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May 15

How could a new technology shape the English language?

As we shifted from Industrial Revolution, to Technical Revolution, and to Digital Revolution, how would new words keep up if the world was rapidly changing? How fast this technology advanced? What impact on social lives do we have as a result of new technology? 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:51, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Which high school class are these questions coming from? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity. 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My personal take is that the opposite is occurring. Humanity (as a culture) is regressing towards nostalgia and the past, and while it might feel like things are advancing, they really aren't. No major issue facing humanity has been solved or mitigated; new technologies more than ever don't advance us forward, but are in fact based on older ideas that simply monetize their value in new ways and concentrate more power and wealth in fewer hands. We are regressing and backsliding in almost every respect. I've often said that we need new ideas to see the world differently, and with the decline in pure research, pure art, and pure education for the sake of education, we can no longer think in newer and different ways. This in part explains the yearning for past models, and the safety of conservatism for many people, a power relationship that emphasizes top down leadership from strongmen and relieves the general public from having to expend cognitive energy on introspection and criticism, allowing them to outsource their knowledge, experience, and ultimately intelligence to others. Viriditas (talk) 00:11, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You got it, humanity is not just evolving, but linguistics and languages. There is a reason on why new words, best known as neologisms, are very necessary to keep the culture going and relevant at the same time. In my opinion, knowledge with new ideas, are a key to building a improved society and humanity, because of the value and life. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 05:16, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Like it says at the top of this page, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When new things (which may be physical items, new processes, or just abstract ideas) are invented, their inventors, or sometimes users, either invent new words for them, or assign additional new meanings to existing words. Since one can't really use, talk about or often even think about a new thing without having something to call it, the creation of the new (or repurposing of old) words automatically keeps pace. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ASL vs. subtitles in film and television

I am not fluent in ASL, but I think I understand the basic differences between ASL and subtitles. What I'm curious about is how easy or difficult it is to engage in with film or television based on one or the other. Let's assume for the sake of this argument, that the audience is fluent in both. Half the audience has ASL as their first language and the other half English as their first. I think we can all agree that basic subtitles don't have the emotional content and require a delicate balance between reading and watching. What I'm curious about is how this balance works with ASL. I just tried watching an episode of The Last of Us with ASL and another with subtitles, and from my POV, both of them distracted me from the presentation. How does Deaf culture deal with this? Do they have a more developed sense of attention? Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Would that mean an interpretation function similar to this? [1] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:41, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can see a screenshot from the show with ASL here: [2] Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant was, technically, I'd assume the function has another term than just ASL; in Swedish it's "teckenspråkstolkning", lit. "sign language interpretation". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even without sound, subtitles or signing, much of the emotional experience derives from the facial expressions, gestures, attitudes and other behavioural aspects of the acting. Obviously, the emotive colouring of the spoken text adds to that, but with good actors this is perhaps even the least important aspect.

I regularly watch subtitled films and experience no trouble following both the action and the subtitling. I can't speak for the deaf community, but it is reasonable to assume that one gets very adept at following the action while at the same time following the signing. ‑‑Lambiam 21:28, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Subtitled films are not a problem as long as there is no action. My question concerns the overall appreciation of the story and the attention required for ASL. It's obvious that ASL is superior to subtitles, but I have questions about its accuracy and interpretation. Subtitles don't have the emotional overaly, but they are, by and large more neutral and objective. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One advantage of subtitles is that they can be understood by unAmerican deaf people, which by and large ASL cannot. DuncanHill (talk) 21:31, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard that ASL is on the verge of becoming an international signed lingua franca, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious about learning it. Where's a good place to start? Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Plains Sign Language was widely used as a lingua franca among the Indigenous peoples of North America until their forced assimilation. And International Sign is a highly variable pidgin sign language between signers of different SLs. -insert valid name here- (talk) 18:33, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 16

Is there any usage of Brainrot?

Block evasion

The following discussion has been closed by Lambiam. Please do not modify it.

Hello there, when I was browsing on the brainrot article, I had discovered that this term dates back to 1854. Thoreau was critical on what he saw decline in intellectual standards. But it was never used commonly, until the launch of the Internet. It only had its use in 2004, when the term "brain rot" was used by Twitter users to describe dating game shows. However, this is rare and unseen by me until mid-2020s. It had a use increased in 2010s and in early 2020s, trending in discord. But since 2023, this term is gotten so mainstream, that it earned a spot in the dictionary. This term refers to not only low quality or value, but to memes in some cases. In fact, this applies to younger audience, who consume content not regarded as the best quality. Can you please explain on what is the usage of this term before 2020s? Is there evidence that the word is discovered or documents in 19th and 20th centuries? Thank you again if you reply to me and answer my question. (Note: this is not a homework question or intended to debate) 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 05:33, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and ...

When someone with an American accent is demonstrating on a video how they cook a recipe, what I've often heard is that with each step they don't just say "Now I'll add the eggs" or "Here we stir the pot till boiling" or whatever, but it's: "Now I'll go ahead and add the eggs", then "Here I'll go ahead and stir the mixture till it's smooth", then "Now I'll go ahead and let it rest for an hour", followed by "Now I'll go ahead and take it out of the oven", and "Now I'll go ahead and ...".

It seems they've gone ahead 20 times in the course of the demo. It sounds odd to my ears, as telling someone to go ahead is usually a sign that permission is being granted. But a cook can hardly be giving themself permission, can they?

Is this a nation-wide American idiosyncracy? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:07, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw an Australian cooking segment on a show where the presenter (cooking some special donuts) said Try and get them them into the sugar while they're still hot.. The and seems wrong to me. Surely it should be to. HiLo48 (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OED shows that try and has been in use since 1686, so I think we'll have to accept, reluctantly or not, that it's correct English, long and common usage being the only test for these things. --Antiquary (talk) 09:59, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms (Page 150) has the primary meaning of "go ahead" as "to begin or continue an activity without waiting". Your permissive definition comes second. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've always been dubious of objections to "try and". Quite apart from any descriptivist argument that its valid simply because it has been used for centuries and everyone knows what it means, I've often felt that "try and" has something of an implication that success is expected (or at least probable). Iapetus (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds fine (if a bit redundant) to my Canadian ears. Also, "go ahead" doesn't imply asking permission to me. Saying it 20 times is a bit much, though. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would say these expressions are associated with the American south. Another one is "take and". Another variant is "go and".[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:00, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And "Try and Stop Me ". Wiktionary defines this use of and as:

(now dialectal or somewhat colloquial) Used to connect two verbs where the second is dependent on the first: ‘to’. Used especially after come, go and try. [from 14th c.]

I agree this is somewhat colloquial, but I question that this use of and is dialectal. ‑‑Lambiam 11:50, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a nation-wide American idiosyncracy? No. There are 12 varieties of English in the US. People in New York and San Francisco can barely understand each other. That's why I'm trying to learn ASL. Some things like the Bronx cheer are universal. Viriditas (talk) 23:19, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Those 12 varieties are not spelled out in American English. What's your source, Viriditas? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was joking. Surely my comment about learning ASL to bridge the gap between CA and NY was a hint? Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PBS says "Social scientists estimate the number of U.S. dialects range from a basic three - New England, Southern and Western/General America - to 24 or more". I remember as a child not knowing what a "Bronx cheer" was. I must have been 8 or 9 when I discovered it was a raspberry. DuncanHill (talk) 00:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Except for dialects (location), there are sociolects (class) and ethnolects (ethnicity), though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:27, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Go ahead and..." sounds southern to me (US English speaker). "Take and..." is more Bahston. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The most egregious use is the way the character Bill Lumbergh uses it in wikiquote:Office Space. I almost forgot... I'm also going to need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too. Here it functions as a command. Card Zero (talk) 10:30, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pythagoras

Can anyone tell me the literal meaning of the name "Pythagoras" (assuming there is one)? My Google Fu has failed me. Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:29, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Everything I can find with cursory google search indicates it's a combination of Pythios (as in Apollo Pythios) and the Greek word agora which means a gathering or marketplace. Though looking at the page for Delphi (which Apollo Pythios is the patrod deity of) I see that Delphi was known in a legend as Pytho (which involved the serpent Python which in turn results in Pythia being the title of the high priestess of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Most of these articles mention that these pyth- names are derived from the verb πύθω meaning "to rot", "which refers to the sickly sweet smell from the decomposing body of the monstrous Python after it was slain by Apollo." 13:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC) Amstrad00 (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to both Aristoxenus (as cited by Diogenes Laërtius, Lives of the Eminent Philosophers) and Porphyry of Tyre (The Life of Pythagoras), Pythagoras learned much from the Pythia, named as Themistokleia by Diogenes Laërtius^[4] and Aristokleia by Porphyry.^[5] Another thing is that according to some legends his mother was named Pythaïs, and that the Pythia prophesied to Pythaïs about her future eminent child.

I can't help but thinking that this is all etymology-after-the-fact. ‑‑Lambiam 20:54, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks guys. Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:44, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I do wish for a list of common name-elements in Greek! —Tamfang (talk) 20:28, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thailand / Thai language audio translation request

Hi, if you speak Thailand language or possess a tool that automatically translates, could you please watch https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1HtrBk7t5i/ and tell me how they discovered the e-waste. Was it a 'routine' or 'random' inspection. How does it work. How often do they do it. Thank you :-) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 21:14, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And on what date did they do the inspection and discover the illegal e-waste? Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 21:15, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

They said it was part of their ongoing surveillance and risk profiling, but did not elaborate. They said they have periodically found violations, but this one is the largest seizure this year so far. No daye was mentioned. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:42, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This English-language news article reports that it was "found Tuesday in a random inspection". ‑‑Lambiam 11:28, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To all you Nordic guys named Sven: If your name can be Sven, then can my name be Eght? (Also, why did Reddit shadow-suspend my account over just this post there?)

Is Eght a valid name anywhere in the world much like how Sven is in the Nordics?

What if I made Eght my nickname only for when I'm around guys named Sven?

Where and in which countries is Eght a normal given name? To all of you named Sven: If you met a guy *actually* named Eght, what would your reactions be like?

S(e)ven crossposts, in order to keep up with the Seven / 7 / Sven theme:

r/NameNerds: r/namenerds/s/gDLfQYlJpU
r/NordicCountries: r/Nordiccountries/s/6Ut24lbU6v
r/Norway: r/Norway/s/23FiXcvjiI
r/Sweden: r/sweden/s/VPYE1ognh7
r/Unket: (A technical difficulty kept me from posting there.)
r/Finland: r/Finland/s/3LOvuBrKYo
r/Denmark: r/Denmark/s/tDMecViB3J

---

ADDENDUM for the Wikipedia reference desk: Why did Reddit shadow-suspend my account and remove every last comment and post I've ever made on it, just for making 7 cross-posts of the same above topic?

Now that my username there cannot be used anymore, it was u/TheresJustNoMoney. I don't mind sharing my username elsewhere like here now, for that very reason. --2600:100A:B054:FB6F:DC3A:927F:EEE9:84B2 (talk) 21:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Sven is unrelated to 7. In the languages mentioned in that article's introduction, 7 is da:Syv, no:sju, and nn:sju. Nyttend (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Although the question is borderline trolling, similar to asking an anglophone how strange it is that someone could be named Otto when it means "eight" in Italian, I feel like mentioning the 'Golden Age' comics creator Sven Elvén. Not his birth name, but it does at least appear to be older than the convenience store chain. [6], [7], [8] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:02, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And please nobody even try to check the Swedish word for "six". -- 2A04:CEC0:C019:2D34:B3C6:560:A5D5:551F (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Many lame puns have been made in the language. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 17

威寧彝族回族苗族自治縣

How do I interpret the name of Weining Yi, Hui, and Miao Autonomous County? Is this an autonomous county by the name of "Weining Yi, Hui, and Miao", or is it a Yi, Hui, and Miao Autonomous County by the name of "Weining", or is it the Weining Yi section of "Hui and Miao Autonomous County"? The article title sounds like the first option, the infobox sounds like the second, and the first sentence of the main text sounds like the third. Nyttend (talk) 08:15, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Must be the second of your options. Weining (威宁) is the name of the main town and county seat; "Autonomous County" (zìzhìxiàn, 自治縣) is its administrative status; and "Yi" (彝), Hui (回) and "Miao" (苗) are three ethnicities presumably living there, who are the subjects of its autonomy status. Note that in the long name you quoted in the title, the three characters for "Yi", "Hui" and "Miao" are each followed by 族 (zú), the term for "ethnicity" or "tribe". The shorter version of the county name given in the infobox is just "威宁县", Wēiníng xiàn, i.e. "Weining county" (县 and 縣 being the simplified and traditional versions of the same word). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:27, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'd parse it symbolically as "Weining (Yi + Hui + Miao) Autonomous County", until 1954 officially just "Weining County" (威宁县), still a common abbreviation. The French Wikipedia uses "le xian yi, hui et miao de Weining", meaning "the Yi, Hui and Miao autonomous county of [i.e. "known as"] Weining" – rather explicitly the second option. BTW, the character 縣 in the Chinese spelling in the heading of this section is the traditional one. The official spelling in China uses the simplified character 县 also for the full name. ‑‑Lambiam 11:10, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thousands separator apostrophe in English

I just discovered Guns, germs and steel. A short history of everybody for the last 13'000 years. Is there any anglophone context (other than learners wrongly importing foreign conventions) in which an apostrophe is used as a thousands separator? Thousands separator mentions the use of an apostrophe but doesn't say in which regions or languages it's used. Nyttend (talk) 20:40, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find an Anglophone example, but see Decimal_separator#Examples_of_use. DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The book covers that I can find (for the original and later UK paperback editions) have "13,000", with a comma as the separator. Where did you see an apostrophe in the UK subtitle?

According to the German Wikipedia, Switzerland uses either a nonbreaking space or a (straight) apostrophe for the thousands separator. The instructions given by the Federal Chancellery of Switzerland for the preparation of official texts in French explicitly forbid the use of the apostrophe,^[9] thereby implying it is used. ‑‑Lambiam 23:04, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

C++ uses apostrophe, maybe because other characters would have caused problems. The feature was added in C++14 and it was important to not break pre-existing code. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:13, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it is clear from the context that a number is a natural number, writing e.g. 12345 as either "12.345" or "12,345" is asking for trouble also in texts in plain natural language. ‑‑Lambiam 12:16, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When the context is the English language in day-to-day settings, "12 345" would be confusing. I've never seen any usage other than "12,345" in English texts written for day-to-day purposes; "12.345" is restricted to non-English usage, and "12 345" is restricted to technical contexts and discussions about punctuation. Nyttend (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. However, I think we're still unclear about the apostrophe version you mentioned in the OP. Our article says the title of the work mentioned is "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (subtitled A Short History of Everybody for the Last 13,000 Years in Britain)...". The redirect you used was created by a sockpuppet (one of literally hundreds) of a banned user. A cursory glance suggests they got interested in that book for a day in 2016. If that's the only place you've seen the apostrophe number separator, I think you can safely ignore it. Matt Deres (talk) 18:58, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Le Sueur

Among other things, Le Sueur is a brand of canned vegetables in the US, but it is also a not-that-rare French surname. Per Wiktionary, wikt:sueur means sweat or perspiration. Is that really the origin of this name? Asking because of the canned vegetables. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:09, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The canned vegetables are named for Le Sueur, Minnesota, where the canning company was located, which was named for a French explorer. I doubt that the surname came from the word for sweat, since that's feminine in gender (la sueur). I'm finding some indication that its an occupational surname from an obsolete term meaning "shoemaker". Deor (talk) 00:36, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If, on that first disambiguation page you linked, you click under Other uses on the link Le Sueur (surname), you will find a list of Articles about people with that surname. At the bottom is a collapsed box which, when expanded, gives an array of "Surnames associated with the occupations of cobbler / shoemaker / cordwainer", including in the Romance (languages) section "Surnames ultimately from Latin "sutor": . . . Le Sueur". [Latin "sutor" means 'shoemaker', according to my Latin dictionaries.]

This suggests that the modern French word meaning "sweat" has a different origin. (Or maybe was derived from sueur because cobblers were thought to sweat a lot, or something.)

The second line under that Other uses section refers to the canned vegetable brand in question as being associated with the Green Giant brand, whose own page mentions that both originate from Le Sueur, Minnesota, named in honour of Pierre-Charles Le Sueur. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 00:27, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, my comment was inserted above yours, even though I posted it after yours. (I've had this happen before, perhaps because I started my comment before you did but dawdled around and didn't finish it until after you posted.) The French word for sweat comes from Lat. sudor, not from sutor. Deor (talk) 01:18, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've seen this sort of thing happen before, too. No worries. This case is a good example of the fact that words and names (place or personal) which appear identical now may have converged from different forms in the past, which is why so much 'folk etymology' (modern or ancient) is often mistaken. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The French suffix -eur forms masculine agent nouns from the stem of the present participle of verbs. For example, tuer ("to kill'), present participle tuant, gives rise to the noun tueur ("killer"). So le sueur meaning "the sweater" (sweating person) would have been a regular devolopment from the verb suer, suant, but was possibly inhibited by the formation of the feminine noun sueur from Latin sudor (which is masculine in Latin; for the reverse gender swap, we have Latin feminine arbor with the French masculine descendant arbre). ‑‑Lambiam 12:02, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Side note, I suspect the posting order may have to do with when you started writing your response, rather than when you posted it. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:25, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hanks & Hodges A Dictionary of Surnames (Oxford 1988) connects it to German Sauter, "a shoemaker or cobbler (rarely a tailor)". —Tamfang (talk) 20:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A word which has only survived as a family name and according to de:Sauter (Familienname) disappeared in its original meaning in the 15th century. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The German name seems to be an early Latin borrowing rather than a cognate, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:29, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. 2601:644:8581:75B0:8F01:9261:FCD:4BB9 (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 20

Dog knows dog

I searched hours but didn't find any specific useful information about its origin. I will appreciate any help. Omidinist (talk) 17:42, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it was original, but the earliest use I found, with "dog" in its literal sense, referring to man's best friend, is here, from 2018. The next use is from the same author, less than a year later. The first use I saw with "dog" in the sense of "all men are dogs" is in a comment posted in 2022 on this Facebook video. Then the sense is that of it takes one to know one, with an echo of dog eat dog. ‑‑Lambiam 20:36, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.Omidinist (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 22

False titles and noun adjuncts

Isn't a false title just an instance of noun adjunct? If so, why can't I find any sources which describe false titles as noun adjuncts other than this answer on Stack Exchange? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 08:44, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at "false title", it strikes me that it's misleading. Saying that "convicted bomber McVeigh" is a "false title" ignores the fact that it's not capitalized, and it's not a title; it's merely descriptive. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:23, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation is a null issue in spoken language. Denying that it's a title is the nub of the issue: it operates exactly as if it were a title, whatever the author's intention was. Hence "pseudo-title". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:24, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"...predominantly found in journalistic writing", per the article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:04, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yet I hear it all the time on TV and radio news reports, whether from local or international sources. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:56, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And Time magazine used to capitalize them, so that it would include locutions like "Editor William Shawn" or "Movie Star John Wayne". Deor (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

or even Football Enthusiast Joseph Sixpack. —Tamfang (talk) 02:18, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This trope has been highlighted in criticisms of the writing style of Dan Brown, who is inclined to introduce characters with paragraphs beginning something like "Eminent phlebotomist Fred Smith walked down the corridor . . . ." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.154.147 (talk) 13:38, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

None of these answer my question. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 13:39, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It would be reasonable to describe a false title as a noun adjunct. Anecdotally, I only see words described as noun adjuncts when they modify common nouns, and I can't think of noun adjuncts that modify proper nouns that aren't false titles. A deep dive into this topic is complicated by the level of discourse about false titles, which has been stuck for a long time at the "are they acceptable?" level. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:10, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

These are not titles, they are merely identifiers. The notion that they somehow are titles, sounds like OR, maybe by someone who does not speak English natively. One could argue that the "false titles" article is a POV fork from "noun adjuncts". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:03, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How could one argue that? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:04, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

BB, these are commonly called false titles. You're free to disagree with the experts here, but it'd be better to present it as an unorthodox opinion of yours than as an accepted fact. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard of it until this question came up, and doubt it's in "common" usage. It's merely descriptive. Like terrorist bomber McVeigh as opposed to barber shop owner McVeigh or librarian McVeigh, as a hypothetical. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's clearly the intent. But the absence of "the" makes a difference. "Actor George Wendt" is identical in form to "President Donald Trump" and "Sergeant Joe Bloggs" and "Mayor Quimby" and "Fire Chief Bill Smith". That's why, in this construction, "Actor" has the form of a title, like President, Sergeant, Mayor and Fire Chief. In the way things used to be done, people talked of "the actor George Wendt", which was clearly solely descriptive. But then they dropped the article, and this had the effect of making the meaning technically ambiguous: it could be a title, or it could be merely descriptive. We know that the latter is the case, but from the viewpoint of a grammarian the wording suggests a title. Hence "pseudo-title". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:09, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In an English compound noun whose first component is a noun, such as alcohol abuse, baby boom and cable car, the main stress is on the first component. The main stress in Dandy Dave is on the second component. Therefore I think we should not classify Dandy in this combination as a noun adjunct. ‑‑Lambiam 21:56, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I believe they're considered appositives and not noun adjuncts because removing "convicted bomber" from "convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh" (i.e. just "Timothy McVeigh") does not change the meaning of the phrase. Nardog (talk) 04:47, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps an example is the usage in the USA when referring to our British Dear Leader as "Prime Minister Starmer", whereas the usual form over here would be "the prime minister, Sir Kier Starmer". Alansplodge (talk) 19:01, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Four languages (medium/learned) by 9th grade in countries

Hello,

which countries have four languages overall (medium and or learned) by 8th grade of school.

Kind regards Sarcelles (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean that, within the country but perhaps in different regions of it or for pupils of differing family backgrounds, four languages will have been taught (or taught in) in various combinations of two or three (in which case Switzerland and Singapore seem likely examples), or that all pupils are usually taught/taught in a total of four languages?

(For the large majority of the world who, like me, are unfamiliar with the US Age/Grade system, I gather that 9th Grade corresponds to about 14–15 years old.)

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.154.147 (talk) 18:32, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are several countries with four or more official languages, but then, their distribution is mostly areal, and all languages aren't widely used in education. However, it might still be common for speakers to learn four or so languages with passable fluency, just for general communication in daily life. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:56, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the Netherlands, alongside the official language Dutch, English, German and French are all mandatory at school. Those are the official languages of the neighbouring countries (if you count the UK as neighbouring; there are ferry connections). Schools may offer additional languages and for some there are official exams; my school offered Latin, Greek and Russian. In the province Fryslân the regional language Frisian may be offered. I think the situation is similar in Belgium, where Dutch, French and German are all official and English is too important to ignore. I'm not sure about Switzerland, but I expect everybody learns German, French, Italian and English. PiusImpavidus (talk) 16:03, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another reason for Nigel Powers' hatred of the Dutch: language ~~one-upmanship~~ three-upmanship. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 24

Oxford English Dictionary Third Edition

I had two questions about the OED 3rd edition:

Is there an estimated time when it will be finished?
According to the Wikipedia entry, it seems that this edition will never be printed. If it did appear in book form, how big would it be (either in its current state or its estimated completion?). 76.7.193.12 (talk) 02:17, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody knows. As stated above, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:01, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

However, we may observe that (as stated in Oxford English Dictionary) OED3 is expected to be completed by 2037, and to double the size of the dictionary. (Personally, I would expect both estimates to be exceeded, but I should not speculate.) Edit: OED2 in print filled 20 volumes. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 23:22, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 25

Ultrarelativistic

If hyper- or ultrarelativistic is the formal or technical term used to describe something that is travelling very close to lightspeed, what would be the opposite of this; what would be the formal or technical term used to describe something that is faster than lightspeed?

If no such term exists in real-life sciences due to the impossibility of the feat, for the sake of let's say, a fictional work; what would a proper term for energy, objects, electromagnetic radiation, etc. that travel faster than light would be constructed like (for example, would it make more sense to borrow from Latin or Greek)? 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One term that's been used is superluminal. See the article Faster-than-light. Deor (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard of that term, but I assumed it was an invention by science-fiction creatives, rather than coined by any scholar, physicist, or scientist of some repute. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The OED's "earliest evidence" of it is in the writings of Karl Popper in 1959. I too would have guessed it to be earlier, and possibly from a Science Fiction author, but the latter would not make it 'disreputable' – a number of scientifically accepted terms originated in Science Fiction, and of course some SF writers did and do have academic science qualifications and even were/are practicing scientists.

Astronomers were observing apparent faster-than-light motion from as early as 1901, so it would not be surprising if someone had coined the fairly obvious term 'superluminal' well before the 1950s. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.154.147 (talk) 19:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Historical Dictionary of Science Fiction lists a number of terms used in fiction here. I am surprised at the absence of terms using the prefix trans-, such as transwarp in Star Trek. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 19:54, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

transwarp is a recent coinage and not popular among readers or writers of science fiction or even Star Trek fans who are neither, not least because it is more than usually meaningless, even for television technobabble. Orange Mike | Talk 15:19, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also wikt:tachyonic 122.56.85.105 (talk) 03:01, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 27

Usage guides and "It's me"

Usage guides tell people it is incorrect (not just disliked by formal grammarians, but incorrect) to say "It's me" because "is" is a linking verb. Do these people understand that we cannot control how language is used in practice?? Are there any sites online that are flexible enough to ensure they're not saying that the rule that we use subject pronouns after linking verbs is followed by good speakers even in everyday talk?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:12, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are the usage guides you're reading 100 years old? Any modern guide will tell you that the use of objective pronouns after "to be" is now practically universal. Zacwill (talk) 16:42, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Zacwill, I find them by doing Google searches on sites like Grammar Monster. Here's a page that really says it is incorrect: https://englishplus.com/grammar/00000021.htm Georgia guy (talk) 17:08, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In general "usage guides" are for written language, not spoken. It would be unusual to say It's me (or It is I, for that matter) in print. --Trovatore (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Usage guides are usually conservative, because writing or saying the technically correct "x" will rarely annoy anyone, while writing/saying the technically incorrect but casually popular "y" may offend a significant number (such as officials, job interviewers, prospective in-laws, etc.) even if only on the unconscious level. In anything beyond so-called "social media", written English is usually expected to be more formal or 'correct' than spoken.

Most if not all languages have different registers of speech, 'ascending' from how one might speak to fellow youths in the street, through friends, parents, work colleagues, employers, speech audiences, and (say) judges, perhaps culminating in royalty. These registers can include different grammatical constructions, so saying "It's me" (and similar locutions) is appropriate at many levels at which "It is I" would be laughable, whereas saying "It's me" might be less appropriate than "It is I" (or similar) when, say, getting knighted. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.154.147 (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Notice how even in this thread, nobody considers the form "it's I". Why? Because it would be a mix of registers. "It is I" is formal, "it's me" is informal, but "it's I" is just not used at all, except perhaps for comical effect. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:12, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"It is I, Leclerc!" DuncanHill (talk) 11:49, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So if you can't say either "it's me" or "it's I", how can you say it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:32, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's-a-me! ---Sluzzelin talk 12:34, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can say either: the former (though incorrect by strict grammatical rules) will sound normally acceptable in anything but very formal speech, the latter (though correct by those rules) will sound odd, suggestive of not-native English or an attempt at 19th-century style.

Grammatical 'rules' are an after-the-fact attempt to analyse and systematise how people speak and write (a long and ongoing process of evolution-by-consensus); they are not some Platonic ideal from which speech and writing stem. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.154.147 (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

L'État, c'est moi. If it was good enough for Louis XIV, it's good enough for moi. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:26, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the Indo-European languages with grammatical case I'm familiar with, the nominative case is used for both the subject and the predicative expression. So this shows once again that English has lost its case system. Which doesn't mean that Germans normally say Es ist ich. They turn it around: Ich bin's "I'm it." Or if they want to emphasise the it-part: Das bin ich "That am I." And so do the Dutch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:05, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 29