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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Werner Raffetseder

[edit]
Werner Raffetseder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Blatant autobiography by Dr. mullah (talk · contribs). Does not meet WP:CREATIVE. bender235 (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Serious? --bender235 (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He is a multimedia talent who has been published numerous times, has appeared on television a number of times, he has won an award, he has setup an organisation to promote what he is most interested in, he even organised a Concorde flight so that an eclipse could be observed for a longer period of time. How much notability do you need?  Nipsonanomhmata  (Talk) 10:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Publishing your own books does not merit notability (anyone can publish a book). Appearing on TV does not merit notability (or is every talk show guest notable now?). Winning the Theodor-Körner-Preis might be factor, but it's not enough. If Raffetseder is such a renowned "author, photographer and multimedia artist", where are the press reports, the reviews, the critial acclaims? WP:ARTIST requires: "The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums." Neither of these criteria are meet by Werner Raffetseder. --bender235 (talk) 13:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. bender235 is right: anyone can publish a book as a self-publisher, in a private publishing venture. Raffetseder’s “Solar Eclipse” book, however, was published by Hugendubel, one of Germany’s top publishing houses. It appeared in 3 different versions and was powerfully promoted, even by the German Bertelsmann and Austrian Donauland book clubs. Anyone can? I remember, this book was presented in a number of German and Austrian TV stations, and countless book reviews appeared in prominent German and Austrian gazettes, supposedly also in Swiss. If you need details, I'll check: not in the internet, of course (for 1999 that would be useless!), but in libraries. The eclipse-book was a top seller: number 1 (!!!) in Germany (see ZEIT best selling list August 1999), as was his book “Leben im Müll” (A Life in Rubbish, 1994), for which he was awarded the "Theodor Körner Prize" by former Austrian president Dr. Thomas Klestil. Successive reportages about the author and his 20 years of worldwide eclipse experiences appeared in Austria’s largest daily (Kronenzeitung: “Und immer wieder geht die Sonne auf“, 8 August 1999, of which I saved a copy) and in other daily and weekly newspapers. Raffetseder’s best known multimedia-projects (Asian Trilogy, A Life in Rubbish, Total Eclipse) have definitely been based on long term research, two of them in a number of different countries - United Festivals follows this pattern. I remember him stating in a newspaper interview (Kleine Zeitung?) just very shortly after the 1999 eclipse that he planned to leave the country for further research. So don’t wonder that at present his traces are hardly to be found in the internet: only very few print media uploaded their “stories” to the web 12 years ago. (But don't worry: if you want, I'll find out all that print stuff in libraries, I'm a retiree...). And, please, allow me a final consideration about comparing the average guest of a TV talk show with an all-round multimedia talent that is Mr. Raffetseder: doesn’t it make a difference if people are invited to TV by the dozen to talk about beauty stuff and divorce or if a highly creative person is invited to a TV newsroom (ORF-news: “Zeit im Bild”) or to a TV magazine studio (ZDF: “Mittagsmagazin"), where especially his expert knowledge is wanted? --IslandHopper (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. In Austria the discussed artist has been known since the 80ies for a variety of creative actions that were presented in the media. Just very recently (Jan & Feb 2011) his public presence was not to be ignored. --81.10.146.221 (talk) 18:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please name any source (English or German) to verify Raffetseder's "public presence"? Google News yields no results, except for a 4-year old interview about one of his books. --bender235 (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check details, may take some time. --81.10.146.221 (talk) 03:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, Raffetseder appeared in Austrian TV, ORF channel 2, on 31st January and 1st February 2011 being interviewed about variations of living cultural heritage. The interview was given in the documentary film “Unter die Haut: Körper . Formen . Kunst” ("Under the Skin: Bodies . Form . Art") by renowned Austrian filmmaker Gerald Teufel, who has several times co-produced with the interviewee before his time out of country. Raffetseder’s 10 years of field work abroad may be responsible for his minor internet presence, even though his latest 1-hour radio interview given on 5 Feb 2011, 14.00-15.00, is to be found online: Radio Orange94.0 (scroll and click loudspeaker symbol). Raffetseder’s latest print reportage “G’standene Mander”, also displaying living cultural heritage, was published in the Feb 2011-edition of the SERVUS-magazine (pages 88-96), a brand-new monthly released since December 2010 by Dietrich Mateschitz’s Red Bull Media House. Print copies available there, film copy at ORF. --81.10.146.221 (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So all we have are some radio interviews, and a short article in a Red Bull corporate magazine. That is very little. I still don't see any notability. --bender235 (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to be accurate, within less than a month, we have one TV interview, one 60 minutes radio interview and one 9 pages colourful print reportage (2-4 pages is average here) in a high-circulation and top magazine, which is incidentially owned by Red Bull, but according to editorial, has been created to promote traditional cultures in the Alps-Adriatic Sea-area (Bavaria, Austria, South Tyrol, Italy). I think that’s pretty notable if we consider that these people have just completed vast field works to launch their campaign as a contribution to safeguard intangible cultural heritage. I am curious what's coming next. --81.10.146.221 (talk) 05:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Interviews in regional Austrian radio and TV stations do not make this person notable for the English-speaking world. The actual criterias can be found here. And by the way, anonymous user from Linz, Austria, why don't you create an account? --bender235 (talk) 09:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Extra input: 1) Radio ORANGE is located in Austria’s capital city of Vienna and heard worlwide through internet livestream. 2) ORF is not a regional but the Austrian national broadcasting network. 3) The discussed artist has acquired credit and relevance long before his present activities, namely in 1999 when he became known to whole Germany through countless TV and radio appearances there, promoting his „Total Eclipse“ project, that was first presented at the German Museum in München and later at the Technical Museum in Vienna. I suggest sceptics to contact these institutions and all the main German broadcasting stations (ARD, ZDF, BR, SAT 1…) where the guy appeared on screen between April and September 1999. Or maybe easier, get a copy of German high-circulation BILD-Zeitung from 2-11 August 1999, where his portrait and texts appear in 10 successive issues just before the eclipse. --VuestraMerced (talk) 13:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's put things in perspective: Radio Orange 94.0 is a small Vienna community radio (yes, you can here it worldwide through the internet, just like John Doe's blog can be read around the globe). SERVUS is a corporate magazine by Red Bull with a circulation of barely 50,000 copies. And then there's the short appearance in this documentary on tattoo artists (BTW: is each of the artist in that documentary worth of a Wikipedia article now?). How in the world is that supposed to merit a Wikipedia entry? --bender235 (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, bender235. Sorry for the confusion. I am no sock puppet: you advised me to create an account and I did; that’s all. To put things further in perspective: 1) Radio Orange 94.0 is a local Vienna radio AND a well known meeting place of top Austrian people. Beyond Raffetseder let me only mention film directors Michael Glawogger (Workingman’s Death, Megacities) and Oscar nominated Götz Spielmann who showed up there for interviews. 2) With the SERVUS magazine, Red Bull has launched a top seller: 50.000 copies were planned for the first edition, now – 4 editions later – must be double or even more. Anyway, 50.000 copies sold in Austria correspond to about 400.000 sold in UK: isn‘t that something? 3) For most of the tattooed and pierced people who made statements about how and why in Gerald Teufel‘s ducumentary film, this was probably their very first time on air. For Raffetseder, after countless radio and TV interviews in so many different stations, this is routine. And you may have noticed: Raffetseder did not face the camera to show off tattoos or piercings, but as the founder of United Festivals (that will most hopefully not be deleted!) and as an expert to talk about special forms of body modification practised among South East Asian tribeswomen and during a Hindu festival, with significant pictures of the United Festivals world archive being shown. And by the way, Raffetseder's comments were far from blah-blah: both issues made their way into the English Wikipedia (please, see lemmata: „Kayan Lahwi“ and „Thaipusam“). --VuestraMerced (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Whether it is sock-puppetry or meat-puppetry, it's just highly suspicious when a number of new editors come along just to comment on an AfD, while the article's original author (Dr. mullah alias Raffetseder) disappeared.
And back to topic: it doesn't matter who else "talked" to that Vienna community radio. Just like not every person with a Twitter account is notable just because Barack Obama has an account, too.
Let's not get into details that much. Simple question: if this artist was so well-known, where's the international media coverage? I'm not talking about a Time Magazine cover story, but at least some mention in a notable German-language paper like FAZ? --bender235 (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I'll find out some examples for you. Is Monday alright? How long does the discussion continue? --VuestraMerced (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undecided He's certainly got around, and appears to have taken some not bad pics, but the article is blatantly promotional and unencyclopaedic. Will look at refs when slightly less tired. Peridon (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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