so semi protect it Sebbog13 (talk) 10:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2023

Top section: Change “The official version of events” to “Initial reporting on the incident, informed by police statements,” Trilomonk (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the intro, please mention that he is of Moroccan and Algerian descent. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/europe/nahel-france-police-shooting-nanterre.html 2600:100C:A211:73E1:78BC:D15B:EA1D:2C4 (talk) 19:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done: lede now reads "a 17-year-old French youth of Maghrebi (Moroccan and Algerian[2]) descent" Xan747 (talk) 20:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Surname

Is there any reliable source for the subject's surname, and therefore the title of the page? My Google News only shows it on Yahoo, which isn't the best for fact checking or non-Anglosphere stories, in my personal opinion. French Wikipedia has the surname in one reference, but that's probably added by an over-eager editor, as the source itself uses just the initial in the title. [2] This is very basic WP:V stuff, how can an article be titled after an assumption? Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• First sentence: [3]. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Background

The current content of Background section is quite woke - along the lines of "police is evil, arabs are discriminated". No mentions of real context - recurrent terrorist attacks by islamists in France, no-go zones, arab ghettos, elevated terror threat levels for years, with military patrols in cities - the context explaining why French police gets nervous in the situation this killing took place. Birdofpreyru (talk) 10:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree; it portrays the authorities as being routinely racist against people of Arab & African descent. There's no mention of the demographics or incidents of crime in France. Post 9/11, it has by far the highest incidence of terrorism of any country in the Western world. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 14:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you guys can read the sources (that themselves discuss background in relation to this event) and, if warranted, suggest improved phrasings. Of course, the immediate mention of islamists and the idea that France having a high incidence of terrorism is necessary context suggests to me that the concern here is not in good faith. Kingsif (talk) 03:42, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll leave it to folks who read French, as I don't. I don't see why mentioning islamism and terrorism in the context of this event is a bad faith? These attacks happen in France routinely, the last time less than a month ago some dude of Syrian origin butchered some kids (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230615-france-knife-attack-suspect-transferred-to-psychiatric-hospital). Sure it is completely irrelevant context for an event when French police sees three arab yongsters driving around a Mercedes and trying to escape police. Birdofpreyru (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Nahel Merzouk Background

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The current subsection on the background of Merzouk is very confusing. It says that he did not have a criminal record, and then immediately after says: “But he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest," and in fact had been charged with resisting the previous weekendand five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of narcotics.”

The information in this paragraph seems to contradict the opening sentence. It says he did not have a criminal record, and then elaborates the details of a lengthy criminal record. Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here? If so, I think that definition should be elaborated, so that the paragraph makes sense. Is it that he was never convicted in these 15 incidents? Or that he was not charged?

In either of these cases, I would think it would be more accurate to say something like “Merzouk has not been charged or convicted in any criminal case, however he does have an extensive record of contact with law enforcement.” The rest of the paragraph would make more sense in that case. Currently it is a non-sequitur. EthanZappa (talk) 03:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the lack of a “criminal record” a technicality based on the fact that he has a minor and has only been arrested and charged as a juvenile? I cannot read the French sources, so I am unable to verify. But the way this is written seems fallacious. Why would the topic sentence for a paragraph about a person’s history of criminal charges state that the person has no criminal record? EthanZappa (talk) 03:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there a technical definition of “criminal record” being used here? - a "criminal record" has always referred to convictions. This does not need to be spelled out. Kingsif (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Basically in France the justice is pretty lenient (especially with underage offenders) and tends not to sentence offenders before several offenses have been committed. The term "casier judiciaire" means the official record of people who have been sentenced, and Nahel had none as he was never sentenced. But he did get arrested 15 times for various offenses. 90.119.26.215 (talk) 05:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

That is not specific to France, that's just what a criminal record is everywhere. If you want to continue chatting about Nahel's arrests, social media exists. Kingsif (talk) 05:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

You are missing a nuance in EthanZappa's comment and it's not professional behavior to write this question off the way you do and to try to close the discussion. If France never gives underage offenders a criminal record, then it is of course non-informative to state that Nahel does not have a criminal record (as no-one his age does, however bad they may be), and not expanding on the fact that he has been arrested many times may be an unfortunate omission, as the age of criminal responsibility differs widely between different countries: in France this statement may be completely non-informative, while in Canada it would mean he has not been arrested for a serious crime since the age of 14. Without clarifying his arrest record, this article is not internationally accessible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.71.59.107 (talk) 19:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split Proposal

I have a proposal. Should the 2023 French Race Riots be split into its own article named 2023 French Race Riots? The template in the Nationwide unrest section has it named as that. Cwater1 (talk) 15:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems like Nahel Merzouk protests was split off of this article or from an article that was merged to this article. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@Super Goku V Hi. I saw that earlier ago. Thanks! Cwater1 (talk) 03:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)