Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sven70

The following discussion is an archived record of a user conduct request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the page.

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 21:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 09:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC).

Sven70 (talk · contribs · logs)

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Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Sven70 (previous account 史凡), has been messaging several uninvolved editors, requesting that they look into his block at Wiktionary and with claims of discrimination on the basis of his disability. It is important to note that Sven70 has Repetitive_strain_injury, so he often posts on talk pages using short hand, which may be hard to understand. However, when Sven70 is told that his block on Wiktionary cannot be resolved on Wikipedia and that there is no discrimination, he launches personal attacks and finds other users to ask.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

Sven70 agrees to stop personal attacks.
Sven70 agrees to stop messaging users about his block at Wiktionary.
Sven70 agrees to stop messaging users with claims of discrimination.

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}

Sven70 has RSI, which results in difficult to understand posts on talk pages. This current dispute started at the Wiktionary project, where Sven70 was blocked. Sven70 continues to state that he was blocked at Wiktionary because of his disability, but the actual block reason and subsequent discussion there indicated that he was blocked due to harassment and abusive emails to other editors. After being blocked at Wiktionary, Sven70 came to Wikipedia and requested action from the community in hopes of resolving the Wiktionary issue. Several users have made it clear that Wikipedia cannot, and does not, deal with issues that arise on other projects, but Sven70 responds by saying that this is an issue of discrimination, and so thus should be cross project. Not seeing any discrimination, other users tell Sven70 that there has been no discrimination, and Sven70 leaves a personal attack on the user's talk page and then goes on to find another user to ask. This is a repetitive cycle, which has involved many editors, recently a lot of new users who have nothing to do with the issue. Sven70 has also posted at MetaWiki about this, but was met with the same response. This is relevant, as Sven70 was told to contact someone from the foundation directly.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

While this happened on another project (META), it's the same behavior.

Updated 13:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It might be better to provide global contributions too, as he also posts at random projects. Request for help again

There are a lot more edits, but I think these are enough to provide people with a general idea.

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

No personal attacks
Canvassing
No legal threats (not sure about this one, because his posts are hard to understand)

Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

Being told at Wiktionary can't be dealt with here (not the first time)
Same thing
Trying to explain again

Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

Netalarm^talk 22:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Xavexgoem (talk) 22:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC) via Skype, primarily. See note on top of Sven's talk page. I can attest to NLT, in a rather roundabout way, but not a blockable offense in this case, imho.[reply]
Stifle (talk) 08:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other users who endorse this summary

-- Cirt (talk) 01:40, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View by certifier Xavexgoem

OK, so I'm not an "outside party", but I don't know where else to put it.

As I've said numerous times to Sven, this is not about the RSI. This is about behavior, and it has nothing or very little to do with how words are typed: it could be in shorthand or elegant prose, and the problem would remain the same. This viewpoint is an appeal to get as many people as possible to say that this is not about Sven's RSI; that although it may frustrate some people, we're tolerant or accepting of his need for shorthand; that it was not any disability that brings him to RfC/U; that it is not any disability that is keeping him blocked at Wiktionary, disregarding the intolerant few; that it will be his behavior that gets him blocked from the English Wikipedia, not his use of shorthand, not his appeals to the Foundation, not from a lack of understanding about RSI or how he communicates here to overcome that.

This is about his behavior. Many editors have come through here and worse for behavior. We hope he will change, RSI and shorthand be damned.

Users who endorse this summary:

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section. Or you can find something else to do."[c.bass onhistalk

cantclimstairsinurweelchair?>"Or] you can find something else to do. "![sumother'perls'ther,buthucarzha?=STONAGE,butnowicanspendHRSfamiliarizinmew/rfc,owusefrendly;buteyVICTIM=BADGUY,yWMFgetcaldRUDinowondeanymor,sam4urflaginedits.ta4avinmeTYP!emailTOWMF> Mr Godwin, > > I am User: [namrepresd4now]on en-WP. I have in my capacity as an administrator been contacted by a User:Sven70. I am advised that he is a Belgian national, although currently based in Taiwan. I understand that this individual suffers from severe Repetitive Strain Injury, and is functionally disabled. This disability frequently manifests itself by making typing both difficult and extremely painful. Despite this, Sven70 is determined to be a good contributor - I understand that the majority of his mainspace edits have been to projects such as wiktionary, where the environment is more suited for small quantity (and quality) edits. Since the RSI was a late onset condition, Sven70 has adapted a form of shorthand to enable him to have some communication ability - it is initially difficult to understand, but is comprehensible with a little effort. > > Sven70 complains that he is encountering difficulties on some of the wiki projects on account of his disability; that he has been tagged as a vandal for adding gibberish to talkpages, his use of all caps (he cannot switch easily, every key stroke adding to the effort) regarded as shouting, and his admitted use of vulgar emphasis when frustrated, has lead some functionaries on some projects to label him a vandal only account and to have him blocked. As his block log grows, the less functionaries are inclined to investigate more deeply and the more likely he is to be blocked. Sven70 greatly desires that this discrimination, as he sees it, is addressed, and that he be permitted to contribute to the wiki's as far as he is able. > > I realise that there may be little that you can do, personally, in this matter. I am asking you, however, if you could refer this matter to the Foundation - I do not know if such instances are covered by the Foundation's status as a charity, or Disability legislation in the United States or Florida, but I presume someone there should. Sven speaks and has a fair understanding of English, and it is likely to be more convenient for someone to speak to him via Skype or Windows Messenger. His signature contains contact details. > > Thank you for reviewing this. I shall be copying the same message to Jimbo Wales, to maximise the likelihood of this being acted upon. > > RegardsNOREPLYWOTSOEVA[>20.8.10]-but wiktadminupacrust+wmfsaydeynoDISCRIMINAT,soitmusbesohuh[nprovidifs wotuwant"o,itsanotheprojkt>mURDERther=ok sins wmfDUNCAR]~BRAINWASHEDIDOLISIN[gods=wmfppl,UNfalibl dey r]medcab;wmfbegsMILIONSOFDO$2ALOWBLATNTDICRIMINATN[cfurthesuminflamatory'perls'onmodl cary.bass talkhistory]=UNaceptabl[nfindishaRD2READ>tawmf4dISALOWINVOISMSGS[evn emailsnowdovois,butwmf=STUKI/DE90S!]!![WMF:URDISABLD=>GETFUKD!!3rdworldparticipatn>getTOPNOTCHMATERLsinswe,wmf,DUNCARSHITBOUTEDITORS!![buMOUTHTYme~en.wikt ncwethe=solutn.[hint:spendadaysay i/awelchair,denkombak2meboutwot=DISCRIMINATN.[dungetinthebuilding?goaway!asputsoeloquentlyby abusiv cary.bas hulstilbewastinDONATNMONYonwmfPAYROL4another1/2year>DUNDONATE!=wotitelevrybodytililc 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en.wtjerks-dad40pplete2wmf'lnotstopther,belivme.not1singltimivandalisdwoteva,butkepHOUNDINME4MYDISABILITY,scum.o-imabusiv?IDUNEVNOSportforaWICHRASABUSIVASWMF/EN.WT!!!!!asunasigotmypc=2slo4spech itryd2getanew1,but4deprovincialtw-butitsme,deVICTIM,GRRR-ntelinmeitsgonabeBRUTLmedcab,sosensitiv-orplainpeRVERS?219.70.23.121 (talk) 11:17 am, Today (UTC+8)-----Please note, I have Repetitive Strain Injury and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 11:24 am, Today (UTC+8) {Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sven70 (talk • contribs)

I was asked to link this page as a translation of the above response. PeterSymonds (talk) 21:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

Outside view by BarkingFish

I was made aware of this user's edits late last night (UTC+1 - about 4 hours ago) and went to review them. It seems to me that the fact that the user is/claims to be disabled by RSI should not be a way out of being chastised for not abiding by the rules of the site. Despite warnings, they've continued to post in violation of policy, and it is very hard to understand what they say when they do reply to something. I'm used (in a professional capacity) to working with people who have communication issues, and even I have difficulty working this out. The user has made it clear via a third party that they're not stupid, which means that they should have the capacity to understand and abide by rules and policies where set. Xavexgoem's request to be notified of blocks is not a problem, but I believe that the time has come judging from what I've seen, for the user to start facing blocks which mean something. Sorry.

Users who endorse this summary:

BarkingFish ^{Talk to me} | ^{My contributions} 01:11, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Doc9871 (talk) 10:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Stifle (talk) 08:08, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
-- Cirt (talk)
The Wordsmith^Communicate 05:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree 100%. Far too often those who get in trouble with the law enforcement in real life claim race, national origin, or disability as an excuse for breaking the law. In this case, the rules being broken here are the harassment of others. This is just wikidrama due to an individual who feels small and marginalized and has come here to stir the pot to get attention somewhere. That s/he pledged to go to Jimbo’s talk page with this makes that even more apparent. People come to Wikipedia to participate in a hobby that is supposed to be an enjoyable one. And now we all have to (*sigh*) and deal with this disruption. If Sven70 can’t conform to conduct expected and participate in a collaborative writing environment in a collegial manner, a forced time-out might enable him/her to understand that no one else has to put up with the abuse and wikidrama. Greg L (talk) 14:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. If Sven70 can type one letter correction on his keyboard, he can take extra time to type all the characters correctly. It’s just that simple. Stephen Hawking gives lengthy lectures via his voice synthesizer in crowded auditoriums and prepares the lectures in advance by typing it word by word and character by character using an eye-driven palette. It is an exceedingly slow process. In Sven’s response, above, I see a huge swath of nonsense that reads like wmfDUNCAR]~BRAINWASHEDIDOLISIN[gods=wmfppl,UNfalibl dey r]medcab;wmfbegsMILIONSOFDO$2ALOWBLATNTDICRIMINATN[cfurthesuminflamatory.
That post has been up there for days now, and Sven70 has made forty or more posts to Wikipedia since, and two of them were to this page. Yet Sven70 seems quite satisfied feeling absolved of the requirement to simply proofread his posts and, seeing such gibberish, go back, select the nonsense portion, delete it, and hit save again. Every bit of his behavior convinces me this is about attention-getting efforts. If I had a disability where I invested loads of extra time to craft nice looking posts, I’d feel slandered by association over the antics Sven70 has exhibited as of late. Greg L (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see where Sven will get frustrated. I see why he may lash out. However, it has been proven that he has a communication delay, not a comprehension delay or learning disability. It seems as though he has the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong. Even if he may have been treated unfairly, I believe he could have respectfully communicated with those involved, that's a rule everyone must follow. He could have done that in short hand, no problem. I know it may be difficult to be respectful after seeing what you consider discrimination (I have Cerebral Palsy and have been in that position many times before), but again, civility is a rule we all must abide by, disability or not. We all need to follow the rules, and accept the consequences for breaking said rules. Again, the problem here is not his way of typing, it's his actions. On a side note, I know the short hand is difficult to read. Perhaps a text to speech program may be of assistance? MJ94 (talk) 07:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1. Please note BarkingFish's comment to #Outside view by The Rhymesmith with regard to the last part of your statement. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by X!

I've generally been pretty tolerant of Sven's RSI. However, recently, it seems that he is using it as an excuse for not following the rules or expecting special treatment as a result. This is where it crosses the lines. Sven, I've defended your ability to edit here, but now it seems that you are taking advantage of us. I would strongly recommend that you invest in a speech-to-text program, lest you get blocked anywhere else.

Users who endorse this summary:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by X! (talk • contribs)

Outside view by LessHeard vanU

I have attempted to persuade admins at Wiktionary to speak, via the internet, to Sven - as communications are far easier to understand - and have drawn an absolute blank. There seems to be no willingness to make the effort. In my discussions with Sven he has explained that his disagreements regarding content on that project have been overcast by other editors inability to communicate with him. Sven's use of a personal "shorthand" has been described as "vandalism" (because it looks like gibberish) or shouting, because he uses capitals to emphasis different words in a stream of letters. I recognise that not all, or even many, of the editors speak or write English as a first language, and might find Sven's writing difficult to follow. I am disappointed, however, to see how few do attempt it - and I was shocked to find that someone on Wiktionary diagnosed Münchausen syndrome, indicating that they do not think that Sven suffers from RPI, when Sven tried to explain their difficulty (I would very much doubt that a medical professional would make such a diagnosis upon review of a few comments, which compounds the impropriety of those appalling comments by that editor.) Simply, I feel, what should be content disputes - which can be dealt with under DR process, such that Wiktionary may have - have been conflated into behavioural issues. Although I am aware that Sven can be difficult, it is not an entirely irrational response when faced with disregard and disrespect - perhaps people should stop poking the bear, and then complain at the response? I am aware that Sven gets frustrated, and when frustrated tends to use vindictive against those most recently trying to help him. That is unfortunate. In a wider sense, though, it is more unfortunate that there does not appear to a way by which an editor with communication issues - not language, but communication - is unable to interact with a project. Banning or otherwise silencing Sven70 may "solve" this particular matter, but does not address the issue of non-inclusion of editors with disability.

Users who endorse this summary;

LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 04:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC). PS It started off as a wkt matter; but with not getting any joy, he starts spamming en:WP. Wrong way to go about it, I'm afraid.[reply]
Certainly. The best solution all round would be to get the original problem fixed at source, even if that's technically outwith our control. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 10:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by The Rhymesmith

WP:COMPETENCE is particularly apposite here. The community has no obligation to accommodate him or his peculiarities. If an editor, for example, edited in a fashion analogous to a typed Tourette's syndrome, the community would be perfectly legitimate in taking the necessary actions to stop the disruption of Wikipedia, without necessarily passing discriminatory judgment on the individual in question. I'm not suggesting either that Sven's editing is akin to a typed version of Tourette's; merely that there is no onus on the community to accommodate his unusual editing if his net contributions are negative. That editors have tried to do so (and in some cases have succeeded) is certainly worthy of commendation, but that model is not one by which all editors on Wikipedia (such those who find gleaning meaning from prolonged tracts of Sven's exceptionally difficult) should be forced to abide. I further note that much of what I have seen of Sven's conduct is both unparsible and disruptive - either of which is independently grounds to take action. I do sympathize with Sven's difficulty, and note that there may be a connection between the community's repudiation of him and his disruptiveness, but ultimately endorse whichever course of action results in stability for Wikipedia, the particular inequities thus caused notwithstanding.

On another note, unrelated to disruptive conduct, I have used both Dragon and Windows Speech Recognition for dictation on Wikipedia, and cannot see why Sven is himself incapable of doing so. The normal prerequisites for editing Wikipedia include a computer with an internet connection and a modicum of competence. While I understand that such software can be expensive, if Sven very much wishes to edit Wikipedia, he should contemplate purchasing it or something similar to achieve communicational parity with other editors.

Comment on this view: - Please be aware that Sven70 in his response has stated that he tried to use voice recognition software, but his PC was too slow. BarkingFish ^{Talk to me} | ^{My contributions} 17:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on Comment: - My apologies, I didn't know that (I had some difficulty Sven's response). I would suggest that he contemplates upgrading his computer, then, if financially feasible, in order to resolve the communication problem. The Rhymesmith (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary;

The Rhymesmith (talk) 01:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder to use the talk page for discussion

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Summary

Matter proceeded to ANI; Sven70 was indef blocked. A dispute arises when at least two parties have an issue; as he is removed from the project, the dispute no longer exists at this time and this step in dispute resolution cannot accomplish anything further. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.