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Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Elijah Joyce

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Salvio 10:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Elijah Joyce

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Draft:Elijah Joyce (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Probable autobiography of high school student-athlete. Has already been speedily deleted as A7, no credible claim of significance, but re-created by author in draft space. No more likely to become an article within next six months than within past 24 hours (when it was deleted). Ordinary lack of notability is not a reason for deletion of drafts, but no credible claim of significance means that keeping a draft serves no constructive purpose. No likelihood of satisfying general notability or sports notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just wanting to point out that it is no longer exactly a "copy/paste". I will continue improving the draft, so just end this stupid deletion process.CurrentWeather (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete then by nominator based on point by User:TomStar81, because it reduces the degree to which there is a tendentiousness problem. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for 2 reasons. First: This is a draft and I should be allowed to continue working to improve it.... (Should I go and start the deletion process for your drafts? No...). Second: Joyce is also on a Competitive swim team and other things. For example, Joyce has been a student Ambassador through People to People. Yeah...Let me continue working on the article. I can't make a perfect article in a week, so this is just stupid. People, use common Sense. CurrentWeather (talk) 10:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't understand why people are so focused to prove why a person doesn't have notability before anyone can say otherwise. You should be more focused on deleting articles like Draft:Poundz which has 0 content. Oh, but wait a second...The person has 6 months to edit and work on the draft. And yet mine had 12 hours before being suggested for deletion. Honestly, if this is actually deleted before I can improve it a lot, I will go around and start the deletion process for just about every draft out there. People shouldn't try to delete drafts that are less than 6 months old UNLESS it has stupid content and stuff. CurrentWeather (talk) 11:10, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
CurrentWeather Threatening to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point will not help you here and if you were to pursue that you would end up being blocked and unable to do anything on Wikipedia. Users are allowed to propose the deletion of articles that they feel merit deletion. Drafts are not immune from review for deletion. It is up to you to make a case that your draft doesn't merit deletion. 331dot (talk) 11:13, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have struck your comment as it was replied to, to preserve the logical flow of the discussion. 331dot (talk) 11:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A high school athlete breaking school records in events (NOT state records, or national records, or world records) has no potential for being notable. School-age athletes have competed at Olympics - and earned medals - which made them notable. Does not apply to Joyce. Nothing has been provided outside swimming that might establish notability. David notMD (talk) 11:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Unless there are sources well beyond the local ones cited so far this is not going to demonstrate notability, or ever become a valid article. But it is at least possible that such sources exist or will exist, and lack of demonstrated notability is not a reason for deletion. I gather that the creator has denied that this is an autobiography, but admits a personal connection to the subject. But for purposes of MfD, none of that should matter either. This is factual in tone, not promotional, and the creator should be allowed to work on it and attempt to makie it into a valid article, although I doubt very much if that will be possible. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 14:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Sorry, CurrentWeather, but I do not think this article is suitable for Wikipedia, even in draft space. I think it would be good for you to find a sports celebrity that has received a lot of coverage on ESPN or another of those big name sports sources but for some reason does not have a Wikipedia article on it. Aasim 16:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is an article on a high school athlete, entirely sourced by the high school newspaper. The notability fail is obvious on many levels.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just wanting to let you know that I addressed that in a previous comment. It isn't only the high school newspaper. Metro Buckeye Conference is a major Ohio High School meet that has multiple sports involved. That is a source also. Mostly it is currently the high school newspaper, but not entirely. Just wanted to make that known. CurrentWeather (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is a draft, and the creator says they want to work on it. Notability only applies to article space. Even if the prospect of this person being determined to be notable is low, there is still a chance. 331dot (talk) 17:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Userfy The primary contributor wants to work on this, the community wants it out of the mainspace, and it looks to me like the best way to accomplish that is to userfy the material. That should satisfy all parties in this MFD by allowing everyone to get what they want. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:14, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    TomStar81 It isn't in mainspace, it has already been deleted from there. It is now in draft space, as per WP:DRAFT. Draftspace is not very much different from a userspace draft. The differences are:
    1. Draft space is subject to G13. Usewrspoace drafts are not, unless placed under thr WP:AfC project.
    2. Drafts implicitly invitem otehrs to work on the content. Userspace drafts do not, without an explicit invite.
    3. A user may ask for the speedy deletion of any page in his or her own userpsace. A draft author may ask for speedy deletion only if s/he is the only significant contributor.
    So I don't see much point in moving content from draft space to user space, which is what a "userfy" result would do. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: (Non-administrator comment) There is relevant discussion about this at WP:THQ#How long does a speedy deletion normally take? and WP:THQ#Where can I make a complaint to the admins?.
    I think this is a pretty clear case of WP:TOOSOON for an article, but I'm not so sure whether that also should apply to a draft. Unless this is clearly a WP:PROMO page, it seems OK to let the draft exist on the condition that the creator doesn't try to WP:MOVE it to the WP:MAINSPACE himself, but submits it for WP:AFC review instead. It would also helpful if the creator could clarify the reasons why he thinks the subject will come to meet WP:NSPORTS or WP:BIO; in other words, is there something that is pretty much guaranteed to happen within the next six months or so which will make the subject Wikipedia notable? WP:CRYSTAL types of reasons are not sufficient, but something specific and major that is certain to happen (e.g. the subject has been selected to compete in the next Olympics by US swimming, but it just hasn't officially announced yet).
    If all that's going to happen is that more high school accomplishments are added which are being supported by more citations to a high shcool newspaper, then the "draft" bascially has no chance of ever becoming an article and will just end up being rejected (not declined) by AfC and then most likely deleted per WP:G13 or WP:MFD. If the creator intends to just try and postpone the inevitable by adding empty sections titled "Student Ambassador" and "Swimming Career with the Countryside Torpedoes", which just from the names seem to be more high-school related content, then there's no point in keeping this. The creator can come back at a later date a create a proper article after the subject is no longer TOOSOON. Finally, userfying something that has zero prospects of becoming an article will just end up with the userfied version being deleted per WP:U5. There has to be something about this that at least makes it seem that this "draft" goes beyond WP:NOTWEBHOST and if that's the case, then there's no reason to userfy it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Draft is where it belongs. Nothing notable now. The article will never make it past NPP so no harm in an editor trying to work on it. I agree it is WP:TOOSOON which is why it is a draft now. I acknowledge that WP:TOOSOON is an essay. Lightburst (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:YOUNGATH. Unless you have national newspapers that aren't in the region, this is mostly a practice article to promote a fellow student at the school using WP:ROUTINE local newspapers and student newspapers. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is a draft, and the creator says they want to work on it. Too early to judge notability and I am inclined to allow the editor time to establish. Lightburst (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks you Marchjuly. Mistake. Lightburst (talk) 04:13, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


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