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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge/redirect all to Kill Switch...Klick. Mangojuicetalk 14:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

D.A. Sebasstian

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D.A. Sebasstian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

I previously speedily deleted this as A7, but it now asserts notability. These are articles about a musician, his band, and his record label. However, none appear to be notable per WP:MUSIC. Searching for all of these bring up forum posts and download pages, but nothing that would satisfy the notability guideline.

Also nominating:

--Coredesat 04:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Deletion? I have posted updates to a page a previous author had posted on Wikipedia years ago for one of my recording projects Kill Switch...Klick. Now it is being considered for deletion. This is odd.

I added two complimentary pages about my discography outside of Kill Switch...Klick and my Label and Film Company. These are also being considered for deletion. I was not using these as Vanity Pages. My own websites get thousands of visitors a day. I doubt anyone could get "more famous" from a listing on Wikipedia, I just want the facts about myself to be accurate. If people post about me on WIki I would apprectiate that. DIY. D.A.

  • Weak keep at least Kill Switch...Klick as the reputable Allmusic profile describes them, "Originally the solo project of composer/singer d.A. Sebasstian, Seattle's Kill Switch Klick became one of the Northwest's leading industrial crossover bands."[1] (Allmusic also confirms some of the production credits.[2]) It might be best to merge all this into a single Sebasstian bio if we can get stronger notability. --Dhartung | Talk 06:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Print citculation is 300,000 in the Chicago and Mid West. The article also explains my progression from musician to film maker. I also have the MTV pay stubs (through ASCAP) for material on the Made Show if need be, as well as an archive of Kill Switch...Klick press including cover mention on Outburn Magazine, full pages in A.P., The Stranger, The Rocket, Seattle Times, etc. Most of this was pre-internet. The reason to keep the pages separate, is- they are separate entities. I constructed the D.A. Sebasstian page, as Discography, Writting Credits for national magazines and Film Creds. These are a separate things from Kill Switch...Klick and people who want to know who the band is/was may or may not be interested in the Surf & Twang music I'm making now nor the articles I write for Ol' Skool Magazine or CK Deluxe. I have also progressed into a film maker. The film Hot Rod girls Save The World is getting a huge underground buzz and is due out in mid 2007. It seems jumbled to have all this under one heading. D.A. Sebasstian --Sebasstian 17:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Sebasstian you may want to take a look at WP:COI. Also instead of blanketing this page with your achievements, you might want to add some references to the actual article. Please see WP:RS for what is and is not a reliable source. As it stands now the article does not assert notability per WP:N or WP:BIO. --Daniel J. Leivick 21:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which article are you talking about? Just the D.A. Sebasstian page? WP:COI can not not apply (especially self promotion) to the Kill Switch...Klick page as I only added the D.A. Sebasstian and Go-Kustom pages. I did not start the Kill Switch...Klick page. I do not know who did. All I have done to the KsK page is correct mis-information and since it is about me I am the verification. Also the D.A. Sebasstian page is only a list. What needs to be verified?

--Sebasstian 02:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am not referring to the articles themselves but to the AfD debate. AfDs are specifically mentioned under COI. Verifaction cannot come from the subject that is why I would like to see some external sources that deal with these topics. --Daniel J. Leivick 03:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last article for D.A. Sebasstian (explained above)-

http://www.maximumink.com/articles.php?articleId=714

Press archives (all from hard copy that can be provided- not all available) http://www.go-kustom.com/kskpress01.html

In print for Go-Kustom with current iTunes links. http://www.go-kustom.com/catalog.html

D.A. Sebasstian movie links http://www.go-kustom.com/hotrodgirlssavetheworld.html

What else do you need?

  • What I see here are three links to your own web page. The only source that comes close to being acceptable is the first one from maximumink, but it in and of itself does not assert notability because it doesn't really contain enough info to create three articles let alone one. In order for a subject to meet WP:N there must be sufficient external sources to write an article on the subject. You may well be on the rise and soon there may be sufficient info to justify the article but for now it doesn't appear to be the case. Finally it may not be Wikipedia policy but personally I feel that if the only person arguing to keep an article is the subject than they probably are not notable. --Daniel J. Leivick 04:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The links to my web pages are archives of previously non-web material (print magazines). I offered to mail you hard copies. I save this stuff for my kids. Did you look at the links? This is riduculous. --Sebasstian 04:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW how long has the Kill Switch...Klick article been up? Who originally created it? I had never heard of Wikipedia until a year or so ago- I was Googling Kill Switch...Klick to quell rumors that we broke up- and Wiki came up. I checked the page and there was quite a few bit of mis-information. I found that I could correct the info. Later I heard a piece on NPR about the Wiki experiments in Encylopedic information and it made sense. Why wasn't the Kill Switch...Klick article put up for deletion a year ago? Why didn't anyone delete it a year ago? It's virtually the same, except for a few corrections. --Sebasstian 04:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Finally I submit these Wiki pages as comparison to what I did with the Kill Switch...Klick & D.A. Sebasstian articles- Spahn Ranch (band), Matt Green, Athan Maroulis. Same level of band notariety. Same levels of individual notoriety. Those pages stand. I've spent way too much time on this. I've got to finish editing my film.

--Sebasstian 06:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please check this link and look at the numbers. http://uncutvideo.aol.com/users/dasebasstian/0a5ef121dcedf7bbe330dbc3c043c0e9?index=2 --Sebasstian 14:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Contributing to the debate on AfD is new to me, so please try to coach if possible. Dark Gravity
  • I may be missing something here on why someone is trying to delete this article, but KSK's music reached me on the opposite side of the country about twelve years ago, and it remains important enough of an influnece that I not only replaced what recordings I owned after they were stolen, but I accquired more! How can you argue for the deletion of such a noteworthy industrial act?

Dark Gravity 08:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is an excerpt of a letter back to a concerned individual I just received about the deleting of the Kill Switch...Klick article on Wikipedia-

“Thanks bro. I try. I tried arguing with Wiki about it. Doesn't look good. They said because I amended the page (for some info corrections) that it's a conflict of interest or "COI." I had added a D.A. Sebasstian page (as a CD and writers list- I also write for CK Deluxe and Ol Skool Rodz Magazines once in awhile) and one for my label (Go-Kustom Rekords) with the intent of taking that info off of the KsK pages, keeping the KsK page purely about the band, and not me or the label. Makes sense to me, but not to Wiki. They say that all the pages should be condensed or deleted. If they condense the three pages- my understanding is they will nix the Kill Switch...Klick page and put it all under my name. I don't want this as KsK has/had other members and has a life of it's own- plus there are many links back to that page from other "industrial and electronic" Wiki pages. I tried forwarding links from my web site, where I had archived the print media (as proof that all three entities - KsK, D.A. Sebasstian & Go-Kustom Rekords had separate magazine and newspaper articles, but they said that was not acceptable because I had collected them on my site (another COI). These articles were in magazines that do not put their content on the web. I also offered to send hard copies for review. They would not address that...“ --Sebasstian 16:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, heres the deal. Editing minor details on your bio page is not too big a deal. The COI lies somewhat in the comments on this deletion discussion, but the real problem is your creation of pages related to your other projects, like Go Kustom Films, and Ol Skool Rodz. I definitely see that KsK is a notable act. However I have yet to see how we can source a biographical article about you. It is not a problem to source it from printed material, magazines and books can be cited just like webpages, however I caution against writing an autobiography on Wikipedia, some one will come along and do it eventually if you are notable enough. I know that you did not start the article on yourself but you have argued to protect it from deletion. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to merge any relevant info from the D.A Sebasstian article into the KsK article as sourcing the D.A article may be difficult. If I could make a friendly suggestion, I would stick to editing and creating articles about subjects you are interested in but not directly related to. Your Kustom Kulture page is a great start. In any case don't take any of this personally. --Daniel J. Leivick 16:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel- Honestly I am not taking it personally. Ive been in the media business since the 1980's so I have a thick skin. I've made my money and made my mark and been lucky enough to have complete artistic freedom. My whole argument is to make an information flow relevent to the Article's subject title. Something that Wiki sometiems lacks (but obviously strives for). I saw the Kill Switch...Klick Article becoming an "achivements of D.A. Sebasstian Article." I didn't think that was fair to Mike Ditmore and Jeremy Moss and others who have worked in KsK. After the other two pages were established (Go-Kustom Rekords and D.A. Sebasstian) I had planned on editing out the Go-Kustom Rekords info and D.A. Sebasstian info and keep it about the band. To me it was a design issue. The links I had provided on my site were for the D.A. Sebasstian citations in Seattle Magazine, Fangoria Magazine, Hemmings Motor News, etc. National press. If as an editing decision- you guys decided to condense, I would rather you just delete the D.A. Sebasstian Article and Go-Kustom Rekords. There is already too much info about me in the KsK Article. It has become convoluted. Also I would not delete the Ol' Skool Rodz or CK Deluxe pages. You can go down to any (and I mean any) store and buy those magazines. They are a Godsend to Kustom Kulture and a true resource. The fact that I have written an article or two in the magazines does not make it a COI. I gain nothing by their inclusion on WIki. --Sebasstian 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cool I think we are in agreement. I think it would be best to actually redirect D.A Sebasstian and Go Kustom records to KsK that way if some one searches for you they end up finding something. The magazines are fine to keep too. I think I will probably nominate Go Kustom Films for deletion and see what the community says though. Good working with you. --Daniel J. Leivick 18:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is that it should remain as is. All the info is current and for the most part acurate. I don't feel there is a conflict of interest at all. You have a person who has projects that have bled into each other. Hope you can work it out.

Actually the conflict of interest is very clear. D.A created an article about himself, it is very hard to write objectively about oneself and even if some is able to people who read the article and see who created it will suspect an attempt at self promotion. --Daniel J. Leivick 20:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To chime in- Daniel the D.A. Sebasstian page is only a list. So no real writing was involved as a COI. One of the ways to avert a COI is by Disclosure- and I have been very forth wright. Personally I would say 90 percent (unverified number) of ALL musicians Articles On Wiki are created by The Band, Artists, Record Label or Publiscists on Wiki. I'm sure fans add to the pages or add articles on older obscure bands all the time, but the level of information on most is beyond what the average fan could ever know. I have read dozens of Band Articles that look exactly like press releases. BTW If you delete the pages and do a redirect (as you stated above- and yes I could live with that) and then a fan or interested party tries putting the D.A. page back up again, will it stand or be deleted? I am an extremely honest person (verifiable) and would not try this under an anonymous log in. However word is getting out about this and quite a few people are very pissed (very verifiable). Also if anyone makes a comment please sign you name. --Sebasstian 22:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The other things is- is it possible to ammend the COI guidelines? Who would I talk to about this?--Sebasstian 23:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First I don't see any pissed off people, why should they be upset? If they want to help out and improve these pages they are welcome to. I would also have to disagree with you, I would say that only a small portion of musician articles are created with direct COI. Fans or just editors create most of them (as is the case with KsK). This can be verified by looking at the page history. Most of the music articles that have COI problems are about bands with limited or in some cases no exposure. It is true that there are some articles that read like press releases, but this is a problem not a reason to let this section of pages have COI. If you want to change COI policy you can discuss at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest. --Daniel J. Leivick 21:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm hearing it from friends and associates who think the who COI policy is silly. I don't want to post their e-mails without permission, and yes they are upset. I also know several bands with Wiki pages that (after talking to them about this) told me they put their own Articles up. I do not want to name names as you'll pull their pages. In my own instance it may have been Cleopatra Records (or one of their street team members) who originally put up the KsK artcile- I really don't know. I hope your not ignorant to what label's street teams do? They get free promo (CD's, stickers, concert tickets) from the label to saturate the web with press releases and info. They look for every opportiunity possible. If they list on Wiki that is a definite COI (under your current guidlines) as they are paid by the label. That is a very very common practice with almost ALL mid-sized indie and up labels. Many labels also pay publicists to do the exact same thing. I remember getting a publicists e-mail with a list of all the websites he posts to...it is incredible. All for $200! I'm sure Wiki is on alot of lists. My understanding of a COI is if the person or company benefits from the process. On Public Access TV we had a COI policy that forbade us from putting up commercials for local companies. It was a very fine line. If for example you did a feature on a local company and you posted their website at the end of the interview, and people could buy things on the website, are you using Public Access in a commercial way. The SCAN solution was that the purchased products had to be at least two klicks away from the websites entry point. Now understand that Seattle Public Access has a huge viewer base, second only to NYC with 500,000 regular & consistant viewers a month (statistic provided by SCAN). My TV Show featured many car builders, pin-ups and bands, some of which were on my label. THIS WAS NOT CONSIDERED A COI. The bands probably benefited from the exposure, as did the label (in small ways). We also played music videos provided to us from Mute Records, Metal Blade Records, Beggars Banquet, etc. Given the viewer base and amount of e-mails we received we esimated 10-20 thousand watched our show each week. Were these music videos really TV Commercials? Yes and no. In the same way if a label posts on Wiki about a band they signed, is it a COI? I would say over all no- not unless there was an MP3 player embeded in the Wiki Article with a "Buy This Here" button next to it. I really think if an artist, poet, band, writer, film maker, politician, activist, scientist with a decent body of work or achievments wants to post an Autobigraphical Article on Wiki- as long as it doesn't contain things like "the best band ever" (unless from review etc.) it should stand. The horses mouth is the best source.

--Sebasstian 23:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we will probably have to agree to disagree on the COI issue. This isn't the forum to argue about it anyway. In regards to the AfD, I hope that we have come to a compromise: redirect D.A. Sebasstian and Go-Kustom Rekords to the Kill Switch...Klick page some of the content could be merged as well. I think this should work well as KsK is clearly pretty notable, but I am unsure if we could source a biographical article or one about Go-Kustom records. --Daniel J. Leivick 23:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like I said I can live with a redirect. The listing is not such a big deal (as long as it's accurate). What's bothering me (and others) is Wiki policy as far as COI. I am an arts advocate and want to make sure that Wiki policy is effective to listing the arts. Do what you will with my pages, but I will not be satisfied until a change in policy occurs. It's a matter of principle. I hope you understand- who are the senior policy makers on Wiki? Is it strictly consensus?

--Sebasstian 00:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COI is a guideline and is based entirely on user consensus. If you want to change it I suggest bringing it up on the talk page for that article. --Daniel J. Leivick 00:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. If your looking for notoriety for Go-Kustom, try typing the word "Kustom" in Google. I think it comes up in the top 10-13. Given all the kustom kulture and car websites with the word "kustom" in them, that is mind boggling (or googling). --Sebasstian 01:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually we come up 10 on Google out of over 2,000,000 entries! Is that note worthy or not worthy? --Sebasstian 01:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google result don't mean too much. All that is needed to meet WP:N is sources from which to write the article. We have articles on pretty obscure stuff that might be tough to even find on google, but they have had books or articles written about them. Go-Kustom might be notable, but right now no sources are listed in the article. --Daniel J. Leivick 01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Kill Switch...Klick; redirect the others with some merge of contents per Daniel. I think it's a pretty good solution given the concerns regarding notability and COI. As a side comment, Wikipedia is far from static, so if there are new developments (like the movie) or third party editors with sources, the Sebasstian article can be recreated.--Kubigula (talk) 17:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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