Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waywords and Meansigns

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Huon (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Waywords and Meansigns

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No evidence of notability; only one clear WP:RS (the Guardian), which has only a paragraph about it. Involvement of Mike Watt, etc. not confirmed by a reliable source. Created by a WP:SPA; prod was disputed.. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 02:03, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Article clearly has a number of notable musicians involved. Additional sources added since entry was originally flagged for deletion. Finnegans Wake is known for it's obscurity in the mainstream but dedicated cult following. Both Guardian article and http://theconversation.com/the-amateurs-age-of-unriddling-finnegans-wake-on-stage-38498 speak to the massive history of 'amateur' contributions to Finnegans Wake scholarship.The references given -- Punk News, Jambands.com, Grateful Web, James Joyce Centre -- are all websites that speak to considerable subculture audiences. There are numerous musicians involved in the project who are considered notable by Wikipedia: Mike Watt, David Kahne, Hayden Chisholm, Simon Underwood, Mary Lorson. Psychoanalymass (talk) 03:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we know that grad students everywhere are excited about Finngan's Wake. This may become notable, but the notability isn't here yet. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 04:17, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28music%29#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, instrumentalist, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria: 6. Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. For composers and performers outside mass media traditions: 5. Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture. Of the musicians involved, they are each notable because of their involvement in particular subculture genres (punk, avant jazz, jambands, James Joyce/Irish lit). Each has been noted for their involvement in this project by sources that are notable within those subcultures (Grateful Web, Punk News, etc) Psychoanalymass (talk) 20:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 06:37, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails GNG. Only a handful of mentions, even though one said it was debuting a week ago. —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
do not delete project has clearly been noted in numerous sources, in many different fields -- literature, joyce studies, music, etc -- As referenced above, according to Wikipedia's guidelines for notability amongst musical acts: A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, instrumentalist, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria...an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. This project contains way more than 2 notable musicians!! and there is ample evidence supporting this (the article has numerous citations...) Psychoanalymass (talk) 17:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously as the person who created this Wiki page I have a vested interest in its success, so at the risk of repeating myself one to many times, I will again summarize why I believe Waywords and Meansigns to be worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. In the month or so that this page has existed, I have added numerous new sources to support and develop the page. These additions occurred after the page was initially suggested for deletion, and now this article has more sources cited than many other newly created Wikipedia articles (articles which are, for better or for worse, not contested). While is true that these sources only include a handful of mainstream sources, when combined to the number of subculture-specific sources -- doubly significant given that this project is notable chiefly because of its subculture prominence -- the cumulative plethora of sources do reliably confirm that this is in fact (1) a real musical project and (2) there numerous notable persons involved. The Wikipedia guidelines state that a musical ensemble is notable if contains two or more notable musicians; Waywords and Meansigns clearly meets this criteria. Psychoanalymass (talk) 16:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Mills, Billy (2015-04-28). "Finnegans Wake – the book the web was invented for". theguardian.com. Archived from the original on 2015-05-31. Retrieved 2015-05-31.
  The article notes:
  
  Another Wake project that has been made possible by digital technology is taking shape over at Waywords and Meansigns. The musicians involved in this project are putting together a collaborative musical version of the whole book with samples from the final work on the site already. The complete setting will be available, free, on 4 May, to mark the 76th anniversary of the book’s first publication.
2. Heflin, James (2015-05-27). "Here Comes Everybody: Setting James Joyce's 'Finnegans Wake' to music". Valley Advocate. Archived from the original on 2015-05-31. Retrieved 2015-05-31.
3. Lederman, Diane (2015-05-15). "Hampshire graduate hopes to lure readers to 'Finnegans Wake' through music". The Republican. Archived from the original on 2015-05-31. Retrieved 2015-05-31.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Waywords and Meansigns to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 06:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I looked through the sources pretty carefully, they're mostly blogs, small, local-interest publications, and there's even a tweet and a facebook post thrown in there. The only source that might give this article a solid claim to notability is the guardian article, and the subject of this article is mentioned only in passing (3 sentences on it) in that source. Not enough to establish notability, which means delete imo. Fyddlestix (talk) 14:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that most of the sources in the article are insufficient to establish notability. But the Valley Advocate and The Republican articles provide the "significant coverage" required by Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. Cunard (talk) 01:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I included the tweet and facebook post not because that constitutes "significant coverage" but because the tweet is by Mike Watt and the Facebook post by Tim Carbone of Railroad Earth. They are making statements that they are involved in the project; therefore direct confirmation these these notable persons are involved. The Guardian, the Republican (Springfield, Massachusetts), and the Valley Advocate are the sources constituting "significant coverage". (Also in the notability guidelines, a subject may be notable if it has received considerable press in alternative sources... Grateful Web, Jambands.com, OpenCulture, and PunkNews are all important news sources in their respective alternative niches.) Psychoanalymass (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I don't see the coverage needed to establish notability. Looking at the two references which Cunard calls out as providing significant coverage, the Valley Advocate is, according to our own article, a free, regional, alternative weekly, with a circulation of 53k. That doesn't sound like ~~a reliable source~~ significant coverage to me. The article from The Republican is on masslive.com, which describes itself as, Western Massachusetts’ most popular local news and information site. I have nothing against local media to provide supporting information, but not as the ~~primary~~ main source to establish notability. I'd be much more impressed if it got coverage in The Boston Globe, for example. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith and Fyddlestix can I ask, what about the guidelines for musical groups notability, wherein the guidelines state that a project is notable if it includes two or more independently notable musicians? Doesn't Waywords and Meansigns qualify as notable on the basis of containing Mike Watt, David Kahne, Simon Underwood, Mary Lorson, Brian Hall, Hayden Chisholm, Barry Smolin and Neil Campbell, as well as Tim Carbone of Railroad Earth, Gareth Flowers of International Contemporary Ensemble, Hinson Calabrese of Tom Fun Orchestra, plus Kio Griffith, Krzysztof Bartnicki, Robert Amos, and Erik Bindervoet? That's a way more than 2 notable people. Psychoanalymass (talk) 21:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also Waywords and Meansigns has received coverage from the Sandusky Register and KPFK--according to Wikipedia's entry on the Register, it has won numerous Associated Press awards, including the AP General Excellence Award award (four times: 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010). KPFK is a major station in the greater Los Angeles area, and one of the five Pacifica Radio stations. Which is to say, both seem like notable and reliable sources. Psychoanalymass (talk) 22:19, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's hard for me to get excited about The Sandusky Register, with a paid circulation of 20k. That, plus the article cited is a reprint of an interview in somebody's blog (I interviewed them for one of my personal blogs and reproduce the interview here: ). That's not the stuff notability is made of. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:45, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith what about my previous comment, regarding the involvement of notable musicians, and Wikipedia's guidelines for music projects being notable if they contain 2 or more independently notable persons? Psychoanalymass (talk) 15:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NMUSIC is a guideline, which says ... may be notable'. I figure if they're notable, there will be articles about them in mainstream press. I don't see any of that, so in my opinion, this doesn't make it. I generally don't like to get into long drawn-out debates on these things. I put my opinion out there, and people are free to agree or not. So, I think we'll have to leave it there. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since you directly responded to my comment, I'm responding to you. The Valley Advocate has editorial oversight according to http://www.valleyadvocate.com/contact/, which satisfies Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. That it has a circulation of 53,000 indicates that it's read by many people (though not as many as a major newspaper like The Boston Globe).
That The Republican is a local Western Massachusetts newspaper does not make it a "primary source". As a newspaper unaffiliated with the subject, it is still a secondary, independent source that satisfies the requirements at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. Furthermore, The Republican article says contributors are based not just in the Western Massachusetts area but worldwide:

Contributors come from all over the world including Hayden Chisholm a saxophonist from New Zealand, Wiel Conen, a composer from Holland Dutch composer, Alan Ó Raghallaigh, an Irish composer, musician and Joyce scholar.
Cunard (talk) 06:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Using the word primary was a poor choice of words on my part. When I wrote, the primary source, I meant, the main, or most significant source. I did not mean it in the sense used by Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources. I have corrected my comment above. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — No evidence of it charting or receiving awards (WP:NALBUM), which is a huge red flag for an album when the publishing artist/producer (Derek Pyle) doesn't have an article (e.g., the basis behind most albums and songs otherwise deleted under WP:CSD#A9). As far as the WP:GNG is concerned, the non-independent sources are scant and news hits aren't numerous. The recency of release combined with the promotional tone doesn't help, either, and pushes the sources that exist more into the realm of press-release coverage—not lasting critical reception or impact. --slakr^\ talk / 00:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article notes, "Waywords and Meansigns debuted on May 4, 2015", so it is unsurprising that it hasn't received any awards. Since you're giving significant weight to Wikipedia:Notability (music) (which WP:NALBUM is a subsection of), I'll direct you to Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Criteria for musicians and ensembles #6, which says that "an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians" is presumed to be notable. This presumption of notability is supported by the sources provided above.
"[L]asting critical reception or impact" is not required by the notability guidelines; see Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is not temporary:

Notability is not temporary; once a topic has been the subject of "significant coverage" in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage.
Cunard (talk) 06:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimandia (talk · contribs), what are your thoughts about two sources published after you participated here (the Valley Advocate and The Republican articles)? Cunard (talk) 06:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.