Wikipedia talk:Policies and guidelines/Archive 15

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Universal Wikipedia Policies and guidelines, or individual English Wikipedia Policies and guidelines, or both?

The name Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines suggests that the accompanying project page informs about the universal policies and guidelines valid on all Wikipedia language editions. In other words: all rules approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees with 'power of law' on all Wikimedia Projects, including all Wikipedia language editions. The text however does not make clear what the global policies are. The text doesn't inform either about the specific policies and guidelines valid for the English language edition Wikipedia community, established by that community within the borders of the universal WMF Policies and guidelines. The project page is made available in over 100 other languages, which also gives the impression that the page offers information about the universal policies and guidelines with validity on all Wikipedia projects - which it does not.

I've made the observation that mountains of misunderstandings do exist around the broad and rather complex topic Wikimedia Movement Policies and guidelines and the project page does not excel in delivering clearity here. The friendly suggestion therefore is to expand the text with:

• a section containing a general introduction to the legal ecosystem in which all Wikimedia projects, including all Wikipedia projects, are operating, with some milestones from Nupedia/Wikipedia/Wikimedia governing history;
• a summary of the most important actual valid universal Wikimedia Foundation Policies and guidelines, with 'rule of law' on all Wikipedia projects, like the WMF Bylaws, Terms of Use, Universal Code of Conduct and UCoC Enforcement guidelines (see: summary 1, summary 2 by the WMF)
• a section explaining the actual valid policies, guidelines and best-practices on the English language Wikipedia edition.

This will have a global effect because I did notice by reading through some of the other language project pages, that other communities simply did translate this page as being the rules valid on their Wikipedia edition. Unaware of the possibility that every individual community has, to establish their own specific policies, so long as these are in conformity with the framework of global policies.

Thanks for your attention, Kevin Bouwens (talk) 12:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to the English Wikipedia, @Kevin Bouwens. When you say "This header" in your first sentence, what header are you talking about? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @WhatamIdoing for the swift reply, welcome and question. It's about the header "Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines", pointing out to Wikipedia in general, not only the English language edition (I've changed the sentence so others will understand). The webaddress is admittedly: "en.wikipedia.org", but that doesn't mean that the content only refers to the English language version; compare it with the lemma Wikipedia on the English language version.

My suggestion is to write on a page with this name about the general situation, and on another page "English Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines" about the Policies and guidelines that only are 'in power' on the English language edition / for the English language project community. Alternative: write both sections on this page, clearly divided. In case it turns out not to be easy for experienced Wikipedians to untangle the policies and guidelines in a section with global validity and a section with validity on the English language version, I would be happy to assist in figuring that out, when whished. Keep up! Kevin Bouwens (talk) 06:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

If you are concerned about the page title at the top of the page, which looks like this:

Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines

then the "Wikipedia:" part indicates the namespace, and we can't actually change it on this page.

We could change the first sentence to say "The English Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are developed by the community". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The individual Wikipedia editions in different languages are separate from the Engliah Wikipedia. As it says in the introduction to this policy "This policy page specifies the community standards related to the organization, life cycle, maintenance of, and adherence to policies, guidelines, and related pages of the English Wikipedia. It does not cover other editions of Wikipedia." If you click on languages near the top right you get the nearest equivalent to the page in other languages, most have not achieved the level of bureaucratification of the English version 😃 NadVolum (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Venue

I've seen a couple of claims, during the last year or two, that proposals for WP:PGCHANGES should happen at the village pump, instead of on the talk page for the affected policy/guideline/similar page. It is generally poor practice to do this deliberately, as one sometimes has Group A making a decision about Page B, and then totally surprising Group B when Group A implements the changes. There are, however, times when it makes sense (e.g., when multiple guidelines could be affected, you don't necessarily want to pick one talk page over the others) and other times when it's just what happens (e.g., a discussion takes an unexpected turn). I wonder whether we should make this more explicit. Something like "Changes to a single guideline or policy should normally be discussed on the talk page for that guideline or policy"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I really don’t think the venue of a policy discussion matters - what DOES matter is that as many editors as possible know that the discussion is taking place, and where to go to participate in it. So, leave lots of neutral notifications (everywhere you can think of) clearly linking to the discussion. Blueboar (talk) 22:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

We say "Amendments to a proposal can be discussed on its talk page......start a request for comment (RfC) about your policy or guideline proposal in a new section on the proposal's talk page. Include the {{rfc}}..." Should we be more blunt? Moxy🍁 22:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Yet, WP:Village Pump (policy) says that it should be “used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines.”

So… I can see why people are confused. Especially if you think there is only one “correct” to do things. I don’t. I don’t think the location of an RFC matters as long as max people are notified a) that it is taking place, and b) where it is taking place.

If at VPP, notify the P/G page. If at the P/G page, notify VPP. Simple. Blueboar (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

People should defer to existing policies and guidelines over administration pages. How long has this been there at the village pump? Village pump should be there to direct people to the right page not be the page itself in my view as outline in our policy page "The RfC should typically be announced at the policy and/or proposals village pumps, and you should notify other potentially interested groups". Should be fixed as per WP:POLCON. Moxy🍁 00:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not quite as simple as that. Usually, you need to defer to the most specific information. For example, WP:V says that "Reputable newspapers" are reliable sources, but MEDRS says that they're not reliable for biomedical information. You defer to MEDRS because it's more specific, not because guidelines inherently outrank policies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#The header for this page about adjusting the wording of the sentence at the top of WP:VPP. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Venue

• For small-to-medium discussions affecting a single page: Prefer the talk page for that policy, guideline, or other page.
• For small-to-medium discussions affecting multiple pages: Start the discussion at the talk page for one of the affected pages or at the Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Notify the other pages about the central location.
• For long discussions: Create a separate page (e.g., Wikipedia:Requests for comment/YOUR SUMMARY HERE) or as a subpage of the policy or guideline (e.g., Wikipedia:Verifiability/First sentence).

Maybe a note like one of these? Or maybe this is overkill?

Recommended venues – Do your best to notify other relevant pages

Expected discussion	Talk page	Village pump	Separate page
Short	Y	Y
Long		N	Y
About one page	Y		Y
About multiple pages	Y	Y	Y

WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• I still think you are overthinking it. But I don’t object. Key is to leave notifications. Blueboar (talk) 23:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• Since I am always clearly right, I always expect short discussions. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Then we must always agree, because I too am always right! WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• I think it is a bit of overkill. I agree with Blueboar that leaving notifications at the relevant pages is the most important guidance. The location of the discussion is flexible and can be moved to a separate subpage on an as-deemed-useful basis. isaacl (talk) 14:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  Love it.....we need to keep things simple for new editors. Moxy🍁 18:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)