Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Transformers: Timelines (2nd nomination)

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2011 January 2.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Courcelles 01:44, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Transformers: Timelines

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Relisting per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2010 December 17. Procedural nomination only, I am neutral. T. Canens (talk) 15:54, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - None of the third-party sources show significant coverage more so than last time. Also, I find it doubtful that the book by Erin Breeton would contain anything that specifically meant "The Timelines toy line has proved extreemly popular", since it doesn't seem to contain the word "Timelines". NotARealWord (talk) 16:29, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I suggest people read the previous AfD before voting, so they can be sure you're making the right decision. I'm more towards "delete" but you all can decide for yourselves. However, please make sure you're decision is the best one (or at least, what you perceive as best). NotARealWord (talk) 17:04, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- Jclemens-public (talk) 19:41, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Just to be clear and honest - The Breeton book specifically said the LANDQUAKE toy was popular. Landquake toy was a Timelines toy, so that implicitly says at least this a Timelines toy was popular. It also pictures the Timelines toy set from 2005 (but called them BOTCON toys in the text). Mathewignash (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

if it says that Lanquake and a BotCon set were popular, than that's what the article should say. Implicit ≠ Verifiable. Plus, that again demonstrates my point on how people discuss BotCon, but not Timelines. NotARealWord (talk) 12:47, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. As a collector of these toys myself I can attest to how popular they are, especially the 2005 set. Good year. Good times. Kiki Rebeouf (talk) 00:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not quite sure if they're all popular. Maybe a few are (like Punch/Counterpunch). Only limited quantities were made anyway, so it's not too hard for them to get sold out. Plus, it seems that BigBadToyStore took quite a while to sell the BotCon 2009 sets they had (those sets were even put on clearance sale). NotARealWord (talk) 13:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Obvioulsy I am in support of keeping this article and letting it develop. It has third party sources, and it is an ongoing comic book series which will only generate more coverage over time. Fighting over this article would seem to be a waste of time, as it's only only on the cusp (I'd say past it) of establishing notability, but it will obviously generate more over time with each new issue and review. Mathewignash (talk) 22:37, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: sprawling list of fan-created figures and fiction, largely cited to fan publications. No indication of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fan-created? These are professionals who run the fan club. I know some people involved were taken straight from the fandom instead of being hired because they were professionals (Chris Ho, Benson Yee for example), but not all of them. NotARealWord (talk) 12:47, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Fan-commissioned' then, for all the difference it makes -- "created by the Transformers Collectors Club", regardless. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 12:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, more of solely aimed towards fans. In the previous AfD, I argued that this is fancruft due to this stuff is specifically aimed towards a portion of the fanbase. With "regular" Transformers media, there would be a significant number of casual viewers/readers who would give it a try even if they're terribly unfamiliar with Transformers. The same cannot be said with Timelines. It's designed to be of interest only to the fans. NotARealWord (talk) 12:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - You are in error sir about Timelines being "fan created", Fun Publications is a professional publisher based on Texas. They even do more than Transformers, as they also do other licensed material. The artists and writers who work for them have worked major companies like Marvel, Dreamwave and IDW. Your deletion rational is flawed and your vote should be ignored. Mathewignash (talk) 13:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the last bit of their vote (No indication of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject") seems correct. The ComicNewsi references only give minimal information and no third-party sources have a good plot synopsis (this one has a synopsis, but is not third-party). No third-party sources on the online stories from the club website either. So yeah, Hrafn's vote does have some point, even if not entirely correct. NotARealWord (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but delete. There are a few reliable sources, but none appear to address the actual topic in any detail. The book gives fairly limited mentions to individual toys; the New York Times piece doesn't mention Timelines; and the three independent sources [1] [2] [3] that offer a decent level of coverage seem to fail WP:RS by some way. Hence this falls short of meeting WP:GNG. Alzarian16 (talk) 17:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't really know how reliable they were, but I don't think any of them gave "extensive" coverage, considering that the sources on the comic books have no plot summary. NotARealWord (talk) 14:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong ^communicate 00:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or transwiki to Transformers wiki. This fancruft has no place on Wikipedia. Fails WP:GNG. SnottyWong ^communicate 00:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Transformers.wikia.com is pretty much inactive. The wiki that is active (tfwiki.net, run by David Willis) already has a lot of info on this stuff. Transwiki doesn't sound like a very good idea. NotARealWord (talk) 00:39, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Transwiki it wherever you want, it just doesn't belong here. If transwiki isn't a good option, then the next best one is to delete it entirely. SnottyWong ^confabulate 17:39, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More notability - I just found out today that the Timeslines set from 2 years ago was reviewed in "Lee's Action Figure and Toy Review" magazine. I'm getting the magazine now, so I can add a good citation to this article. Mathewignash (talk) 21:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fanboy sites and minor comic reviews are not sufficiently independent of the subject to establish notability as far as I'm concerned. Tarc (talk) 23:57, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per tarc.Bali ultimate (talk) 00:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There are plenty of reviews of items in this list. Pretty clearly meets WP:N. I don't think we can discount a source that otherwise meets WP:RS because it is a "fanboy site". 01:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hobit (talk • contribs)

If by "fanboy site", they meant, "Ben's World of Transformers", then that one does not establish notability. It's run by one of the writers for this stuff. A lot of the other references only give minimal information on this stuff. Notice how a lot of them don't even use the word "Timelines". The notability requirement (WP:N) needs some third-party source(s) which give lots of detail on the subject. At least one source must give a lot of information on this all on its own. I don't think there are any sources on this subject overall either. No references give the most basic information on Timelines, i.e "Timelines is the umbrella name used by Fun Publications for their Transformers media and toys". NotARealWord (talk) 14:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it had poor notability and lack of good sources the first AFD I see no visable improvement the second time.Dwanyewest (talk) 16:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- why are we here? The consensus at the last AfD was to delete, and at the DRV there was no consensus to overturn. Fansites and more or less trivial mentions of individual toys do not establish the notability of the line. Reyk _YO! 05:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A lot (all?) of the third-party sources proide only minimal information on the subject. Refs no. 11, 12, 14, 16 and 17 are directly from the club itself, so they're straight ahead out. 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 13 and 20 are from "Ben's World of Transformers", run by one of the people who wrote this stuff. 4,5,6 and 24 are from a book which gives only minimal information on this subject. Plus, as pointed out above, it's not even referenced correctly. The way it's used now, it seems to suggest somethin along the lines of "year after year, Timelines toys sold out really well", even though it only said the BotCon 2005 set and the Landquake toy were popular. Landquake was a free giveaway to people who subscribed to the collector's club magazine. Seriously, that book cannot be used to prove that Timelines toys have proved themselves popular the way it's suggestin since, it was pulished in 2006, and there hadn't been a lot of Timelines stuff yet, back then. The bcskids source (23)is only a preview, not really extensive coverage. Plus, Alzarian16 pointed out that it was unreliable, along with no. 10 and 22. Both of which don't really provide much information on this subject. (Also, in the previous AfD, I used the current source 22 to point this out as fancruft.) 21 and 18 are mainly about the convention. The toys are named (in 18) and mentioned as stuff available for purchase there, but that's about it. Not really that much info regarding Timelines specifically. Not much info on the toys mentioned either. The word "Timelines" appears in neither of those sources. The Tomopop ref (19) is only a preview of one toy, not much information. I guess if the ones Alzarian16 mentioned as non-reliable, then I guess the Mikethepod.com source (8) is also unreliable. NotARealWord (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ANOTHER SOURCE - Tomart's Action Figure Digest, No. 164 did a cover story on the 2008 Timelines toy set. You can see the cover here: http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/conventions-15/botcon-2008-shattered-glass-box-art-revealed-164648/ Mathewignash (talk) 01:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.