Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abstruse topics in Pynchon's Against the Day

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Majorly (hot!) 19:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Abstruse topics in Pynchon's Against the Day

An unnecessary article on one aspect of a book that has yet to prove lasting value. Abstruse topics within a work of fiction should be included in that book's article, they do not require a lengthy, separate article. Ipsenaut 04:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge; this article was split out from the main article on Against the Day after considerable debate. The material should be kept; much of it is quite useful, and comparable to other efforts such as the featured article on List of cultural references in The Cantos. I am neutral as to whether it is maintained separately or as part of the article. A Musing (formerly Sam)

Strong Keep Nominator is wrong on every count. When a book garners as much serious critical attention as this one does (see the looooong list of reviews at the bottom of Against the Day) from just about every major publication that reviews books), the book can well deserve more than one article about it. This has been happening with all of Pynchon's books for decades, and hardly any of his books have gone out of print. In fact, not only are they reprinted -- books are written about them, as the Amazon list I just linked to will show. Abstruse topics in the book are hardly just "one aspect." The nature and meaning of the abstruse topics is intimately connected with the themes of the book, and there is no settled consensus opinion among the critics so far as to how the book's themes and abstruse topics fit together. So this has become the primary topic of most of the reviews. This novel is one of a relatively small number (see Category:References in literary works) that are both of proven importance (as well as we can prove any contemporary novel -- by citing the enormous attention it has received), that are widely known to be difficult to understand and where understanding the abstruse references is key to understanding the novel. I don't know how you could adequately cover this encyclopedic subject without this article in addition to the main article on the book. I initially opposed splitting this article off from the main article on the book, but both articles are valuable and could not now fit well into one Wikipedia page. Nor should they be shortened. They will both change in time as the critics eventually form something closer to a consensus on the book. Noroton 22:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the literary merit of this book. However, this article is nothing more than a depository for links to related articles. Readers can research these subjects on their own. This may not be Wikipedia policy, but I believe we agree that Wikipedia is not Cliffs Notes. On a more serious note, could you show me another article that is solely composed of links to others, with no explanation given? I have never seen one before and I don't see why this should set the precedent. Ipsenaut 03:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Readers can research these subjects on their own" applies to everything in Wikipedia. Readers sometimes use lists for easier research. If the article were renamed "List of abstruse topics in Pynchon's Against the Day" that should completely satisfy your objection to it being nothing more than a "depository for links" (which in Wikipedia are usually called "lists") but it would make the lengthy title even lengthier to no useful purpose. I can show you dozens of articles composed solely or almost solely of links to others, usually with the two words "List of" as the first words in the title. There's List of school districts in Connecticut. Want more?

If these topics figure into the plot of the book, they can remain in the book's article. The items on this list share no common ground. Honestly, just linking a bunch of years? Does that do anyone any good? Simply enough, if these topics aren't abstruse-- Colorado?-- then they don't belong here. If they are so unique, they surely merit inclusion on the novel's page. Ipsenaut 04:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The "plot of the book"? The plot of the book is a labyrinth, extremely hard to summarize and impossible to summarize with the details that would be required to include this information. Really, the plot summary would be longer than this article is. Please read through to the bottom of this discussion, because you're making points that have already been answered (concerining year links, for instance). Noroton 04:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Even were the book never to sell another copy, the stature of Pynchon in 20th/21st century literature ensures that it will be the subject of study for many, for a long time. Part of the nature of the writing is the often seamless merging of fact and fiction. The article provides a single point of reference for readers who wish to investigate topics in the book, many of which fall well outside the category of general knowledge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.84.57.149 (talk) 08:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 09:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep– I doubt this could fit within the Against the Day article itself. After more of the literary types have written about the book, it should be possible to craft an encyclopedic article about it which satisfies WP:NOR and incorporates references to these "abstruse topics" in a more natural way. Anville 17:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete Among the "abstruse topics" are 28 places, including New York City and Paris, The 30 individual years when the story takes place, 15 historical events and people, including Pancho Villa and the Mexican Revolution, 35 scientific theories and scientists, including Marco Polo and imaginary numbers, and 23 other topics, including poison gas and Buddhism. This is self-evidently nonsense. As for the content of the article, the topics are merely listed. A reader of Pynchon wishing to find out more about World War I (near the top of the list) could go to that article just as well directly. If kept, a title change will be proposed--and an edit made.DGG 03:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for calling "self evidently nonsense" what other editors have discussed and thought over probably a lot longer than you have. A reader of Pynchon that wants to look up one topic here would likely want to look up many topics here. Clicking on them here is more helpful than forcing the reader to type them all in. Also, it is much easier for the reader who forgets a topic or can't think of just the right subject or doesn't always know the Wikipedia name for the subject, which is occasionally different from Pynchon's reference. Please see the very, very extensive history and discussion on this article and the related one. It's all been discussed before. Please review WP:CIV. Noroton 05:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I expect to be able to give my own opinion here, independent of what others may have said, and even if I know myself to be in a very small minority. if we come to opposite conclusions it does not imply that either of us is uncivil. DGG 01:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I said precisely what I thought was (mildly) uncivil and put it in quotes, and it wasn't the fact that we disagreed. You are, of course, entitled to reinvent the wheel as many times as you want, but you'd save us both trouble if you bothered to see the past discussion in the talk pages of both articles about the book.Noroton 02:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to something like References in Pynchon's Against the Day. With all due respect to the compilers, it really is absurd to label Paris, Colorado, Marco Polo and the year 1900 "abstruse topics". That's more a problem with the title than with the content, though. The article would also benefit from some trimming -- rather than listing every single year covered by the narrative, it could simply give a range and let people follow the links from year to year if they want to -- but that's an editorial matter that doesn't require AFD. —Cel ithemis 07:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very open to a name change and to a different way of presenting the years. The only reason there are year links in the article is to help readers who may not be familiar with the fact that Wikipedia has year articles and to make it as easy as possible for people to get to them. I'm putting that suggestion for a name change on the article's talk page. Noroton 17:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Talk:Abstruse topics in Pynchon's Against the Day#Changing the article name. Noroton 18:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It seems it would be quite useful for a reader interested in researching the relevant topics in depth, and it's long enough to suggest that it's better as its own page than remerged into the main page for the book. Not every book should be treated the same, and it seems this particular book has a unique need for such a page. There are reasons why such a page should be edited, and improved upon, but not deleted or merged.zadignose 13:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.