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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

AONN Records

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AONN Records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Written almost entirely by a single user, full of language that is excessively complimentary, almost approaching the level of advertising copy. Very large claims are made that are completely unsupported by the sources. All external links are silly, including things like a facebook group with nine members.

The only easily found article about AONN in a mainstream source that is not simply a local CD review is the linked cnet article. The cnet article specifies that AONN, at least as a defense contractor as described in part of this article currently, simply does not exist whatsoever. The cnet article describes how AONN apparently successfully registered a .gov domain without justification; this may be notable enough to warrant inclusion on the wikipage for the .gov TLD, but does not establish notability for the organization.

AONN may exist in some form; several albums listed in the discography definitely do exist and list AONN Records. However, although I'm not entirely familiar with the music notability guidelines, I'm pretty confident that none of them have achieved any degree of notability. With the exception of a very small number of reviews of their releases in area papers, as far as I can tell there is no mention of AONN in any newspaper or anything else that would be classified as a reliable source.

AONN is not a registered company in Washington or Virginia, the two states mentioned on the page. (I ran AONN along with all of its listed synonyms through the state corporation and dba databases.) I know absence of registration may not mean much, but I would expect a media conglomerate as AONN is described as to be registered as a corporation. No major reliable source that I can find mentions AONN except in the context of the .gov registration or one or two cd reviews from 2000.

If AONN is deemed notable enough as a label to remain, I'll go through and delete all the confirmed incorrect info (like the defense contractor stuff,) but I've been unable to find solid evidence of it's notability even as a label.Kgorman-ucb

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is not one single piece of the AONN Records material that sounds complimentary.

Next, how do you know that their company AONN is not still conducting government contracting business to this day? If you were to gamble and wager your career, I would estimate that you would lose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Advanced research (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep

Did you ever think for a moment that the cnet article might in and of itself be fundamentally flawed? Perhaps your issue with the truth of the matter is that the cnet article from the start, consisted of misleading information because someone who contributed to the cnet "story" did not do his/her homework. There is nothing "silly" about the AONN Records article on Wikipedia. Your actions and your language bespeak a very sophomoric attitude. The notability of AONN Records was already established by Wikipedia in that KansasCali appeared on AONN Records November 12 Projekt track #19 titled, "I Didn't Know." The CD is available worldwide. " KansasCali who are now the Alternative Rock group called the Rocturnals." KansasCali is a Alternative rock group.

"History Both members belong to the production team Da Bookeez, in which they, along with E.Borders, have produced songs both individually and collectively. KansasCali has been featured in Billboard's 2005 Digital Entertainment & Media Awards.

Discography 2007: TV One's "I Dont Want To Be A Star" Starring George Willborn (Theme Song) Kicking It Old Skool (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack) Complicated 2006: My Book Haven (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack) 2005: Hello World CRASH Mr. & Mrs. Smith International Soundtrack Adults Only 2004: Food For Thought The Valet, The Bar, The Booth 2003: Appeared on 5 Compilation Records 2002: Better Dayz God's Son 2001: Appeared on AONN Records November 12 Projekt track #19 titled, "I Didn't Know" References ^ Digital Entertainment Awards"

AONN released a CD worldwide consisting of notable artists who have already been deemed notable by Wikipedia, thus making AONN Records a notable entity. Your denial of these very simple facts will simply lead to AONN Records history being further justified, reinforced and re-added to Wikipedia by multiple sources from around the world if the AONN Records article is ever deleted. Furthermore, AONN Records was and has been a legal government contracting entity despite your best efforts and attempts to suggest otherwise. Your lack of knowledge regarding the true nature of AONN Records and the company's related activities appears to be typical and characteristic of various third parties in media and other sectors who turned out to be incorrect regarding their initial assessment of AONN Records. If you do the proper research, you will find that AONN Records was never debarred from the business of government contracting and has been conducting said activities even to this day. Your college group is obviously not privy to certain information that can be easily found on the Internet. You ought to check your facts, as you have not conducted thorough research at the university and scholarly level on the subject of AONN Records.

There are far too many articles on Wikipedia that have been erroneously marked for speedy deletion and the AONN Records article is a prime example. There is absolutely nothing false about this article. All the references and sources check out. Next, the article is not in any way, shape, or form, written like an advertisement. The article is purely fact based. For user Kgorman to use the expression "bull" and even go so far as to indicate that "most of the article" is "bull" demonstrates that he is completely misinformed. Again, all the sources and references for the article check out. The following is one element of proof that the article is very encyclopedic and not false in any way: For example, if you follow the link from the AONN Records article to "KansasCali" you will see that the music group did in fact appear on a bona fide CD that is clearly being distributed worldwide and that is titled, "The November 12 Projekt," spelled with a 'k' just as I pointed out. Therefore, it is obvious to anyone at that point, that AONN Records is a real company with factual business standing and with the capability of releasing physical and digital musical material worldwide since the year 2000, as one can see from their company's multiple CD releases over the past ten years. It was already determined by Wikipedia to keep the related article on KansasCali that had been marked for deletion as far back as 2007. Thus, if the KansasCali article was deemed to have been true, then we can easily see and deduce that KansasCali truly appeared on a CD by a company called AONN Records. AONN Records material can be found in Amazon's database as well as the databases of what I have found to be hundreds, if not thousands, of music retailers form around the world. So, (A) AONN Records is obviously a real entity (B) Major artists who have had music on Hollywood Soundtracks such as KansasCali having appeared on the CRASH movie soundtrack, have also appeared on AONN Records albums (C) AONN Records has been interviewed by FOXNews, apparently CNN and other media bureaus, so again, there are clearly legitimate references to a company that appears to be exactly what the article says it is.

For Kgorman to claim that "most of the AONN Records" article is "bull" is irresponsible on his part and illustrates the fact that he has not done his homework. AONN Records is clearly a real entity dating back at least 11 years regardless of Kgorman's lack of knowledge about the entity. Looking at Kgorman's profile, one can see that he is a member of a UC Berkeley group that purports to deal with issues of piracy. Despite Kgorman's group's stated intent to instill good in the world, he has apparently jumped the gun on this one, with regard to the AONN Records article that is clearly, factually, referenced and supported by crystal clear evidence of truth. In fact, not one iota of the AONN Records article is untrue. It is one hundred percent true. Kgorman is completely, entirely, one hundred percent incorrect and his initial thoughts on the matter are purely subjective, opinionated, baseless, without substantiation and entirely of his own mind. The bottom line is that he is wrong and the AONN Records article is absolutely scholarly, based on true facts, referenced, supported by real world empirical evidence and has even been mentioned on CNN and FOXNews, not to mention that we can all see that AONN company's products being available worldwide for over an entire decade, at least by checking the copyright information dating back to at least the year 2000--over ten years. Wikipedia is supposed to be about truth, not about the personal opinions of contributors who do not properly source their information and then make such statements that are highly opinionated such as the absurd statement made by Kgorman in which he wrote "the AONN article is mostly bull."

Conversely, the AONN Records article is not only completely, one hundred percent backed up by solid facts, but it is also very well written, not in any way written like an advertisement, and it gives only the facts. The article is unbiased, without conflict of interest, and the article does not embellish the AONN company. The article merely points out the AONN media groups obvious history. Again, it cannot be disputed that the AONN company and conglomerate have been mentioned by major media sources and major news networks. AONN Records is verified, evidently legitimate and has an ostensible history that makes sense to those of us who have conducted proper research on the topic. In conclusion, KansasCali's article was deemed true by Wiki after a similar dispute, it is very clear and quite obvious from Amazon and thousands of other Web sites that KansasCali does in fact appear on AONN records material, so not only is Kgorman's analysis wrong, but his analysis is completely wrong and not well researched at all. AONN Records appears to be a very real entity with a very complex history that turns out to be one hundred percent verifiable and apparently legitimate. The media company's somewhat controversial nature so many years ago in the minds of some reporters as can be seen from some of the articles in the search engines has no bearing on whether AONN Records and the media group are real entities. They are clearly real entities. If Wikipedia is about truth, then Kgorman's initial assessment was hasty, was/is very wrong and nowhere near the real truth. AONN Records clearly deserves a place in Wikipedia given the absolute fact that it is absolutely a real entity with over one hundred artists signed to the company, which is exactly what the packaging data indicates when one does his/her proper research at Amazon dot com and thousands of other legitimate retailers carrying legitimate product for over a decade from a legitimate company that has been in existence for at least a decade from what the real world evidence proves.

There is zero conflict of interest. Kgorman's analysis is meta-faulty. Bromanski has not addressed Kgorman's so-called "in-depth" analysis of AONN Records despite Bromanski's list of word frequency. I gave a proper rebuttal which annihilates Kgorman's ridiculous claim that the AONN Records article is mostly "bull." Bromanski simply sidestepped the larger issue of whether AONN is actual and deferred to a pointless word counter of which the latter has nothing in the universe of space-time to do with the reality that AONN is a genuine entity. There appears to be some collusion here in regard to Bromanski going out of his way in a bizarre attempt to lead one to believe that AONN is not an authentic company with a more than ten year history.

2625 COLBY AVENUE, SUITE 3-158 EVERETT, WA 98201

Services Offered

AdvancedAnnualAssessmentBudgetClassifiedConsultingCounterterrorismDefenseDevelopmentInformationsecurity IntelligenceNationalsecurityResearchRevenueRiskScienceStudiesTechnologyThreat Business Information

In Business Since: 1995 Ownership: Minority Owned Business Sector: Government Contract, Commercial

In terms of your class discussion about the topic of AONN the company's related defense contracting activities, AONN Records seems to be and seems to have been conducting certain legitimate government contract related activities of which you and your classmates are unaware. Again, the notability of AONN was long ago established quite simply by the artists who appear on AONN Records materials as illustrated above. On the other hand, the pretentious attitudes of your peers and highly misinformed colleagues, demonstrates your lack of true knowledge of this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Advanced research (talk • contribs) 14:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. I can not find any third party sources that cover this in detail. Skin deep is a trivial mention and can't work to N. vI can't find any g-news hits and all of the google hits are not RSes. The cited cnet article claim the company does not exist.

For the remainder of this discussion can we please all be civil and limit our replies to a reasonable length --Guerillero | My Talk 00:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Article has been cleaned up since creation and is styled appropriately, but I cannot find sufficient sources to show it has achieved any kind of recognition that suggests it meets our criteria as an encyclopedic subject. There is almost no sign of the world taking actual note of it in a significant way either as a media company (WP:N) or a controversy (WP:NOT#NEWS), or "enduring notability" (WP:NOT), nor any other criterion that suggests it is a significant media company for Wikipedia purposes. Lots of self-pub and promotion websites of a WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE nature (myspace, mp3.com etc), next to no hard recognition in terms of cites showing significant editorial coverage and focus within reliable independent sources. FT2 (Talk | email) 00:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep
— Duplicate !vote: Advanced research (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.(left by Guerillero | My Talk 16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]

In terms of the above parties who are in favor of deletion, none of them has conducted proper research. Did you ever think for a moment that the cnet article might in and of itself be fundamentally flawed? The cnet article is not accurate and is actually quite misleading. AONN Records is a registered company and has been all along.

(A) AONN Records is obviously a real entity (B) Major artists who have had music on Hollywood Soundtracks such as KansasCali having appeared on the CRASH movie soundtrack, have also appeared on AONN Records albums (C) AONN Records has been interviewed by FOXNews, apparently CNN and other media bureaus, so again, there are clearly legitimate references to a company that appears to be exactly what the article says it is.

The notability of AONN Records was already established by Wikipedia in that KansasCali appeared on AONN Records November 12 Projekt track #19 titled, "I Didn't Know." The CD is available worldwide." KansasCali are now the Alternative Rock group called the Rocturnals and are linked to AONN Records on Wikipedia.

KansasCali has been featured in Billboard's 2005 Digital Entertainment & Media Awards.

It was already determined by Wikipedia that KansasCali meets Wikipedia's standards of notability through a similar dispute. Therefore, there should be no dispute regarding AONN Records. Aside from any controversy and confusion on part of third parties who are unaware of AONN Records history, AONN Records has more than established its notability with the association of KansasCali which was already deemed notable by way of a previous Wikipedia dispute.

It is asinine for anyone to try to make the claim that AONN Records is not notable based simply on the notion that certain third parties who are nonexperts are unable to find certain information about a company that is already deemed notable by way of its association with artists who were already deemed notable by Wikipedia standards back in 2007. There should have never been a dispute as to AONN Records notability.

See Wikipedia entry and notes for "KansasCali" and notice that KansasCali was signed by AONN Records for the November 12 Projekt, which was released worldwide with radio play for the single, "I Didn't Know." Furthermore, KansasCali has been on 2 major, Hollywood soundtracks, (1) CRASH (2) Mr. & Mrs. Smith

  • Keep
— Duplicate !vote: Advanced research (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.(left by Guerillero | My Talk 16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]

User FT2 is just plain wrong. AONN Records material is sold on MSN by the Microsoft Network, Bank of America, Virgin Mobile, Virgin Records, SONY Records, SONY DADC, Interscope/Interscope Digital, Amazon, HMV Canada, Tower Records, Rhaphsody, and HUNDREDS of other companies in over 150 different countries.

AONN Records material is sold in 150 countries and carried by some of the largest networks in the United States, including the Microsoft Corporation as stated above. Furthermore, AONN Records is more than notable, as the media company's materials are sold and found on literally thousands of Web sites around the world:

http://www.answers.com/topic/aonn-records-presents-the-november-12-projekt-2001-album-by-washington-state-original-artists

Ease Your Pain Rap by Doug Crawford of AONN Records Canada ... Sep 4, 2010 ... The new Canadian Boy Band/Rap Group has arrived ... canadian rap music muchmusic tv factor television bbc mtv canada hip hop r&b toronto ... www.astamusictv.com/.../ease-your-pain-rap-by-doug-crawford-of-aonn-records-canada-executive-producer-robert-taylor/ - Cached ► Aonn Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt by Washington State ... Before We Retaliate [EXPLICIT] On: Aonn Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt By: 495, One Sir Grove Of Evt, Mr. Brocklie, Spank Muthafu*Kin' T ... music.napster.com/dolemite-music/.../aonn-records...12.../10748019 - Cached AONN Records Canada-U.S. - DJ Sets and Tracks - Free music on PLAY.FM Tracks: Introduction, Can't Fucc wit U, So Serious, Jeepers Creepers Sneakers, Don't Be No Fool, Why?, Smokers Only, Land of the Strange, Reality, ... www.play.fm/label/aonnrecordscanadaus - Cached Rap & Hip Hop CD Results for Aonn Records Label at Tower.com Find Aonn Records label Rap & Hip Hop music on CD when you shop at Tower Records and browse CD reviews, track listings, album cover art, song samples and ... www.tower.com/.../aonn-records&cat101=88&facet=1100&cat102=4520&format=6 - Cached Politech: FC: More on AONN.gov: Feds pull plug on "cyberwarfare ... Feb 5, 2003 ... ""AONN Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt." Artists were selected from among those who proved to have exceptional performance ... seclists.org/politech/2003/Feb/22 AONN Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt by Washington State ... Nov 12, 2010 ... Listen to AONN Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt by Washington State Original... FREE on Rhapsody.com. Rhapsody lets you explore ... www.rhapsody.com/.../aonn-records-presents-the-november-12-projekt - Cached AONN Records / The Orchard mp3s, AONN Records / The Orchard music ... Download AONN Records / The Orchard albums and specific songs. eMusic also has compilations such as greatest hits and rare classic albums. www.emusic.com/label/AONN-Records-The...MP3.../109411.html - Cached Shopzilla - Find low prices on Aonn Records Presents: The November ... Shop online for Aonn Records Presents: The NOvember 12 Projekt by Washington State Original Artists (CD - 03/06/2001 and compare prices. www.shopzilla.com/aonn-records-presents-the...12.../compare - Cached soundclick artist: aonnrecords - AONN Records was created and ... AONN Records was created and licensed in 1995 by a group of young, scientific prodigies and philosophers working in multimedia, military defense security ... www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=453233...id... - Cached Aonn Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt by Various Artists ... Mar 6, 2001 ... Preview and download songs from Aonn Records Presents: The November 12 Projekt by Various Artists on itunes. Buy Aonn Records Presents: The ... itunes.apple.com/gb/.../aonn-records.../id4589668 - United Kingdom -

AONN Records is more notable than most independent record/media companies that are listed in Wikipedia. There has been both controversy and positive media reports that collectively satisfy and meet Wikipedia's standards of notability. Again, the notion that AONN Records media company not being notable is ridiculous and quite absurd.

It was already determined by Wikipedia that KansasCali meets Wikipedia's standards of notability through a similar dispute. Therefore, there should be no dispute regarding AONN Records. Aside from any controversy and confusion on part of third parties who are unaware of AONN Records history, AONN Records has more than established its notability with the association of KansasCali which was already deemed notable by way of a previous Wikipedia dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Advanced research (talk • contribs) 15:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notability is not inherited. We establish notability based on coverage by independent outlets. Album sales via a distribution company have no relationship to notability. I am striking out your second !vote because you voted twice. --Guerillero | My Talk 16:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep It is asinine for anyone to try to make the claim that AONN Records is not notable based simply on the notion that certain third parties who are nonexperts are unable to find certain information about a company that is already deemed notable by way of its association with artists who were already deemed notable by Wikipedia standards back in 2007. There should have never been a dispute as to AONN Records notability.

    See Wikipedia entry and notes for "KansasCali" and notice that KansasCali was signed by AONN Records for the November 12 Projekt, which was released worldwide with radio play for the single, "I Didn't Know." Furthermore, KansasCali has been on 2 major, Hollywood soundtracks, (1) CRASH (2) Mr. & Mrs. Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Advanced research (talk • contribs) 05:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    — Duplicate !vote: Advanced research (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.(left by FT2 (Talk | email) 12:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Users here are not "making a claim" it is non-notable. We are saying that no evidence in reliable sources that meets our standards for notability has been shown to us. We can't consider claims of evidence if we have not actually verified it ourselves (between us), and the evidence that has been shown so far is very weak.
  1. A group "KansasCali" appeared on the label. Our policy is that notability is not inherited. The fact a group may be notable does not make the label signing it notable.
  2. A CNET article on a .gov website with a one sentence mention that "some have suggested it is a spoof [by AONN media]" apparently due to the similarity of name. Nothing more, no evidence it gained wide coverage as a controversy, and does not show that AONN media itself has gained "significant coverage" (WP:N) or that this matter has "enduring notability" (WP:NOT#NEWS). Non-major news items are almost never within our criteria
  3. A book (itself not notable on interracial America) with a chapter on Robert Lee Taylor III. AONN is mantioned in one sentence, and then only because he was its CEO. AONN does not get "significant coverage" in "independent reliable sources" here either.
AONN is a music (media) company. It releases and publicizes records round the world, and it signs artists, which is what media companies do. Doing these things (like publishing albums or signing bands etc) is not evidence of notability, it's just what music businesses do. "Significant coverage" is quite a demanding term, and excludes a lot of poor quality coverage. There is no evidence in this discussion showing it has achieved "significant coverage" as a music company, or alternatively that the AONN.GOV issue has obtained "significant coverage" as a controversy. Last, as I commented on the article's talk page, we are not doing investigative journalism here, or parading supposed "government secrets" to the world unless the secrets have themselves gained significant coverage in a way we can verify (by seeing enough examples of coverage to convince users here that it is so). If something or some company has not already gained "significant coverage" in sources we can verify, then we don't cover it either. FT2 (Talk | email) 12:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, hey, there you have it. It makes perfect sense now as to why Wikipedia is not considered scholarly, is untrusted, is unreliable and is not allowed by most accredited universities in North America as an accurate source of information. The above arguments regarding non-notability of the media company I wrote about are preposterous.

It appears as if Wikipedia editors will believe any newspaper article they read from any source and that a vast majority of Wikipedian's have nothing to do but create their own comfortable versions of what they believe to be reality.

OK, so you have your consensus. One guy says AONN is non-notable. Another guy comes along as says that the question is not about non-notability. Another person says that he/she believes everything written in the cnet article even though it has been explained a thousand times that the cnet article was inaccurate from the very beginning. Then, someone else comes along and says that a media company that has material selling on thousands of Web sites around the world still does not meet notability. Then, someone else chimes in and says that AONN Records never existed, even though the truth is that the AONN media company has done more than most of the truly non-notable and so-called independent record companies that are already listed with Wikipedia and that have never been disputed.

So, there it is: AONN Records never really existed (according to Wikipedia), was not/is not a real media company (according to Wikipedia) and has no notability by Wikipedia standards because some girl in San Francisco does not know how to properly search government databases for business listings and/or government contract companies.

Alright, Wikipedia's own brand of logic has opined once again. Live in denial of facts and write off AONN Records in some false way for your audience. I will keep a backup copy of these transcripts so that when the AONN media company further emerges as a major force in the world of media and entertainment which is inevitable, the world will know and see how Wikipedia tried to disrespect the AONN conglomerate. Again, this is why Ph.D.s, professors, institutions of higher learning, degreed persons and other scholars for the most part, do not allow Wikipedia to be cited in scholarly papers because Wikipedia has a tendency to delete, edit and modify true history for its own collective agenda, which is to put a warped spin and false stamp on otherwise true history.

The world has your usernames. Have fun boys and girls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Advanced research (talk • contribs) 18:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The existence of a company is not sufficient to establish notability. AONN Records may well exist (I have no reason to doubt that, actually), but that doesn't mean it is a "notable" topic by Wikipedia's standards. Please review these guidelines to see why we do not believe it is notable.
As for why Wikipedia can't be cited in papers, that has nothing to do with reliability, it has to do with the fact that Wikipedia, like all encyclopedias, is a tertiary source, and tertiary sources are rarely allowed in papers. You couldn't cite Encyclopedia Britannica any more than you could cite Wikipedia. Also, kindly refrain from attacking or insulting other editors. Fletch the Mighty (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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