Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Derek Allen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Majority of comments + poorly sourced BLP = delete. Also, the two Keep comments are based on this person being a pro wrestler, which isn't sourced at all Black Kite (t) (c) 06:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Derek Allen

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Contested prod. Proposed deletion reason was "Non notable kid wrestler, fails WP:BIO. One local source for a game where he "competed" as a gimmick could be found, but this is clearly insufficient for a Wikipedia article." The local source was an article in the South Florida Sun, also linked in the article. This is a clear case of WP:BLP1E, a living person (and young child to boot) who has received minimal attention once for what is essentially a gimmick (even in the world of wrestling), and has not received any attention in reliable sources since (the other sources given in the article don't really qualify as such). Fram (talk) 07:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. -- -- Lear's Fool (talk | contribs) 09:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He participated in many major matches. The fact that such events don't get any mainstream media coverage, doesn't make them less notable. Being the world's youngest Pro Wrestler and the world's youngest champion in professional Wrestling, makes him notable. Dream Focus 11:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's "major" as in ... what? Number of spectators? Number of published reports? Long, developed competition one has to compete in to get to that stage? Was he truly a "pro wrestler" between ages 10 and 12, competing in, what, five (not really "many" either) matches in those years? This in a wrestling promotion, Future of Wrestling, where a crowd of 3,000 is "one of its biggest shows". Note that the one (local) article about Derek Allen is titled "THE ROAR OF A SMALL CROWD", which doesn't give the impression that we are truly talking about anything major here. Fram (talk) 12:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)also should be noted that he can not be the youngest Champion if the title isn't recognized.[reply]

Comment Dream Focus, what links can you provide to assert that this event(s) are notable? A lot of wrestler have wrestled in front of 3,000 people, but that doesn't make them notable. Steve Corino's son wrestled when he was very young. But there isn't an article on him. So why this person? One event with limited coverage with a title that may or may not have existed doesn't make it notable. Stop with inclusionism. You are ignoring the fact this person is not notable and are trying to include him because of one event that isn't notable. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you actually bothered to read the article you are trying to destroy, you'd see he has appeared on television shows notable to wrestlers, and been featured in skits with famous wrestlers. The Sun Sentinel has published articles about him, such as one linked to in the article [1]. Dream Focus 04:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment You haven't provided anything outside of the one link to assert notability. A lot of wrestlers have appeared in skits and on TV shows with other wrestlers, that doesn't make them notable. If we went by your thinking, then we would have an article on every jobber and insignificant indy wrestler. Besides, the article is a mess and fails WP:N. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 04:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Doing interviews and making appearances on shows, does make someone notable. Also, do we need this many tags [2]? You seem to have added one for everything imaginable. Dream Focus 05:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Yet you are not providing references that any of this happened. We can't go off WP:BECAUSEISAIDSO. It doesn't work that way. Well, you obviously are not bothering to rectify any of the problems this article is facing and the big one being notability. If keeping this article is so important to you, then you should be rewriting the article, sourcing it, making it NPOV, among other things. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 05:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The news article mentions him wrestling. He is notable for being the youngest wrestler ever. There are even YouTube videos showing the events he has been in. Do you sincerely doubt the information in the article? I contacted the man last night, and asked him to provide information about what shows he has been on, and when, and what news mention he has received. That'll help clear things up. Dream Focus 13:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete No assertion of notability can be assessed. Only thing found was links to videos on YouTube of him. YouTube is not the best source for references. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 02:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm not sure this article can be sourced, but if reliable sources are found that assert notability, I'll change to keep. AniMate 14:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The following: "Many note Derek Allen OFFICIALLY to be the Youngest Wrestler, and the Youngest Wrestling Champion BEFORE Randy Orton." That is strictly POV. Randy Orton is the youngest WWE or World Heavyweight Champion in WWE history. There is a difference. Plus Derek Allen never supposedly won a WORLD caliber championship. The following: "Although his first match was a unforgettable, shocker being that a 9 year old was wrestling with 30 year olds (and Winning) Derek Allen achieved his wrestling fame through MANY other memorable matches..." Who says they are memorable? You? That is POV. The word shocker is a weasel word because there is no logic in wrestling for the most part. Dramatic Dream Team, a Japanese promotion has a title called the DDT Heavymetalweight Championship in which "a ten year old who could chokeslam adults" won it. That is not logical a ten year old child could do that. So that just reinforces that there is no logic in wrestling for the most part. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 16:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added in bits from the Future of Wrestling website, he mentioned as performing at various events, and winning what is a notable award in Wrestling. Dream Focus 03:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment You are making a mess of the article. It is in such a bad state and you have ignored the POV concerns as stated above and just left it there. You are not doing to anything to remedy the POV concerns and you have not done anything on the notability front. That one reference you put in the article isn't enough. It's just a result archive on a promotions site and not even from an independent source. You don't seem to be taking this seriously and you need to edit this article heavily so it doesn't look you are doing it based on having a close connection with the subject. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 05:36, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The primary source is fine to confirm the facts, obviously. The Wrestling organization has an official website confirming that this person participated in matches. Dream Focus 05:48, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment You can't rely on just one source or it is going to pose some notability issues. A varying array of independent sources whether online or hard copy is what you need to help assert notability. You don't seem to get the idea of sourcing or you would have provided five independent sources. Now I challenge you to present me five independent sources and to re-write the entire article with an NPOV. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 09:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you need five sources? One is enough. The newspaper covered it, and all the information is verifiable. Dream Focus 07:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The fact you are not willing to look for other sources show me that you are not willing to do it and or you did look and couldn't find anything. You are not doing anything to show me it's so important to keep this article. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 16:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would I being trying to show you anything? You made up your mind already. I believe the evidence shows this person is clearly notable, and you do not. We'll see what everyone else has to say. Dream Focus 16:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While certainly the article might benefit from a re-write through regular editing, and as the age thing is really not so important (albeit an nice addition), the subject appears to pass WP:Athlete... and it seems that WP:ATH does not mandate also meeting WP:GNG... else there would fewer athletes here in Wikipedia. I do not believe WP:ATH is only for football, baseball, and basketball players. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 07:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What evidence do you have that he was a professional athlete between the ages of 9 and 12 or thereabouts? He didn't compete at the highest level of his sport, so I presume that you have evidence that his matches qualify as "People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport". I seriously doubt that these appearances qualify as such. Fram (talk) 08:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nice bit of WP:OTHERCRAP Michael. WP:OTHERCRAP is a waste of time in this instance. If you are using that as a excuse to have this article kept, then we would have an article on every jobber and insiginifcent indy wrestler. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 16:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed... no denying. It's OTHERCRAP all right. I believe that WP:ATH needs a major overhaul so that just "playing on a pro team" is not enough. Someone has to do something individually notable, rather than having their notability be INHERITED from membership on a pro team. And the WWE is simply hype and showmanship... but hype and showmanship that gets individual coverage. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 02:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Absolutely no secondary sources apart from the one article. Looking at the results from the FOW website, I question many of them as real. Get Dumb 12:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Plus the most notable wrestlers that FOW promotion had was Lo-Ki and Curt Hennig. The rest are not notable.Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 16:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

His official YouTube channel has video footage of all the events, so we can prove that they are in fact real. Also, why would a major promoter lie on their own website about past events? That makes no sense at all. Dream Focus 16:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment YouTube is a not good for sources. We need sources to news stories and articles. You keep refusing to do any of this. Why? It's because none such sources exist outside of that one. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 16:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube shows these things actually did happen! Although yes, we do have news sources also. The Sun Sentinel article linked to in the article itself, and Google news search reveals him in later fights, such as the article in Sacramento Bee - NewsBank - Jan 30, 2001 [3] which you have to pay to read any but the opening paragraph, but the article mentions him in the title, and the wrestling match. Dream Focus 04:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Hoax. You Tube videos can be doctored which is why they are poor sources. If this kid was really wrestling it would have been huge news. !! Justa Punk !! 23:22, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was mentioned as a child wrestler by the Sun Sentinel [4], he a child then, hitting someone over the head with a cookie sheet. And the official site listing all the fights the Future of Wrestling has, as mentioned above, list him participating in several events. Dream Focus 04:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One newspaper? Huge news = multiple newspapers. So where are they? The site in my opinion is rubbish. If those wrestlers (Lo-Ki, Hennig, even Danny Doring) had been there where's the coverage from other sites that covered wrestling at the time like PW Torch? !! Justa Punk !! 04:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.