Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protestant Eastern Christianity

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Discussion of renaming or listifying the article can continue on its talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Protestant Eastern Christianity

[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

Protestant Eastern Christianity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

There is not one scientific secondary source confirming the existence of this branch of Christianity (needn't church sites, marginal articles by theologians and opinions of participants).

The article is either original research where other info about Protestantism such as Anglicanism with elements of the eastern rite or about Independent/Irregular Oriental Orthodoxy is being decreed to be about "Reformed Eastern Christianity" (reformed oriental orthodoxy). Some argu also see on the page of discussion for the article. This branch and term cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources (authoritative studies of classification of denominations), including "neologism"-neonotion "Reformed Eastern Christianity". DayakSibiriak (talk) 23:59, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So its a Keep then? If you wanted the page to existed? Chad The Goatman (talk) 02:51, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Srnec:, Kindly do tag your above comments, with a 'Keep' or a 'Delete'.Macinderum (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This source neither general, nor reliable. Just an article by some confessional theologian. DayakSibiriak (talk) 05:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's published by a university press and is reliable. Srnec (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not the reality of the existence or hoax of the Eastern Reformation. The problem is that the article doesnt rely on secondary academic sources (such as Encyclopeadia of Religions, 16 vols, ed. by M. Eliade, NY, 1987, or Melton, J. Gordon (2005). Encyclopedia of Protestantism. NY.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) or others) and there is no info about this branch. The wiki authors independently introduce a new notion of denomination based in part on primary sources or with no anything.
Note. The real reformation in the East, as I understand it, is the Iconoclastic movement in antiquity or the umbrella Russian Spiritual Christianity preserved to this day, etc. original eastern movements. But the article under discussion is about Protestants in the East (Anglicans, Lutherans, Evangelics) or about independent groups of Oriental Orthodoxy. DayakSibiriak (talk) 05:33, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • [Questionably] Comment and also Keep for now–, until more sources are for their page are defined. As these Churches are not entirely compared to the other Mainstream or not Eastern Christian denominations because of their similar nature by theology and practices to the Occident Protestant Churches, except few lesser known Western Christian denominations does do the opposite while they don't have communion with the mainstream Christian denominations like Catholicism or Anglicanism as examples.
Also I feel this sudden demand of deleting this page that too early right now as its on temporary lock mode, right just after I demanded to lock this page and the Mar Thoma Syrian Church's page days ago, over a ludicrous edit war with likely the same guy/gal with few identities (either User or anonymous), with the main classification; as their website does has reformation page as 'Heritage', and the page itself mentioned Anglican missionaries has accidentally transformed their Church. And I wanted to know if you had any connections to it or not? Chad The Goatman (talk) 02:49, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I invite the attention of all participants to the discussion which led to the consensual unopposed change of this article's title, archived in Talk:Reformed Eastern Christianity. I believe that it is the prelude to this deletion nomination. It clearly explains how misleading and factually incorrect it is, to call these denominations which sprang up from the mid-nineteenth century as "Orthodox", while they possess none of the key distinguishing common characteristics of Eastern/Oriental/Independent Orthodoxy. The authentic primary sources by these churches themselves lays bare their common characteristics; first of all their reformed nature and secondly, to the extent their reformed faiths and theologies can accommodate, the maintenance of some eastern traditions. It is clear from the primary sources itself that most of these denominations came into being due to existing Protestant Churches adopting reformed variants of Orthodox liturgy and worship. The rest from reformations of Orthodox beliefs and practices, inspired by the teachings of Western Protestant missionaries. In either case, the end result was essentially the same. Even secondary sources that mentions these denominations defines them as reformed and eastern, but not Orthodox. For example, check how the Mar Thoma Church in full communion with Anglicans, is defined by the official website of the Anglican Communion (https://www.anglicancommunion.org/ecumenism/churches-in-communion.aspx). The consensual new title 'Reformed Eastern Christianity' has been replicated to the respective Wikipedia pages of these churches, as their new classification. They have largely remained unopposed and stable to this day. Only in the Mar Thoma Church page, indisputably well sourced changes were disrupted by several anons and new user id's (all possibly the same person). This page is now locked up pending dispute resolution. It is here that I seriously share Chad The Goatman's suspicion that this deletion nomination may have something to do with it. Reformed Eastern Christianity is an existing reality, though not widely noticed or written extensively about. And perhaps justifiably so, as they remain for most part, outside of other major global Christian Communions.Macinderum (talk) 13:54, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but tidy up. This article would be much better with a short introduction (much as now) followed by a list of relevant denominations. This will enable it to identify and discuss the phenomenon. Some are evangelical movements within ancient churches; one apparently of occidental origin; some may be the result of the impact of Protestant missionaries on ancient Eastern churches. The detail about each church should be split out into a separate article, unless there already is one. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:52, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Peterkingiron: Thanks for the suggestion. Starting work in that direction. However not splitting out the details on the Marthoma Church, even though a separate page exits. It may cause distracting edit wars. Will do it after this discussion gets over. Macinderum (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, needless to say that you may discreetly add more denominations/movements to the article, if you think they're in-scope and belongs there. However that is absolutely no valid reason for a deletion nomination; such things should be the settled in the article's talk page. Macinderum (talk) 03:14, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I was thinking the article might just need to be moved to something with reference to Protestantism rather than Reformed Protestantism, but I think I agree with others that no reliable sources have been brought forward to show the existence of a branch or "range" of denominations that fit the definition in the lead. Indeed, the citations in the lead are all about specific denominations, showing that they are in some ways Protestant and Eastern or Orthodox, but not that "Protestant Eastern Christianity" exists. So anything in the article stating the existence of "Protestant Eastern Christianity" is WP:SYNTH. --JFH (talk) 00:18, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Verifiable source 'Protestant and Reformed Eastern Churches: "A Historical and Ecumenical Glance"', dealing with the subject, has been added to the article. It is published by a university press and based on sound bibliography. Due to origins outside of the Occident and existence outside of major global Christian communions, REC may not have been extensively written about. This Wiki article like many others is a continuous 'work in progress' and more sources will have to be added as and when they become available. Nevertheless, there are enough sources enabling the article to explain the phenomenon and makes the content verifiable. So its worth keeping. Macinderum (talk) 09:52, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still confused about the scope of the article. If it's Protestant churches in "the East", then obviously there are lots of Protestant churches in Asia and the rest of the Eastern world. There are probably more Protestants in Asia than in the West, depending on how you count them, and we have them covered in Protestantism in China, Protestantism in India, Protestantism in Russia, etc. But why would we have another article on Protestantism in the superset of "the East"? If there are sources out there saying there is something to say about Protestant churches in the East, maybe there is a case for the present article, but so far we just have one (Spanish-language) article talking about it.
If we are talking about some kind of subbranch of Christianity that's a hybrid of Eastern Christianity and Protestantism, that would be very interesting and worthy of an article, but again, I have not seen a reliable source on that. --JFH (talk) 03:10, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, colleagues. It is forbidden by the wikirules to publish original articles and syntheses, incl. based on marginal theories. And this article introduces a new concept, a new trend in Christianity at the same level with Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism. This is forbidden not only in English Wiki, but I believe in African as well. In the reference literature there is no such trend. This is only a variation of either Anglicanism or Lutheranism, etc. DayakSibiriak (talk) 23:46, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. DayakSibiriak (talk) 00:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. DayakSibiriak (talk) 00:53, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2019 September 9. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 02:19, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - all of these churches exist, but are there any religious scholars who group them under the term "Protestant Eastern Christianity"? - the references deal with individual churches, but only one provides an overview, and that article does not attempt to define a group, merely describe the churches - it seems that what is significant here, and makes the groups distinct, is that these congregations are protestant based on the Eastern Orthodox rite rather than the Roman rite of western European congregations, which is certainly a notable difference - as "Protestant Eastern Christianity" is not a recognized designation, perhaps it would be best to listify the the article as "List of Protestant Eastern Churches" along the lines of List of Christian denominations (some of the churches in the Protestant Eastern Christianity article are included in the List of Christian denominations) - Epinoia (talk) 21:30, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It’s a good idea that a list of churches can be created. Only then, by analogy with the Eastern Catholic Churches, is it better to call it "Eastern Protestant Churches" (or "Eastern-rite Protestant Churches). But again, where is the criterion, which churches to include there? because there is no such direction in scientific authoritative literature, since all Protestant churches, including Jehovah's Witnesses, in eastern countries will be possible. DayakSibiriak (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is true. I mean that scientists do not use the concept of the Protestants of the Catholic rite in relation to the Anglicans and Lutherans who have preserved elements of the Catholic Mass. So wouldn’t it be nonsense to start talking about the Protestants of the Eastern rite, only because several Anglican and Lutheran churches for mission inserted elements of Eastern liturgies into their service? DayakSibiriak (talk) 04:13, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have already stated the reasons for my proposition to maintain this article as it is and I still favor it. That said, in contemplation of the various dimensions of the word 'compromise', I find user Epinoia's views rather appealing. Since the creation of this page in 2006 till the consensual page move on 19 July 2019, the content appeared to be an unsubstantiated, subtle and false portrayal of these denominations, as part of the well defined and easily differentiable family of Eastern/Oriental Orthodox churches. That necessitated some work on the article. In any case, it emerges glaringly from this present discussion, that the denominations mentioned in the article are indeed part of Protestantism. That is one thing on which all editors seem to agree upon. "Protestants in the East, maintaining reformed variants of eastern liturgies/worship", is precisely what they are. Besides, even if this article gets converted to a list, the content and sources would be preserved to a significant extent, I guess. Hence, I assume good faith and support user Epinoia's suggestion, as a secondary middle ground option. Macinderum (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 18:04, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe a possible consensus on converting, example, to List of Eastern-rite Protestant Churches, will be useful for Wikipedia readers, as Epinoia and later Macinderum have offered. When creating lists, we are less attached to the generalized source in comparison with ordinary articles, if I'm wrong, correct me. But in order to avoid the publication of an original research and a new concept, the following conditions must be observed. 1. In the Preamble, stipulate that this matter is not a separate Christian branch, but only a collection of churches from various Protestant denominations, practicing elements of Eastern rites (this will be so until the time when a concept of such a branch appears in the reference literature). 2. Therefore, it will not be possible to refer to this list in other wiki articles and templates in order to enter a new current at the same level with Eastern Orthodoxy or the Church of the East, and you can put information about this list with, for example, "See also" templates. 3. Of course there will be a reduction of the text, there will be only a brief Preamble with criterion and so on, the List itself with a brief description of each church, and division Referencies. The list can be made normal or in the form of a table such as in article List of new religious movements. And if the churches will be a little then let ace in alphabetically without division according to Anglicanism and other denominations and countries. That is my view of a possible compromise. It is interesting to hear the support of this option, or something is wrong, or opinions that can not be saved as a list too and need to delete. DayakSibiriak (talk) 00:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • With the above comments from the user who made this nomination, I believe we can now see our way forward with respect to the actual binary choice (keep or delete), this specific forum is about. It tends towards a keep and I still believe that it would be possible to keep this page as it is, as per WP:content policies, based on current references. The arguments in favor of it has already been raised. However, just in case that becomes absolutely undoable, I'm ok with its conversion to a list. In absolute good faith, I point out that the fine details of such an ideated list should be sorted out in the article's talk page and not here. Taking into account, our unanimous agreement about those denominations as being (Reformed) Eastern rite Protestants and not Eastern/Oriental Orthodox, I do not foresee many seriously conflicting considerations, forthcoming. Macinderum (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For clearer consensus. Here is list only by ABC order (info about churches from wiki article Protestant Eastern Cristianity and Eastern-rite Anglicanism and small addition). 

      List of Eastern-rite Protestant Churches
Preamble ...
List
Referencies ...

Colleagues. In case on convertin the article to the list, to keep or delete too? DayakSibiriak (talk) 12:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This grouping is not right. Protestent churches are those churches which got seperated from Roman catholic churches or rather in Western christianity. Clubbing together churches which follow christology and trinity faith based on first three (Oriental Orthodox ) and first seven ( Eastern Orthodox) with churches which donot follow any is not correct. Many of the churches which is mentioned in article is of pentecostal nature and revivalist spirit which donot follow the Episcopalian tradition. Hence the title itself is confusing or artificial. By the way some churches cannot be grouped with any like Church of East of persians, Malankara Marthoma Syrian church of St Thomas Christians etc (Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 18:34, 14 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]

Clearly, the compromise option by Epinoia of converting to a list did not find support. Whoever was for the deletion continues to insist on deletion, who was in favor of keeping the article still wishing to keep it in its present form. In this situation, I also think that it is more correct to delete, because there is a risk that the list may also introduce a new original concept. DayakSibiriak (talk) 04:07, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Protestant_Eastern_Christianity&oldid=916358973"