User talk:Peguin blue/sandbox

Draft SCG SGP article (1)

Chatzy had corrupted your link by turning :P into a smiley, but I don't let little things like that bother me.

A good start. I think it's better if I post here and leave you to edit the article. I've "nowiki"ed a lot of stuff to make it readable outside Edit mode.

1. You did well to find the right infobox. Don't worry about the photo yet. I always add it last, once there's an article in place – uploaded pictures are reviewed separately from articles. It's also a very fiddly job.
2. Add this just above the infobox, as an instruction to future editors: {{use dmy dates|date=March 2016}}.
3. The article name should be boldfaced on first appearance – enclose in '''...'''.
4. "External links" should come after "References". (a) That's a better name than "External references". (b) Except for proper nouns, only the first word in a section title should be capitalised.
5. "References" needs to have {{reflist}} on the next line, to make sure they appear in the right place.
6. A page to bookmark: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout.
7. <ref>...</ref> should be either (a) placed after a punctuation mark (best) or (b) single-spaced from the preceding word.
8. How to make citations look pretty (1). {{Allmusic |class=artist |id=schola-gregoriana-pragensis-mn0001684934 |label=Schola Gregoriana Pragensis |accessdate=4 March 2016}}. Template:AllMusic.
9. How to make citations look pretty (2). {{discogs artist |id=1556899-Schola-Gregoriana-Pragensis |name=Schola Gregoriana Pragensis}} (the discogs templates don't support accessdate). Template:Discogs.
10. How to make citations look pretty (3). There's a big group of "cite" templates. The most useful one is Template:Cite web. I'd include the Supraphon link like this: {{cite web |url=http://www.supraphon.com/en/artists/?item=47 |website=[[Supraphon]] |title=Schola Gregoriana Pragensis |accessdate=4 March 2016}} You might also find Template:cite journal useful.
11. I see you've sussed out <ref name=allmusic /> etc. FYI there are ways of having more than one group of references, and of adding page numbers to individual in-text references when it matters.
12. Categories. These come right at the end. Inside a sandbox or on a talk page, place a colon after the opening double square bracket (or that page will appear in the category, to general annoyance); remove it when uploading. Here's a few:

Category:Musical groups established in 1987

Category:Czech choirs

Category:Musical groups from Prague

Category:Professional a cappella groups

That's enough to be getting along with for now. If you'd like me to look at something, post in here using {{reply to|Narky Blert}} and I'll get a message. It's best to add to rather than to edit talk pages, to keep a record. Narky Blert (talk) 15:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

I broke my rule, and edited the Recordings section. New tag {{expand list}} (which you didn't know about), and move refs into the Reference section.

NB I indented this edit using colons, and signed it, so that you can keep track.

I also edited this section's header to correct my cock-up, using strike-out rather than delete. Narky Blert (talk) 01:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

I also took the liberty of renaming "Recordings" to "Discography". Narky Blert (talk) 02:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Draft SGP article (2)

1. I see you added another two categories. I edited, to remove underlines from the links.
2. External links should be bulleted (*) not numbered.
3. ELs 2 and 3 (as they now are) are full references, and should be in the main text not as ELs.
4. Allmusic and Discogs should be added as ELs, independently of their status as references. As ELs, they are of general interest and dynamic. As references, they support factual statements in the text.
5. Supraphon and official site can be added as references at the head of Discography - they're reliable sources for it.
6. In Discography, I suggest replacing "date - album" with "date{{snd}}''album''" for more uniform appearance. Wiki likes {{ndash}} and {{snd}} for unspaced and spaced n-dashes respectively.
7. I suggest moving all the lead section ("lede", natch) bar the first sentence into the main body. A possible amended lede: Schola Gregoriana Pragensis (English: The Gregorian School of Prague) is an a cappella male voice choir from the Czech Republic, founded in 1987 by David Eben. Their core repertoire consists of Gregorian chant, Bohemian plainchant, and early polyphony, but they also perform modern works including some composed for them.
8. I suggest splitting the Description section in two: (1) David Eben (2) Schola Gregoriana Pragensis. DE is an important enough figure to deserve a full write-up, but so closely associated with SGP that he probably doesn't need his own article. He does, however, deserve his own infobox. With everything in one place, it would be dead easy to create an article about him in future. I've bolded his name in my draft lede to mark him as an important sub-topic within SGP.
9. Mods to EL No. 3:

{{cite journal | last = Kučírková | first = Kristýna | date = 2007 | title = Schola Gregoriana Pragensis versus Svatomichalská gregoriánská schola aneb Dva způsoby poučené interpretace | url = http://www.muni.cz/research/publications/743334 | journal = Teoretické reflexe hudební výchovy | publisher = [[Masarykova univerzita]] | location = [[Brno]] | language = Czech | volume = 3 | issue = 1 | issn = 1803-1331 | access-date= 5 March 2016 }} Title in English: ''Schola Gregoriana Pragensis versus Svatomichalská gregoriánská schola, two ways of interpretation''

It's coming together well. Narky Blert (talk) 16:51, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

1. Why the SGP website is an OK source for facts Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves.
2. Check the categories for associated list pages, like this one List of early music ensembles, and add SGP either before or after posting the article.
3. You should add these to the new article's Talk Page asap after creation: {{WikiProject Classical music}} and {{WikiProject Biography |living=yes |class=stub |musician-work-group=yes |musician-priority=low}} and {{WikiProject Czech Republic |class=start |importance=low}}. (Stub for the biog, start for the whole article – which is about as high as most articles ever get.) Narky Blert (talk) 21:00, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

SGP Article reply (1)

@Narky Blert:It's coming together with your expert guidance. It's fun to see this taking shape and becoming both more sophisticated and more convincing as an encyclopaedia article. I also appreciate the suggested lede. It's difficult to come up with good words, so an extra voice is a lot of help.

I've had another hack at description, but what I've done is pretty minimal. I'm not sure if this was the kind of thing being suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peguin blue (talk • contribs) 07:17, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Brood on the article. Imagine you're someone who's vaguely heard the name of the group, or of David Eben, and wants to learn more.

Expert = I've made those mistakes. (Also: X is the unknown factor, and a spurt is a drip under pressure.)

I showed you that new article I was pleased with ... since then I've found two new citations lol&ffs ...

I doubt you'll find anything useful for SGP, but the religious history of Bohemia is interesting (and fairly well written up on Wiki). It was home to one of the earliest Protestant movements, under Jan Hus; which was pretty much wiped out (with considerable atrocity) during the Thirty Years War (1618–48). Narky Blert (talk) 02:37, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

This is getting close to issues only of personal style, where I don't like to intervene.

{{ping}} me, or get in touch another way, if you'd like a final review for polish, or a critical savaging, before posting. Narky Blert (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Draft SGP article (3)

1. I've made a few minor tweaks. Most should be more or less self-explanatory. Use "compare versions" to see what I've done.
2. The neater way of reusing name refs is <ref name=whatever />. The space before / is required. Quotation marks are needed if part of the defined name. (You can define names without quotes, so long as they don't contain spaces (I think).)
3. I've hit you with a couple of "citation needed"s, which should be resolved before posting. Subjective judgments need to be supported by reliable sources.
4. Without evidence that they were able to expand their repertoire because of the Velvet Revolution, that idea is WP:OR. I softened the statement to a simple comparison of dates; a fact from which readers can draw conclusions if they wish.
5. I've removed a couple of duplicate bluelinks (which are deprecated except in long articles). I've also added a few more.
6. I've tweaked date statements a little, to indicate the date of the article.
7. Details (year, what for) of awards would be useful. Some are noted on Stanislav Predota's site.
8. It would be useful to fill in missing years in the Discography. It would also be useful to include label and catalogue numbers. SP may help here too. Discogs and Allmusic are other useful sources, and I'd be tempted to include information and refs from them where available. I've done Rosa Mystica and Antica e moderna as models. Amazon can be another useful source for publication details.

Narky Blert (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

David Eben

I think you've got enough to justify splitting him out into an article of his own. I'd copy the relevant bit out of SGP back into your sandbox to check everything works, and then create a page. You'll need to de-boldface the first mention of him in SGP and bluelink it. You'll also want these for the article (they look clearer in edit mode): {{DEFAULTSORT:Eben, David}} [[Category:1965 births]] [[Category:People from Prague]] [[Category:Czech musicologists]] [[Category:Czech choirmasters]] [[Category:Clarinetists]] [[Category:Living persons]] and these for the talk page: {{WP Biography | living = yes | class = start | listas = Eben, David | musician-work-group = yes | musician-priority = low | needs-photo = yes }} {{WP Classical Music |class=start |importance=low}}

There's already a pic of him on Wiki, see cs:David Eben - and the creator has sportingly waived copyright. You can use it without worry. If you can get it to work, delete the "needs-photo" line in the WP Biog template.

David is on the disambiguation page Eben. When you post the article, you should remove the link to SGP on that page - the general rule for DAB pages is one bluelink/entry.

You'll also need to cross-link the English and Czech articles. It's pretty straightforward, just click on the Languages button. You may need to add links in both directions.

"Clarinetists" is a broad category. There should be one for "Czech classical clarinets". If you post the biog, I'll show you how to make that category. Narky Blert (talk) 18:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)