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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, socks and single purpose accounts duly noted. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 20:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Virtual Air Traffic Flight Simulation Network

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Gamer nonsense and basically an ad for the gamer group. It is basicaly worth a mention in the Flight simulator article, as it is. OBILI ® ± 15:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keeper for sure! If you are going to delete this because it is considered just a game then how about MSN zone? VATSIM is enthuasiast site/community that loves aviation and is modeling the real world airlines they represent. The community has been around for over a decade and has a strong following. They also have a yearly convention at a real hotel. What gamers site has that? The members are very professional and courteous. And some members are actual pilots and aviation employees. I say keep it right where it is with maybe some edits.MarkP1969 20:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bit of Rebuttel Not being critical but the 'deletes' are not showing me convincing evidence, they are just throwing the fact that this is a gaming site as a reason, should we delete the Myspace article or Neopets etc. etc. all popular all have articles all arn't deleted --Rob 13:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please Keep! VATSIM is more than just a group, it is a whole organization with thousands of members. It was even on the front page of the Wall Street Journal! -- 06 October 2006 (1013 UTC)
  • Deffinetly Keep This page is about a notable group in the FS community. It is written reasonably well, there is worse, a lot worse. If IVAO has been deleted I believe that was a mistake and should be rectified. If people believe the tone is 'advertising' then by all means rectifiy it but we have had worse articles about stupider stuff kept. We have articles for games, ranging from big games (Counterstrike) to games that probably few of the community have heard of. The articles Here seem to all be of unkown things and most advertising... using this logic maybe we should delete them --Rob 22:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. The page could use some clean-up, but the group seems fairly notable. 120'000 members and a Wall Street Journal article on their activities, that seems pretty iron-clad to me. The article definitely needs to be 'dumbed down' (it seems written for people who are already familiar with air-traffic control and Flight Simulator, which i am not), but i wouldn't call it 'nonsense'. ~ lav-chan @ 15:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Agree with above, a WSJ article and a member count bigger than Fargo, North Dakota show that this is fairly notable. Does need cleanup, though. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep VATSIM is fairly notable and widely-known, and has been cited in numerous respectable publications (including WSJ; see also VATSIM talk page), and has some ties to real-world airlines, although I agree that the article might need to be rewritten a bit. Canwolf 17:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I really don't see a need for this article. It isn't nonsense, but it is worth a paragraph in the flight simulator article instead of its own. Noodles the Clown 18:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a large and well-known flight simulation network. LukeKolin 21:00, 05 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Ad for flight sim website. Flyin' Leep 21:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I have been using MSFS for about five years and never even heard of this group. The article seems to be only there to get people to get some add on software. Also, it seems to be an article from the Wall Street Journal's news service and not the WSJ itself. One article doen't mean squat. Ponch's Disco 22:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep a well written article that has sources. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 23:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- Longhair\talk 02:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Seeing as the other major provider (IVAO) is gone too there is a rather strong precedent isn't there? Maybe [u]all[/u] other organisations should be deleted too... Babotika 06:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The article reads like it was ripped straight from an advertisement with little change. Wikipedia is not in the business of offering free advertising so this should go, unless it is totally rewritten in a far more objective manner. Even if that's done, its notability remains questionable. --The Way 09:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete All similar organizations were deleted from wikipedia, even IVAO, a similar organization that is larger and created 3 years before VATSIM. Yrtgm 12:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable and well-known in the flight sim community; I agree with Canwolf that the article can be re-written for higher quality. By the way, the "add on software" mentioned above is and always will be completely free. Tim 14:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep VATSIM has been a Flight Simulator community since 1997 when it was created under the name SATCO. It encompasses seven regions around the world with more than 120,000 members. VATSIM has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Wired Magazine, Wired TV, AOPA, PC Pilot, and various other radio programs around the world. The community charges no fees for membership or software. --OnMeds 22:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable and well-known in the FS community. Worth keeping 2208 UTC October 6, 2006
  • Keep VATSIM is a step for future pilots & controllers! Helping them learn and expand their knowledge on Air Traffic Control Operations. They do not make any money, as they are a free organistion. A very educational and exciting hobby for aviation enthusiasits User:ssmithuk2 22:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong KeepVATSIM is educating network, based on real life model.
  • Keep VATSIM is totally free and a very educational and fun place!!
  • Keep Calling VATSIM a "Gamer Ad" is absolute Hogwash. This has been an international community for close to 10 years now with over 120,000 members. There's nothing being sold here except a common love for aviation. --aca301 2235 6 October, 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep; over 100 000 registered members and the prominent online flight simulation network. Article does have some quality problems, but it can be entirely written...Phoenix2 23:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong KeepI have read things on Wiki that I know not alot about and I was a bit confused as I didnt understand the in's of the language so to base a deletion on that is not viable. Vatsim is a great place to meet new friends and the cost can be as little as the game cost and you can choose which you addon and how much YOU want to spend.
  • Strong Keep VATSIM is not just an ad for flight sim, it is a community much on its own dedicated to realistic simulation of ATC. VATSIM does not advertise commercial products (any add-on software required to use Vatsim is 100% free) nor is this article an add for Vatsim, as Vatsim is a NPO. Vatsim has changed my life and thousands of others. Keep it!!! ~~Andras Kiss
  • Keep it - 0040 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep seems to be notable and the membership is north of 100,000. Reliable sources such as the Wall Street Journal have written about it to confirm its notability. A cleanup is needed though. Wikipediarules2221 00:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup and keep - Has at least one reliable source, can probably be salvaged. Needs a lot of hack and slash though. FCYTravis 01:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Keep This community is the premier network for flight and air traffic control simulation. How can anyone be seriously offended or afraid of an organisation that helps people not only enjoy thier hobby to the fullest, but it is also used by some as a stepping stone to a real career in aviation or the related areas. If Wall Street Journal can see the merits why all the narrow mindness here?60.226.112.22 03:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC) Steve[reply]
  • Strong Keep Very active community with over 120,000 members. Provides and educational experience to not only newbie virtual pilots but to people who have some flying time. Simulates actual air traffic control.
  • Strong Keep Very active community with over 120,000 members. Provides and educational experience to not only newbie virtual pilots but to people who have some flying time. Simulates actual air traffic control.(The guy above me is right!)
  • Keep Very active community with just over 120,000 members. Operates completely as a non-profit organisation . Provides the hobby with a valuable and high quality service. Has been remarked upon in WSJ to name but one. - //7th, October, 2006 (08:39)//
  • Strong Keep VATSIM isn't a business or company but an organization, and a very large one at that. It deserves a place on here just as any other large organization. I was amazed that such a network existed, when I was told about it. It is amazing that people can simulate real world operations so closely by using a flight simulator and a simulated radar client. //7th, October, 2006 (10:32)//
  • Keep
  • Keep Very active organization with over 120,000 members of the flight sim community. You delete this, then delete all organizations from this site.
  • Comment: There are 1,470 exact hits with this term on Google. Unfortunately, half of the article reads like an ad. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 23:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This "gamer nonsense" is not actually only about MSFS so it wouldn't be appropriate to just mention in FS article. You could use other simulators or no simulator at all by taking the role of an air traffic controller. VATSIM has been mentioned in a couple of news papers in my country and others. Hence, I think it deserves its own article. I mean, what VATSIM has less than ISketch? levent 23:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a legitimate organisation that is very important and notable in the flight simulator community. Flugmann 14:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep verifiable and meets WP:SOFTWARE, TewfikTalk 05:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This contains valuable information for new users and lots of good info Nice day3 19:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It is basically an ad for a website and software. Even if it is free, it still is an ad. Note to closing admin: This AFD has been filled with all sorts of socks, please take this into account when you close it! TV Newser Tipline 14:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe this is full of socks, which is people who use multiple usernames to post on the same thing to make others believe there is an overwhelming influence in the community. I would also like to challange the 'delete' croud to show proof (quotes etc.) of this 'ad'. So far they are just saying 'Delete Beacause it is an Ad. Ain't got no reason behind it, with that logic I could get almost any page deleted! --Rob 14:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Still, taking out the socks/SPAs, you get "no consensus" at the very least. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 20:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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