Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anglais

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Star Mississippi 20:03, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Anglais

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A classic case of a redirect with possibilities being needlessly disambiguated. Yes, this term is French for English, but WP:DAB explicitly states that a disambiguation page is not a foreign language dictionary. Sure, there are historical ties between English and French, but this could be said for any number of pairs of languages; it doesn't warrant foreign language disambiguation for all of them. Should be a redirect to the only thing known by this name in English, as it was originally. — Anonymous 19:14, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Disambiguations and England. — Anonymous 19:14, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
~~Procedural close~~. This is not proposed as an article for deletion: the nominator's preferred disposal is to redirect it, and no policy reason to delete is offered. Just redirect it. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- @Shhhnotsoloud, already tried, was reverted because it was previously an RfD. Consensus has established that AfD is the correct venue for controversial BLARs. — Anonymous 14:46, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK. In which case, Redirect to Country dance. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: A valid DAB, with at least four possibilities and maybe more: the dictionary definition, country dance, creme anglaise and Les Anglais in Haiti. (Note that anglaise redirects to country dance; it should redirect here.) Dclemens1971 (talk) 14:06, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dclemens1971, see WP:DABDICT and WP:PARTIAL. A dictionary definition is a textbook example of what to never put on a DAB page, while creme anglaise and Les Anglais are partial title matches whose subjects are not known as simply "anglais" alone. — Anonymous 14:31, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  - They are enough of a conceptual match to overcome any concerns in this situation, and re: DABDICT, what I see here as a definition is fully compliant with the guidance on that page that a short description of the common general meaning of a word can be appropriate for helping the reader determine context. "Creme anglaise" is at least as appropriate a navigational result as "country dance" for this word. Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:13, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Dclemens1971, I don't follow. I'll grant that you could make the argument that a brief definition of the word anglais could not possibly hurt if there were a need for a DAB page to begin with, but providing the definition is not a reason for the existence of said page. Your response also seems to ignore WP:PARTIAL; unless you can provide a source showing where someone refers to "creme anglaise" as simply "anglais(e)" without the extra word, then it will only ever be a partial title match (same with "Les Anglaise"). However, there are sources that refer to the dance as simply "anglais". — Anonymous 16:02, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      - It is extremely normal in cooking to refer to creme anglaise as just "anglaise" or "the anglaise", as in "Time to make the anglaise." See Dale-Roberts, The Test Kitchen; Foskett, Campbell and Patkins, Practical Cookery: Level 3; the Culinary Institute of America text Baking and Pastry; etc. Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 05:32, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, nobody calls Crème anglaise "Anglais", and we Brits just call it custard. "Anglais" isn't a plausible search term for "Law French", and as for the English language and people, it has been rightly said above that Wikipedia isn't a dictionary of foreign terms. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:42, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dclemens1971 unintentionally makes an argument against one of the supposed ambiguities. Checking, it turns out that those books never say "anglais" for crème anglaise and always say "anglaise".
However: subtract one, add one. "Anglaise" (also "Anglaise tardive") was an old name for the duke cherry, more formally known (after some jumping about the binomials over the years) as Prunus × gondouinii (redlinked at Prunus subg. Cerasus and List of Prunus species). Equally, I cannot find any good quality musical sources that use "anglais", in actual English, for country dance; only "Anglaise" or "Anglois", sometimes italicized, sometimes not. And no-one calls law French "Anglais" or "Anglaise", not least because that would be a complete misnomer. So:
- Anglaise is ambiguous between crème anglaise, the country dance, and Prunus × gondouinii
- This article title, anglais, is not actually used in English for anything listed on the disambiguation, and doesn't have its own plausible redirect target at all except to (ironically) anglaise.
The correct course of action seems to be to rename this to anglaise and make it a three-way disambiguation. It is typical of Wikipedia that we have it exactly backwards after 2 decades. Uncle G (talk) 15:15, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- @Uncle G Anglaise is just the feminine of anglais; it would be silly to have two separate dab pages for what is the same word in French. Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:22, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  - It is a good thing that I did not say to do that, then. Please read what I actually said that I think to be the correct course of action to take. Uncle G (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Uncle G I wasn't saying you said that, I was just pointing out that they are the same word so one dab page will suffice. Often harder to get to a consensus for "move" than for "keep" since a move is an editorial decision, but if it's anglaise instead of anglais, no skin off my nose either way. Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:43, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Maybe I misunderstood something concerning "editorial decision"? I do see that "harder to get" was used. The lead at Articles for deletion states, Common outcomes are that the article is kept, merged, redirected, incubated, renamed/moved to another title, userfied to a user subpage, or deleted per the deletion policy. -- Otr500 (talk) 19:02, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (changed from "Delete") Seems like trivia. But may be better to keep since it is geared to disambiguate. Ramos1990 (talk)
~~Redirect~~, I am not sure if the "Delete" !votes are fully reading this discussion? Well, the correct !vote here should be to redirect per " Should be a redirect to the only thing known by this name in English, as it was originally." Agree with editor Shhnotsoloud assessment. Though I have been convinced that a Keep would be acceptable here. Iljhgtn (talk) 03:32, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 07:58, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but with just the dance entry, Les Anglais (Haitian commune), Les Anglais (a book by Philippe Daudy), and Charlotte Anglais (List of One Piece characters). Wikipedia is not a French-English dictionary, so English language and English people are out. The introductory sentence translation and the Wiktionary link are quite sufficient. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:15, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect Partial matches should not be catered to by dab pages. There appears to be just the one term that is used exactly thus, and that is the country dance. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:18, 10 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.