User talk:Dodona/Archive 1

Apology?

Well, okay, Dodona, your apology [1] is appreciated. But having seen your editing for a year or so now, I have my doubts when you say you will "do your best" "to create an atmosphere of collaboration and to contribute decently". Do you understand what it means to contribute constructively? Let's ask like this: If your previous editing throughout the last year was somehow not constructive, then what are you now planning to do differently? Can you give me a concrete description of what kinds of constructive edits you want to be doing? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for accepting my apology, of course my own part because you know I am not the devil and the other angels.

I will try to understand that the other may have different views or reasons to believe other points, therefore, first I will be sure that everything is sourced, secondly I will try to convince the others of my point and keep the equilibrium of contra version points, editors and sources. I will be open to change my views if I find them wrong or if the others convince me. I will do my part to create good relation and appreciate others knowledge and not to discriminate anyone no matter the level or the race. Dodona --Burra (talk) 14:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, first of all, why did you create yet another new account? D'oh, for once I had not immediately blocked the latest one, you could have continued using that. Please, before we talk on, the first thing you need to promise is that you'll choose one account and stick with that, come what may. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I would like to keep the account Dodona but i can not create such account, I must say good job , so I will keep Burra and I will subscribe also Dodona if you do not mind. Please release all the computer accounts you have banned, I will keep my “legal” account… :) --Burra (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The account User:Dodona exists but was never used by the person who registered it. If we can come to an agreement about unbanning here, I could later help you getting the Dodona account, since you're fond of that name. Okay, for the moment, "Burra". I will move this page over to User talk:Burra and we'll continue talking there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I appreciate ...Dodona

Well, do we have an agreement?? I mean BESA! --Burra (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Yeah, talking about "Besa"... Here's my proposal:

• We'll try and get another uninvolved admin to act as a "mentor" for you. They'll give you advice on how to edit constructively, and they will decide if you can be unblocked or must be blocked again.
• You need to promise, from now on, that you will observe all the Wikipedia rules, including that of observing blocks and bans. If the mentor or other admins should finally decide for some reason that they ban you again, you promise you will accept that and not start sockpuppeting again. This is on your word of honour (Here's where besa really comes in, you see.) I myself will leave these decisions to them.
• In practice, I'd suggest the following rule for your editing:
  • You must promise you won't start off-topic discussions on talk pages unrelated to concrete suggestions about an article.
  • Before you edit anything on any article relating to Albanians, Arvanites, Illyrians or Pelasgians, you must first present a concrete proposal on the talk page. Like for example: "I propose to insert the following sentence in the 2nd paragraph: '...' My source for this is: ...". Then you wait that other users can check whether your edit is relevant, whether the source is reliable, and whether the source actually supports what you are claiming. If there should be consensus among the other editors that your edit is problematic, you will not make it.
  • If you engage in repetitive, unsourced or otherwise disruptive discussion, editing against consensus or edit-warring, your mentor is likely to step in and stop you.

Would that be worth a try? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not lifting the blocks on your other accounts - when we get to an agreement here, I'll try and do something to the IP blocks so you won't be getting caught in autoblocks from the old blocks. The blocks on the other accounts shouldn't be affecting you.

I know the meaning of Besa and also “levendi”, the rules you are proposing are strict, I will see who the Mentor I probably wish to be Deucalionite. I will discuss the staff first with him, he seems very educated and with good spirit but what if he can change and this a problem, any way I like to trust him. What about that we may have a contradiction in interest for instance he try to prove the opposite--Burra (talk) 16:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, Deucalionite, that's funny ;-) Him of all people... I guess what I really want first is the opinion of some fellow admins. I've asked over at WP:AN, let's see if we can find somebody. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Not for all but for me he will accept,I want him and no body else he seems understandable and about the staff how you described me I consider very offensive , I do not propose anything strange and my English as not native is not that terrible , so would like s.b that knows me also educated and developed enough and not some dog- watch person that you will propose in your WANTED page --Burra (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Honesty , I do not consider your proposal decent, if you accept me like any other user it is ok , otherwise we will continue as before and you will try to get me in multiple users and computers , you can watch me if you want but will not be any such a mentor ,in the meaning you propose, we have an agreement for the other part with one condition that must be balance between the editors and not only from one side and the same editors., the balance is very much disputed in any metion articles and you have a role for that one--Burra (talk) 17:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

A pity you don't like my proposal. Of course, those very restrictive rules would only be for a start, to see how it works. Feel free to go over to WP:AN and ask for more input from other administrators, I don't want to decide this alone anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I will accept your proposal and Deucalionite as Mentor but the balance in Albania related articles must come back by independent administrators and the balance by different opinion of editors [2],sorry but this must be done otherwise i will be return in a dull.Dodona --Burra (talk) 16:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be only too happy if some other administrator would start watching these articles. As for balance, I think you got something wrong: I'm not a Greek editor trying to suppress Albanians. Heck, I'm not Greek or Albanian or Arvanite or anything, not a drop of blood of any of those in my veins. I'm German, as it happens. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but this is my opinion I do not want to disturb you and I think you have very much value as administrator, but the balance is not kept maybe is not your fall and this is my opinion now. What ever you are, honor be with you , and I am originally Macedonian Albanian and Christian orthodox if you care but with very mix religious family.Why they call you L.. any way sorry for asking ... Cheers Dodona--Burra (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked for the Mentor , no body seems to care for the edits to the administrator notice board . So we resolve the issue Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I understand and i am sorry but you did insult me first WP: AN, I just I want to be sure that the balance will be certain I did not mean to insult anyone and the mostly you both.Dodona --Burra (talk) 11:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll do my best to keep good balance of views on those articles, that's for certain. But we can only go ahead with you editing if we get some other neutral administrator to watch, that's our problem now. So far, I'm afraid their silence on the WP:AN page means people have the impression it's not even worth trying. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is your way how you served the case , all you are interested is me under control, how you gone keep the balance when there are only Greek passionately contributing, is not decent how you turn the case , that is what you think that i am not worthy. I can become even more capable then you because i have Hellenic blood from those of Alexander The Great ,Pirro Burri and so on …Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I don't doubt you are a capable and overall great guy :-) The problem, to tell you the truth, is mainly your English. I hate to say this because I don't want to offend you, but your English is really not good enough to make meaningful contributions here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks :)!I know is just my temper , that is what i must take from Greek. Allow me to edit then and my English will get better , after all you know it is the references that matter the language comes naturally after , you did not answer my question about the fact that you have only Greek editors does not bother you at all, or you are comfortable with that , don’t you think that there is another side of coin ?!Dodona --Burra (talk) 19:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes, I've often thought it's a pity we don't get more Albanian contributors. There must be some things the Albanian perspective has to contribute. But it's the language thing. There's lots of highly educated Greek contributors with good academic backgrounds and language skills. We hardly ever get such people from Albania here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I tell you mostly they do not care, we have educated individuals , the academics have other problems , the state does not care or I believe makes the opposite, for instance in Kosova and else are Albanologic institutes that exist and work much better then in Albanian itself. After all nothing is organized although the references are enormous, even an an educated person from Albania can oppose the bets Greek academic. I think the situation will change form those educated overseas, even a Greek which lives overseas thinks much different and has a different mentality . Dodona --Burra (talk) 11:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I expect you to let me to edit, I will appreciate your assistance Dodona --Burra (talk) 11:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

References

“Greci” Arberesh village in south of Italy. DioGuardi ( Congressman from USA) and his wife, Shirley, offered to accompany me back to Greci, a somnolent village among the golden wheat fields of Campania. About the only Arberesh-Albanian DioGuardi remembers is "Gjaku i shprishur," which means, approximately, "Our scattered blood." But it was a magic greeting, enough to light up many eyes and get DioGuardi a bear hug from Giovanni Pucci, a retired grocer who shares a great-grandfather with him. /"I may be an American, with both parents from Italy," DioGuardi said, "but I now have an Albanian heart." Reference ALBANIANS A PEOPLE UNDONE Priit J. Vesilind Source:National Geographic 197.2 (Feb 2000): p.52

If Albanians do not speak quite the same language, then how robust is the case for a Greater Albania? Albanian unity, and the making of a Greater Albania that would embrace today's Albania, Kosovo and the western chunk of Macedonia, is not on the political agenda--yet. But it will be, sooner or later. The government in Tirana, Albania's capital, is already urging that the school curricula of Albania and Kosovo be merged. A pragmatic gesture? Or the first post-war step towards a Greater Albania? :"The great ethnic-Albanian taboo." The Economist (US) 354.8152 (Jan 8, 2000

A Greek friend in Athens claimed a liberal attitude toward Albanians but expressed only dark thoughts about them. "The police blotters are so filled with Albanian names, you wonder if there is something in their national character that makes Albanians criminals,' he said. "They work as delivery boys and farm laborers or in construction--in positions where you don't have to let them into your house."/He knew many well-educated Albanians, but they were all underemployed. /"I have an Albanian cleaning lady with a university degree in chemistry," he said. "Her husband is a lawyer back in Albania." . /Official Greek statistics do not bear out the dire perceptions. Even though many Albanians live in extreme poverty in Greece, the crime rate among Albanian immigrants is about the same as for native Greeks Reference ALBANIANS A PEOPLE UNDONE Priit J. Vesilind Source:National Geographic 197.2 (Feb 2000): p.52. (3795 words)

Eight Y chromosome short tandem repeat (STR) polymorphisms (DYS 19, DYS385, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, and DYS393) were analyzed in the sample of 117 unrelated Albanian males living in Kosovo. A general STR allelic frequency pattern in the Albanian population from Kosovo corresponds to other European populations. Fourty six haplotypes were observed in single copy. The most frequent haplotypes were (DYS19-DYS385-DYS389I-DYS389II-DYS390-YS391DYS392-DYS393) 14-11/11-13-29-24-11-13-13 (10.26%), 14-14/17-12-28-24-10-11-12 (9.40%), 13-16/18-13-30-24-10-1113 (9.40%), and 14-17/17-13-31-24-10-11-13 (9.40%). Y chromosome haplotypes in Albanian population from Kosovo. Author(s):Marijana Pericic, Lovorka Barac Lauc, Irena Martinovic Klaric, Ibrahim Behluli, Pavao Rudan and Branka Janicijevic.Source:Forensic Science International 146.1 (Nov 10, 2004): p.61

The L. Græc is ad. Gr. , said by Aristotle (Meteor. I. xiv) to have been the prehistoric name of the Hellenes in their original seats in Epirus. The word is app. an adjectival derivative of Graius, which is used in Latin as a poetical synonym of Græcus. Recent scholars think the name may have been brought to Italy by colonists from Eub a, where there is some evidence of its having existed: see Busolt Gr. Gesch. I.2 198. reference from Oxford English Dictionary 2007 , Catholic Encyclopedia

Athens was only citadel of Mycenaean time to survive in Hellenistic period and the claim Pelasgian ancestry "Pelasgians" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology Greek was not identified with any of the dialects, but by the early 3rd cent. the Athenians were reproached for behaving as if Greek and Attic were the same thing (Posidippus, fr. 30 R. Kassel and C. Austin)

Hellenized to learn speak Greek World. Ed. John Roberts. Oxford University Press, 2007. term used for Epiriotes which were partly Hellenized and annexed southern Illyria, Hellenized Epirote state but tried to emancipate Epirus from Macedon mention. "Pyrrhus(2) " Oxford Dictionary of the Classical World. Ed. John Roberts. Oxford University Press, 2007 by Plutarchus was described in his manuscript of Parallel Life as they speak a different language and the Greek language was learned; Macedonian and Epiriotes spoke the same language

Languages for which Illyrian origin is claimed or disputed are Venetic and Messapian in ancient Italy, Macedonian, and Albanian. Macedonian, that is, the native speech of the Macedonians as distinguished from the Attic which they came to adopt as their official language1933 C. D. BUCK Compar. Gram. Greek & Latin

It is to be assumed that the Macedonian dialect (or language) succumbed to Attic Greek..during the Hellenistic Age. 1972 W. B. LOCKWOOD

Arvanitia was synonym of Albainia called by Greeks (Arvanites ) , Arvanites came partly from Epirus spoke a form of Albanian language and consider themselves as real Greek. Oxford English Dictionary 2007

According to the anthropological studies of Theodoros K. Pitsios, Arvanites in the Peloponnese in the 1970s were physically indistinguishable from other Greek inhabitants of the same region. This may indicate that either the Arvanites shared extant physical similarities with other Greek populations or that early Arvanite groups extensively incorporated parts of the autochthonous Greek population.

Albania and Albanian language (both dialect Gege and Tosk ) were consider as Epir and their language Epirotic ,and the name Albanian language (Shqip) and Epirotic were synonyms from the evidence of 16-17th century literature and latter onPjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005.Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Correspondence on the Albanian Language1705-1715 [3]. The slave population of Attica and Laconia were replaced by tribes of Epirot or Albanian peasants. 1844 G. FINLAY Greece under Romans iv. 411 Carians, Paionians, Epirots, and Macedonians. Ibid. 435

Reference "Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money".Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

' 'What remains of the Albanians in this Roman picture? The question is difficult to answer because of the lack of other sources. Barleti especially stresses their trustworthiness and love of freedom, and even though he describes his compatriots from the emigrant's point of view, he does not let himself grow sentimental. The tone is rather one of fond indulgence: they are not the most obvious defendants of Christianity. In a situation in which they accompany Scanderbeg and his army with ardent prayers for victory he writes: "Never before had God been so overwhelmed with prayers by the more bellicose than pious people of Epirus !Reference : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[4]

' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' 'Reference : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[5]

Independent map of the extend of Albanian population and Albanian language in 1861 by Lejean including Epirus [[6]]

The Albanians are in part the descendants of the old Illyrians and are noteworthy for the preservation of many archaic customs and of a primitive form of Aryan language. 1935 HUXLEY & HADDON We Europeans vii. 213

In 1994, the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights issued a report extremely critical of the Greek state?s treatment of minorities (see The Guardian May 12). Peter Trudgill / Daniel Schreier, Greece and Cyprus / Griechenlandc und Zypern Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 153. Copyright © 2006. Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers).

Advice

Sigh. Yeah Dodona, this is just the problem I tried to explain to you yesterday. Such postings are useless. What are you trying to say with them? That's why I said: You need to state what exactly you want to change in an article. Tell me precisely, in one or two sentences, which part of which article you want to have edited. And then tell me precisely the one passage in your sources that supports it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I am just getting some references to be used in case that I need them concerning Albanian history. For instance it makes point that:

Albanian language was also named Epirotic and Albanians as Epiriotes. Reference:

1.Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005

2.Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [7]

3.The slave population of Attica and Laconia were replaced by tribes of Epirot or Albanian peasants. 1844 G. FINLAY Greece under Romans iv. 411 Carians, Paionians, Epirots, and Macedonians. Ibid. 435 Dodona--Burra (talk) 21:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now we're getting a bit closer. I don't think anybody denies that Bogdani in the 17th century used the term Epirotic for Albanian. That can go somewhere in one sentence in the Albanian language article, if it isn't already there. It doesn't mean anything more than that. It tells us nothing about either the modern identity of Albanians or about their ancient background. The Finlay quote is strange. Well, first of all he says "Epirot or Albanian", so he is implying those are two different groups. What time is he talking about, Roman antiquity? It would be very weird indeed if he meant ethnic Albanians at that time. Does he just mean people from the region of what is Albania today? But anyway, that was written in 1844, not exactly modern scholarship. At that time scholarship didn't even know anything about the linguistic relationships of Albanian with anything else. Without some more context that quote is pretty useless. Where did you find it anyway? You obviously didn't read Finlay in the original. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

No it si not in Albanian language articul , the quotation "or" means that if you use both term is all right Oxford University Press . Other reference : "Arvanitia was synonym of Albainia called by Greeks (Arvanites )" Oxford English Dictionary 2007.Arvanites came partly from Epirus spoke a form of Albanian language and consider themselves as real Greek.I can add reference for that one if you want..Dodona--Burra (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Now what kind of paragraph is this? Please, even considering your effort in writing in an unfamiliar language, you should at least be able to write complete sentences. It's easy, see: subject, verb, object, full stop. Your sentences run on chaotically. Nobody can read that.

Now, about your points: No, the "or" in the Finlay quote is not a synonym-"or". It means he is talking about people who either came from Albania or from Epirus. Two different groups. I'm telling you because I know English better than you. Then, you still didn't tell me where you found it. Without context, it's worthless. What is "Oxford University Press" supposed to mean? That's a publishing house, they produce thousands of books. And then, what's the "Arvanitia" thing doing here? You are chaotically jumping from one topic to the next. This is not just poor English, this is muddled thinking.

Look, I'm really trying to help you here, but you must begin to understand why people have found it so impossible to talk with you. Sometimes you really just don't make any sense at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

After all you know you believe that the peasants in Athens were Albanian OR Epirotes therefore different?! I agree that the source must be more extended but it is that much provided by Oxford publication and dictionary online if you make a search for the subject , you will need to have Athens password which I assume you have it. According the term "Arvanitia" my opinion is that make a lot of sense about the population which lived in Epirus because it is widely accepted that the Arvanites came form Epirus and information about the language which was spoken there “Arvanitika is a form of Albanian” , else the term Arvanitia synonym with Albania in Oxford Dictonary 2007, has also other quotation for instance heroic and assumes that the population was mainly Albanian during Greek revolution. So you see it makes a lot of sense. I not assume nothing what was the population in Epirus before the modern age , I am just mentioning the facts , but my believe is that the population is the same concerning ethnicity and this is something else to prove. Thank you any way I appreciate any advice you give to me. Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Advice II

I have read everything that has been presented here so far on this discussion page. Dodona, I think it would be best for you to adhere to the following standard in terms of communicating to other users the type of edits you want to implement into existing articles.

Follow this standard when presenting your arguments (copy and paste everything except the text shown in parentheses):

"I would like to edit this article on the grounds that there are errors and inaccurate statements in need of improvement. I possess sources that I would like to have scrutinized for topicality, reliability, accuracy, and verifiability. Please critique the following arguments along with the sources attached to them."

"Argument #1 - (Insert Argument)"

"Source for Argument #1 - (Insert Source)"

"Argument #2 - (Insert Argument)"

"Source for Argument #2 - (Insert Source)"

When inserting an argument, try keeping things simple. Follow the "subject, verb, object" rule at all times. For example: The "dog" (subject) "is" (verb) "tall" (object).

When inserting a source, try to adhere to the following standard: Name of author(s). Name of Book. Placename of Publication: Publication Name, Year of Publication.

Also, add a direct quote (yes, word for word) from the source(s), but please do not cite snippet statements. It would be best to add a quote that has contextual information or direct information relevant to the article you want to edit. Try this system out and tell me if it helps. Deucalionite (talk) 23:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your advice, I feel like an analphabet  now , but it is very much practical what you recommend , thanks again, honest please feel free to make me other recommendations it will be helpful because I am studying towards the higher academic degree, I do not think that you will give up of me because I am mad or sth . Dodona --Burra (talk) 07:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No you did not [8] you were in the “ both” part :-) ,thank you for the apology , I very much appreciate, yes I would like to continue to cooperate, many thanks Dodona --Burra (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Albania

I propose to add in the article the statement, with respective references. In case that you have other constructive suggestions, please feel free :

“Albania and Albanian was recognized with Epir and Epiriot in their unity under the commander of Scanderbeg against the Turkish occupation and during Ali Pashe Tepelena kingdom, in the literature Albanian language was also named Epirotic. The territory has correspondent geographic distribution with ancient Epirus ” Dodona--Burra (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Advice III

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think it is necessary for me to prepare you for your next "tempering process."

The argument you proposed will be regarded immediately as POV by other users (not just Greek users just so you know). Moreover, the source you have cited is from the 18th century, which would compel other users to demand more modern and reliable sources. You could use primary sources, but you would also have to supply modern secondary sources that have properly analyzed the primary sources you wish to cite. Keep in mind that a "modern source" should be anything that was published from the 1950s onward. This, just so you know, is an arbitrary limit that I established only so that you don't end up citing "modern sources" from the 19th and early 20th centuries to the point where you lose track of keeping up with current modern scholarship. Even though all sources have a bias, you would still need to provide "modern sources" so as to show that current scholarship adheres to the arguments you are presenting to other users.

Another problem with your argument is the wording. To simply state that the ancient Epirotians were Albanians would significantly clash with the huge amounts of physical and literary evidence unanimously proving the Epirotians to be Greek. Moreover, other users may analyze your reference and easily associate the term "Epirus" to possess mainly a geographical meaning (much like the term "Illyria" if you think about it). Also, other users may argue that European authors from the 18th and 19th centuries had the tendency to attribute anything (even more modern populations) in the Haemus Peninsula to an ancient tribe or civilization.

Also, you should keep in mind that any user with an axe to grind can easily argue (according to the sources you have provided) that the Epirotians were Greek and that "Albanian" claims to Epirus are either imperialistic or a claim that would require many Albanians to acknowledge their Greek origins. These are statements you should be prepared to face when presenting your case.

The way you should word your argument entails the following:

"According to 18th and 19th century sources, Scanderbeg's Albanians were associated with the ancient Greeks of Epirus despite the fact that this association was reflective of European romanticism over classical Greco-Roman civilization. Moreover, Scanderbeg's use of the term Epirus mainly embodied both regal and geographical meanings."

Of course, this is an imperfect rewrite of your overall argument. However, the changes made were necessary so that your argument can be presented in a more neutral and more realistic fashion to other users. To state that Scanderbeg called the Albanians "Epirotians" and his kingdom "Epirus" would only make your argument support the notion that Scanderbeg and his "Albanians" were Greek. As for Ali Pasha Tepeleni, it would be best for you to provide "modern sources" that show proper analyses of primary evidence indicating that "Epirus" as a term was used to describe Albania (despite the fact that many people laid claims to ancient legacies; the Holy Roman Empire, for example, was not "holy" and was not "Roman" even though the term "Roman" embodied a "nomenclature grab").

Give this a try and tell me what you think. Deucalionite (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Advice IV

I don't think it would be a good idea to create a new section (at least not yet since "Albanians as Epirotians" seems to exhibit a strong form of POV). However, I will tweak your revised argument.

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. However, this association was reflective of European romanticism over classical Greco-Roman civilization. Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they classify the Albanian language as "Epirotic".

Try presenting this argument with a couple of interesting and modern sources. If you want to emphasize any non-modern sources, then just remember to cite primary sources (I recommend not using the Edward Gibbon source since it is from 1788). Moreover, do not misinterpret any of the references you have cited since doing so will make your standpoint look weak.

Don't be afraid to ask for help from other users. The more cooperative you are, the better your chances of getting your argument acknowledged. Good luck. Deucalionite (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Since many users will blame you for "identity hopping" (i.e. Albanians were Pelasgians, Albanians were Illyrians, Albanians were Epirotians, etc.), you need to be careful with whatever references you are citing. Please don't take this the wrong way since I know web-based user politics and am just giving you a precaution. Again, good luck. Deucalionite (talk) 18:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your advices and for your help Deucalionite , I find it all very useful , the problem is that seems they have not will to collaborate , we came to a very balanced statement, we can give more modern authors i just gave one and the latest Oxford online references. PS I think the Albanian – Epiriot connection is in line with other thesis after all if the Greek took their name from Epirus must be a synonym of Albanians or Arvanites

Barnstar

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For your work dealing with shovinist Greek Propaganda, your work in Albanian pages, and as finding the best references, and being a great Wikipedian! Taulant23 talk 15:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Falemnderit Taulant ! Is really a great honor for me to give my contribution in all Albanian related articles. Tungjatjeta dodona--Burra (talk) 06:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

We must come to a consensus that the balance is disputed and they must not continue with their arbitrarily, I THINK THE DANISH WOMEN IS AMMAZING too AND IS MODERN SCHOLAR OF HIGH LEVEL. Thanks again, please suggest how to improve the section, and do not be provoke, try to come in line with me. Tungjatjeta Dodona --Burra (talk) 06:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Albanian as Epiriotes

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Some of Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus as part of their identity and the Albanian language as "Epirotic". But this is oppose by the Greeks because in the ancient Epirus existed the Pelasgic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks; however both nations have claimed Pelasgic ancestry.. References :

1.’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

2.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

3.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online.

4.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [29]

5.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [30]

6. Reference : The Albanians (more of an ethnographic than a geographic term) are called Arnauts (Arnaoots, Arnaouts) by the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula; they give themselves the name of Skipetars or "mountaineers". They claim descent from the Epirots and Illyrians, and, like the latter, have always been distinguished by their warlike spirit Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [9]

7. Reference : Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.: Source: Albania.Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [10]

8. Reference : Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Source Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [11]

9. Reference :The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe. Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles. On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas. It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta; and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain. Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [12] Dodona--Burra (talk) 17:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Advice V

The revised argument that you are proposing needs to undergo further assessment.

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Modern scholarship, however, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). Albanians nowadays do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus a part of their identity and have classified their language as "Epirotic".

Just so you know, I removed the last sentence since the article is about Albania and not about the Pelasgians, the Selloi, the Hellenes, the Graikoi, or ancient Epirus. Remember that all serious arguments need to be simple, straightforward, accurate, realistic, and topical to the chosen article's theme.

As for your sources, they too need to undergo further assessment.

1. I am not sure if your first reference is a primary source or a modern secondary source presenting an analysis of a primary source. Regardless of the source's type, I recommend providing direct citations.

2. Your second source cannot be used for two reasons: 1) it is an outdated modern secondary source, 2) it is heavily biased and will be looked at critically by other users.

3. Your third source also cannot be used since there is no direct association in the reference citation between Ali Pasha's kingdom and Epirus. I am not even sure the citation itself is accurately portrayed from the source word-for-word (I had to make some corrections in the citations since they were somewhat unreadable). Even though this is a modern secondary source, the citation does not provide a direct reference linking Albania with Epirus.

4. I think your fourth reference looks like a primary source. If it is, then you would need to provide a direct reference citation and also provide (if possible) a modern secondary source that has analyzed this primary source.

5. Your fifth reference looks like a modern secondary source. If it is, then you could use the citation without, hopefully, any significant amount of hindrance. However, it would be best to find another modern secondary source that complements this one so that you have a form of academic consensus that supports your arguments.

6. This sixth source cannot be used since it is an outdated modern secondary source. Trust me, using this source will not help your overall position.

7. This seventh source also cannot be used since it is an outdated modern secondary source. As I explained to you before, a modern secondary source would have to at least be something published from the 1950's onward. Why? Because a lot has changed academically since 1907 (i.e. new discoveries, better techniques of data analysis, etc.).

8. Even though your eighth reference is a modern secondary source (1999), it cannot be used to support your arguments. Why? Because during the time of Emperor Diocletian, there was no "Albanian" nation or territory established. Moreover, the source discusses the reorganization of the Roman Empire, which happened to occur on territories that would later constitute parts of the modern Albanian state. See where I am going with this? Other users will not accept this source, because there is no direct link in the reference citation that connects Albania with Epirus.

9. Your ninth and final reference cannot be used since it is an outdated modern secondary source. No one is going to accept it because a lot has changed since 1907.

Please take a look at the revised paragraph. As for your sources, I recommend keeping the ones that will directly help your case and not the ones that will be instantly rejected by other users once you present them. If you have other sources to show me, then by all means feel free to contact me so that I can help you. Good luck. Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello, the two of you, just to note that I've left some similar comments on my own talk page. I agree on a lot of these points with Deucalionite. (Hey, look, Deucalionite and I agree on something! That would have been a rare occurrence indeed, a couple of months back... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This has to be the first time both of us established similar (if not identical) views pertaining to one issue. This is truly an oddity worthy of the record books. Deucalionite (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Megistiastis page,this is the guy who edited Albania article here in Wikipedia,observe the Greek propaganda on her best!!!

http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/

these two are funny:

http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/?action=view&current=Iliria-1.jpg

http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/?action=view&current=Illyria-1.jpg

Most of the pics are not even Megistias (talk) work,some maps photoshoped by him to claim lands in Albania.As I said before,1st it's 2008 and the most important Albania is and it will be an independent state, from the north to

south...--Taulant23 (talk) 00:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

p.s. more to come

his youtube videos and coments about Albania

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Olvios300

Note to admins.Just like Thomas Lessman Thomas Lessman-World History Site.Thomas has maps on Wiki and he puts them in his site too.I do the same and i have photobucket and flickr accounts and other sites.I research,make them,put them in wiki and than in other places.For example This is meMegistiasOlviosMegistias (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You Megistias seems so benign from you photo, i am really impressed from you and your affection for everything Albanian, it must have to do with your family background! .Please at least do not vandalize our articles, do you feel proud for what are you doing ?! Dodona --Burra (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Please link your sources from your page to the talk page of the article.It has been answered thoughMegistias (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a talk with references,do not delete my talk Olivios, we are so filled with you ordinary propaganda, can you really be so underdeveloped ?!Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Dodona/Burra, this is really a final warning. I'm not yet seeing that our experiment of a constructive discussion is going anywhere really good, so you are basically still out on parole and can be re-banned any time. Engaging in personal attacks against Megistias is a sure way to make this happen. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Why you always are so critical to me when it is clear that he is vandalizing , you promised that you will protect the balance when some person like him do what they wish , don't you see what he is up to and you instead make me an warning , is this all right? Dodona --Burra (talk) 19:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

What is clear is what you are doing Burra.Megistias (talk) 19:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

could you please go away , and do not provoke me Dodona--Burra (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

After deleting my talk he is provoking and insulting Albanians since the Kola is treated as hero by them, as you tolerated he can delete and all Albanian article if he wish so , I mean who the hell is this guy which does what he wants and you obey to him Dodona--Burra (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Kollias was a pseudo-historian in the best case as he was something worse- a lawyer writing history with fantasy that contradicts all modern scientific methods and results).And there is no article for him even in Albanian wiki.Not much of a hero.Megistias (talk) 20:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

you do not know the Herous like Kola deticating his life to his cause ,are treated always like this by some people ...Anything else ? Dodona--Burra (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You wrote this “ And also that Northern epirus would become autonomous and united with Greece “[13], my answer is come and get it but watch the south one Dodona --Burra (talk) 22:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Racist quote

Note a very racist quote between some editors “Αλβανοί ή Βάνδαλοι;Καλά, μην ανησυχείς. Θα βαρεθούν και θα φύγουν σιγά σιγά...ή θα φάνε κανά banάκι. Revert και ξερό ψωμί, I guess. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:31, 23 January 2008 “we will survive for thousands of year more, but not some self hating without clear ethnicity as you. Dodona--Burra (talk) 07:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

3rdAlcove's comment you quote was not an ethnic insult (let alone "racist"). Your response, however, was. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

We are not vandal and we will leave from no where, and we will not eat … and more dry bread etc .and reverts for no reasons, of course = racism and a policy of some of course.Dodona--Burra (talk) 07:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Relax. He didn't say Albanians in general were vandals. He was discussing whether a certain group of Albanian Wikipedians should be treated as vandals. He didn't say that Albanians should go away from where they live. He said he hoped that certain editors would go away from Wikipedia. The sentence about "eating" simply means "they'll get blocked". And the idiom about "dry bread" wasn't suggesting that you ought to be eating dry bread, it's an idiom about them (i.e. Megistias) being patient. Nothing to get upset about. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a policy of some editors here to not try to hide it , is like a pursuit or s.th why it has to be this stupid war . It is our nation background in all Hellenistic period and in creation of modern Greek state, we will not let some to persecute us, as always they did Dodona--Burra (talk) 07:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A.Kola is not only famous but more then that

Kola is famous among the Greeks and Albanians but specially among Arvanites! Dodona --Burra (talk) 20:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't doubt that his name is remembered among Arvanites, but we have no reliable sources about him, thus we can't treat him as notable. We know virtually nothing about him, except that he wrote a book. (I've read some of it, it is indeed not particularly good.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Well this is your opinion, I do not doubt your capabilities but for me is one of the best book I have read ….I learn a part of history for my people deprived to be know before .

It is a very balanced view where all the aspects are mentions linguistic , history , ethnography , traditions etc very informative and well sourced! He is famous because he was: The president of Arvanitic Legue of Greece for so long and this organization is not ordinary as fare as I know . Second he is best seller in Greece and in Albania , third you have to know how much is a persons known or famous among his patriots… as I know he is, no matter how he died I will not speculate on that but ..! Dodona --Burra (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

PS i still can not edit in certain computers , now only in my talk pages, they are still blocks , by the way you did not make any comment for my last work, is that so badly sourced :-)Dodona --Burra (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Albanian as Epirotes , old and modern sources

According to the sources, Albanians are connected with Epirus. This happened, as sources indicated, at least from Roman Empire , during the Byzantine Empire, before and during Ottoman empire. Ethnic maps of Albania in fact are based on Ottoman administrative boundaries where Albanians in the south were part of Ioanina vilayet this correlates with organization of Albanian territory and people during Roman Empire. Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were also identified with Epriotes. During Ottoman Empire the religion defined national community and Greek orthodox Albanians were classified as Greeks, generally to Albanian were denied linguistic rights, so in 1878 there were 163 Greek schools and 80 Turkish but not Albanian schools in Berat , Gjirokater and Vlore while in Korca the lessons were conducted in modern Greek while the local loved their own language. In fact ethnicity in Greece is unproblematic, it is emphasized that for Greeks is difficult to conceive that ethnicity and language may contradict. The situation of Albanian population in 19th and beginning of 20th century was perceived like this by Pashko Vasa ( Vaso Pasha Shkodrani) with perhaps the most popular poem still very much actual “O moj Shqypni , mjera Shqypni “ O Albania ,poor Albania. Quotes that “Albanians you are killing each other “and that “you are divided in hundred section “ and “ but all of you are brothers” assuming that the religion difference is not important to claim different nationalities. Until the end of 19th century Albanian populations living in Greece were assimilated although extensions with northern territories in beginning of 20th century with more other ethnic group prove to be much more difficult. In fact northward expansion of Greek state established in 1830 focused not only in whole Epirus also what is now Albania. To day modern post London Albania includes partly his former territories but still the Epirus is synonym of Albania from modern sources.

Albanians consider Epirus as a very strong part of their national identity ( etnography and language ) that unjustly was separated by their natural border as the other parts of its former territories. The current process in the Balkan is in fact nothing but the maturation and consolidation of the Albanian nation with their own identity and choices between post modern European and traditional values

1..Reference : For most native speakers of Greek, ethnicity is an unproblematic concept: Greeks are those whose mother tongue is Greek, whether they are citizens of Greece or not. It is difficult for many Greeks to conceive of situations where language and ethnicity might be problematical or indeterminate Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 151.

2. Reference: Nationalism became the guiding principle of policy after the successful outcome of the Balkan Wars. In addition to Venizelos? diplomaticinsight, 36 a wide programme of institutional reforms was undertaken with the dual purpose to modernise Old Greece and to homogenise the very diverse new provinces. Source : Teichova, Alice(Editor). Economic Change and the National Question in Twentieth-Century Europe. West Nyack, NY, USA: Cambridge University Press, 2000. p 207.

3. Reference:It can be argued with some confidence that Greece in the nineteenth century enjoyed a considerable degree of homogeneity since, until the end of that century, populations living in Greece but speaking different languages, such as Albanians, were fully assimilated into the Greek culture and political system and did not exhibit any separate national identity. The annexation of the northern territories, however, at the beginning of the twentieth century proved to be more complicated. Source: Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 151.

4.Reference: Under the Treat of Bucharest of August 1913, Albania’s independence was internationall recognized within virtuall its present-da borders, including northern Epirus (where ethnic Albanians outnumbered Greeks), Source : Day, Alan. Political and Economic Dictionary of Eastern Europe. London, , GBR: Europa Publications, Limited, 2002. p 190

5. Reference: Northward expansion of the independent Greek state established in 1830 focused on historic Macedonia, the Greek claim to which encompassed not only the whole of Epirus but also much of what is now Albania Source : .Day, Alan. Political and Economic Dictionary of Eastern Europe.London, , GBR: Europa Publications, Limited, 2002. p 190.

6.Reference: Modern Greece has always been a multilingual country. Accurate information on how multilingual it is is very difficult to obtain: no Greek census since 1951 has included questions about language. There has also been a certain distortion in some of the academic research on this topic brought about by anti-minority Greek nationalism. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 153.

7. Reference: Maps of ethnic Albania produced by émigré groups are generally based on Ottoman administrative boundaries from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, viz. the vilayets of Scutari, Kosova, Monastir and Ioanina. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 145.

8. Reference:Pashko Vasa (Vaso Pasha Shkodrani) wrote a long poem beginning O moj Shqypni, e mjera Shqypni ?O Albania, poor Albania!?, described by Elsie (1995, 262) as ?the most influential and perhaps the most popular [poem] ever written in Albanian.? Owing to its significance, we shall quote a few lines from the middle of the poem (Elsie 1995, 262? 267, his translation, slightly modified. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.cBerlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 145.

9. Reference: The question of the education of the Albanians in their own language was a problem posed many times in the reports of American religious missionaries in the Balkans. In June 1896 Reverend Lewis Bond reported that lessons at the Korça (Korcë) school were conducted in modern Greek, while the local people loved their own tongue which they spoke only at their homes. "Can we do anything for them", asked Reverend Bond. His question obviously remained rhetorical, because three years later he sent another, much more extensive, statement on the issues of the language and education of the Albanians in Korça. He wrote that only at the girls' school, set up by the Protestant community, the training was in Albanian and once more claimed there was no American who would not sympathise with the Albanians and their desire to use their own language Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities . International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999[ [14]

10 . Reference : The history of modern Albanian identity, like that of other modern Balkan identities, begins during the end of the Ottoman Empire. At this time, the Ottoman system of classification was based on millet, which can be glossed ?religiously defined national community?. Greek Orthodox Albanians were therefore classified as Greeks and Muslim Albanians as Turks. The Orthodox were subject to Hellenization, while the Muslims were denied linguistic rights granted to Christians. Thus, for example, in 1878 there were 80 Turkish schools, 163 Greek schools, and no Albanian schools in the sandjaks of Berat, Gjirokastër, and Vlorë (Jelavich 1983, 85). Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.

11, Reference:Albanian is identified as the descendent of Illyrian, but Hamp (1994a) argues that the evidence is too meager and contradictory for us to know whether the term Illyrian even referred to a single language. Thracian has also been adduced as a possible ancestor of Albanian (Fine 1983, 10? 11). Hamp (1982; 1994b) argues that Albanian is descended from a language that was in intense contact with Latin, as was the language that produced Romanian (traditionally referred to as Dacian), but unlike the ancestor of Romanian, the ancestor of Albanian escaped Romanization. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.

12.Reference “The fate of Albanian people and territories during Roman rule was that , they lived as free people but in social hierarchy they had a place between Romans civil right and slaves who had not right at all , the first mention with the name Albanoi or Arber was by Ptolemy of Alexandri 2nd c. A.D one of the free Illyrian tribes. The Illyrian military began to play important role in Roman life ,seven of Roman Emperors were Illyrians and they ruled in succession, the Illyrian Emperor Dioclean administrative reorganization Albanian territory in three provinces : Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. “ Source : Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanians identities .. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA 1999 [15]

13.Reference : The political situation in Albania prior to the Ottoman invasion had been very complicated because of the high level of feudal partitioning of the country. There were several independent principalities ruled by the most powerful Albanian feudal lords: of Durrës in Central Albania, ruled by Carlo Thopia; of despot Spat in Epirus; of the Balsha family in Northern Albania; of Theodore Muzaka of Berat, comprising the lands around Berat…….By the beginning of 1386 the lord of Yanina, the Florentine Esau Buondelmonti declared his vassalage to the Ottomans and confirmed it appearing in person in the town of Edirne. In the same period, his southern neighbour and rival Albanian despot Gjin Bua Spata, had to do the same. Until his death in 1400 despot Gjin Bua Spata more than once resorted to Ottomans help in the wars he waged against the Rhodes Knights Hospitallers, who at that time made efforts to gain a firm foothold in Lepanto and Corinth. Individual members of the Albanian clan of Muzaka also became Ottoman vassals” Antonina Zhelyazkova Albanian identities 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA1999 [16]

14. Reference:.The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets) “…..During last decades many publications used as reference this study as in philosophic – theological concept authors I.Rugova,Z.Xholi,E.Sedaj ; didactic concept by authors Sh..Osmani .M.Sciambra, K. Ashta ,A. Kostallarri ; historic and patriotic concept by I. Zamputi,V.Kmasi,S.Riza … “Comments by Anila Omari ”

“Title of original publication after the transcription of Dr.M.Ahmeti is : “FLAVISSAE / PROPHETARUM DE ADVENTU / MESSIAE EPIROTICE “ Prof Dr.Seit Mansaku , Prof.Dr.Kolec Topalli Published and commented by Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

15.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [[17] to this linguistic are referred amy Albanian and foreigner authors like Cabej ,Shuteriqi , Topalli , Svane Gunnar etc.

16.Reference: Albania Synonims (Shqipëria) Arbania/Arbanon, Epirus The Republic of Albania (Republika e Shqipërisë) since 1991. Previously the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1976); the People's Republic of Albania (1946); the Kingdom of Albania (1928); and the Republic of Albania (1925). Although its independence was recognized in principle in 1912, it was made a protectorate of the Great Powers. Source :"Albania" Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names. John Everett-Heath. Oxford University Press 2005.

17. Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark.[18] Dodona --Burra (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

To ADMIN

Could you please do not allow some that so indecently delete my sourced talk! Dodona--Burra (talk) 18:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Burra,the Albanian article its been vandalized so much shovinist Greeks and right know it looks that we are talking about Greece and not Albania.Its sad to see what its going on with Wikipedia,I lost my hope in this page.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Advice VI

Here is my assessment of your references and reference citations:

1. I am glad that you provided a modern secondary source (2006). However, Greek identity is not just oriented on speaking the Greek language since other factors such as ethnicity and culture are also assessed. Moreover, the reference citation does not provide a direct link connecting Albania with Epirus. This source cannot be used.

2. Even though this is a modern secondary source (2000), the reference citation does not provide a direct link between Albania and Epirus ("diverse new provinces" does not necessarily imply "non-Greek new provinces" or "Albanian new provinces"). This source cannot be used.

3. Even though this is a modern secondary source (2006), the reference citation does not provide a direct link between Albania and Epirus. Besides, "populations speaking different languages" but having no "separate national identity" (from Greek I'm assuming) could also constitute Greeks whose identity was not defined by language before and during the 19th century. This source cannot be used.

4. This secondary modern source (2002) only discusses the Treaty of Bucharest and Albania's geopolitical connection with northern Epirus. This source will be rejected by other users.

5. This secondary modern source (2002) talks about the territorial expansion of the Greek state. There exists no information within the reference citation proving a direct historic link between Albania and Epirus. The wording should not be misinterpreted since "much of what is now Albania" should not be confused with the territorial boundaries defining the "whole of Epirus" historically. This source cannot be used.

6. This secondary modern source (2006) only discusses multilingualism in Greece, which does not constitute a direct link associating Epirus with Albania. Moreover, the phrase "anti-minority Greek nationalism" can be easily perceived as POV by other users. Therefore, this source cannot be used.

7. This secondary modern source (2006) talks only about maps of ethnic Albania and not necessarily historic correlations between Epirus and Albania. Therefore, this source cannot be used.

8. This secondary modern source (2006) cannot be utilized since it only talks about a poem written by Pashko Vasa.

9. This secondary modern source (1999) only talks about the question of the education of the Albanians in their own language. The reference citations mention nothing about direct historical correlations between Albania and Epirus. Therefore, it cannot be used.

10. This modern secondary source (2006) does not mention anything about Epirus being linked with Albania. Besides, Balkan populations were ethno-religiously defined not just defined by religion. This source also cannot be used.

11. This modern secondary source (2006) only mentions the potential linguistic origins of Albanian. Nothing in the reference citation discusses any direct historical links between Epirus and Albania. This source, ultimately, cannot be used.

12. This modern secondary source (1999) is somewhat perplexing. For the source to state that Diocletian reorganized "Albanian territory" does not necessarily mean that the Albanoi populated all of the reorganized provinces. Moreover, there is no definitive physical evidence proving a link between modern Albanians and the Illyrian Albanoi tribe. However, I do recommend keeping this source so that other users can scrutinize it further.

13. The reference citations you provided from a modern secondary source (1999) are interesting. Yet, they seem to focus mainly on the feudal structures of Albanian territories. To state merely that an Albanian feudal lord ruled Epirus does not directly prove that the Albanians were Epirotians. However, I recommend keeping this source so that other users can scrutinize it further.

14. Didn't you present this source already? Nevertheless, "The Band of the Prophets" merely mentions the term "Epirotic" which would probably constitute a linguistic classification towards describing the Albanian language. However, other users may find the use of the term to be a basic misnomer. Therefore, I recommend not using this source.

15. You already presented this primary source in one of our earlier discussions. Though the "Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum" is from 1635, I recommend either providing a direct citation or a modern secondary source that has analyzed this primary source.

16. You already presented this modern secondary source in one of our earlier discussions. I already recommended that you keep this reference and also find other modern secondary sources that complement what you have already provided so that you can establish an academic consensus.

17. This modern secondary source (2005) is somewhat questionable. Though the dictionary entry states that "Epirus" is synonymous with "Albania," it does not specify as to how and why. There is no direct historical or socio-cultural information that would allow any user to be persuaded into accepting a direct link between Albania and Epirus. I recommend not using this source since dictionaries will not convince anyone to realistically support your position.

Please do not take this assessment the wrong way. I am simply going through your sources and preparing you for the worst when you decide to present your references to other users. That's all. Deucalionite (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Kastrioti is Greek ?????

Watch what Megistias (talk) does and says about Albania hero Skanderbeg [19] What a vandal,how can no one sees it.This is insane,nuts and funny too though.After Skanderbeg they will call Sali Berisha greek too.LOL--Taulant23 (talk) 02:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Po bejne nje bllof dhe po me akuzojne per nje tjeter Mavrinjotin!? , ne fakt ketu adm bashkepunojne me keqberesit.Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked

Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Dodona confirms that you are the banned user "Dodona" and that you have been using a number of sockpuppet accounts abusively to evade your ban. Accordingly, this account is indefinitely blocked. You are not welcome on Wikipedia. Do not return under any username, or your edits will be reverted and your account blocked without discussion. Sandstein (talk) 06:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

''''Please be certain , i am NOT using any socket puppet because i do not need to, i can not understand Lucas why you are doing this , seems that you do not know Albanians , if i said that i will not use another account i will NOT!.Consider the block release if you are fair enoughDodona--Burra (talk) 06:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I was myself astonished, because I did trust you and I did have the impression you were making a sincere attempt to be constructive. But checkuser seems to confirm User:Mavronjoti is your sock. Believe me, I'm trying to get this double-checked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC):

No he is NOT, i don't need to do that, anyone could use some computers !Dodona--Burra (talk) 07:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

While the temporal pattern of your editing doesn't overlap much, there was at least one occasion when you and "Mavronjoti" were editing simultaneously, within minutes. If checkuser found you identical, I suppose that means that you were using the same IP at that moment. How would you explain that?

• 2008-01-23, 11:28 Burra Talk:Arvanites /* Kollias */ [20]
• 2008-01-23, 11:24 Mavronjoti Kitsos Botsaris [21]
• 2008-01-23, 11:23 Burra Arvanites /* Famous Arvanites */ [22]
• 2008-01-23, 11:20 Burra Talk:Arvanites /* Kollias */ [23]
• 2008-01-23, 11:19 Mavronjoti Markos Botsaris [24]
• 2008-01-23, 11:03 Burra Arvanites /* Famous Arvanites */ [25]
• 2008-01-23, 10:56 Burra Talk:Arvanites /* Kollias */ [26]

Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Only if you want to find a reason to block me which I want to believe that you don't, it can not be what you assume, because since we had our agreement I am only using only one account, please see carefully the edits must be quite different.Dodona--Burra (talk) 09:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Look at this for instance it can not be my edit , i do not write such things [27],and more why you didn't notice at all my mentor?? Dodona--Burra (talk) 09:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll ask the checkuser guys to double check. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this helpful ? This is the time when this user created the new account [28]Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting indeed. At that time, you were User:Besa Arvanon, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

yes i was , you see .Dodona--Burra (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

next i will suggest you to talk with Mavronjoti.dodona--Burra (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, though, how do you explain that when you two were blocked this morning, a Wikipedia:Autoblock was triggered the very same minute both on an IP used by Mavronjoti and one of yours? Mavronjoti wasn't editing this morning, so how did that happen if it wasn't the same IP? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Seriously ,even my interest are quite different from this guy ,when his account was form i was using Besa Arvanon see edits Dodona --Burra (talk) 16:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's just wait now to see what the checkusers will say. I'm pretty confident they will be able to decide this with certainty, either way. If the result isn't clear I'll unblock you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well i can wait, but you still are blocking apparently two different Albanian users, this is very clear dodona--Burra (talk) 23:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked

Okay, Dodona, the new checkuser results have confirmed that during those overlapping edits Mavronjoti and you were actually on different (though similar) IPs, so I'll go out on an assumption of Besa and unblock you. Sorry for the trouble, and thank you for your patience in dealing with this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

User name change

By the way, as we were talking about the idea of letting you have the "Dodona" user name, the relevant process is outlined at Wikipedia:Changing username/Usurpations. Let me know if you need any assistance there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked for the name to be changed, thank you for being reasonable,unblocking and trusting me.Dodona --Burra (talk) 10:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Arvanitika as an ancient greek dialect

Can Arvanitika been seen as the remains of an ancient Greek dialect, separate developed branch ? Reference: In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, 7 just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation.[29]Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Uhm, no, Tsakonian is really not comparable. Your comparison seems to be: Tsakonian is Greek; Tsakonian is endangered; Arvanitika is also endangered; therefore, Arvanitika is also Greek. Doesn't quite add up. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

No absolutely was not my logic, it can not be that unintelligent. I intercepted that the author tried indirectly to assume a link and a similarity, else some Tsakonian language dialogs look to me exactly Arvanitika “Κιά έννι ο όντα μι”;“Ku eshte oda ime”” Where is my room “. Dodona--Burra (talk) 06:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Joseph assumes no such thing. Believe me, I know the guy. There's nothing in the text at all that would indicate such a connection. Sorry, but you are just reading that into it.

As for the similarities in the sentences you quoted, that's simple: those words that sound similar are either just Turkish loanwords taken over by Greek and Albanian in parallel (oda), or common Indo-European elements (e.g., almost all IE languages have words for "my" that start with "m", and question words that start with "k".) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It is difficult to argue linguistically that Arvanitika is derived from an ancient Greek dialect. Moreover, other users will definitely ask which ancient Greek dialect Arvanitika supposedly came from. The source you provided is interesting, but it does not provide an in-depth linguistic breakdown of Arvanitika to the point where other linguists can establish basic correlations between Arvanitika and whatever ancient Greek dialect it is supposedly derived from.

The source, unfortunately, briefly mentions some "archaic features" of Arvanitika. However, these "archaic features" are not directly correlated with ancient Greek linguistic paradigms. Therefore, any source that you provide must submit a detailed analysis of Arvanitika in order for any serious user to acknowledge the supposed "ancient Greek heritage" of Arvanitika. I hope my analysis was helpful. Deucalionite (talk) 19:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We can safely make it stronger: It is downright impossible to argue linguistically for such a link, and nobody in the literature has ever proposed anything like that. It's an idea that I'm afraid Dodona has fabricated out of thin air. Greek is Greek, Arvanitika is Albanian, both are unrelated except for the fact that they are both ultimately IE. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I will add further reference and this interesting linguistic study.

Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph: Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [30] Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Dodona, you really need to learn to read more carefully, and stop reading your own phantasies into things. Sorry to be blunt, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Joseph is talking about the Balkan linguistic union and when and where certain individual language features could have spread from one language to the other. Nowhere does he indicate that either of the languages in question (let alone Arvantika specifically) was a form of the other, or descended from the other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

New references

I propose to add the following based on this new references:

Pelasgians are pre-Hellenic people living in central and Northern Greece, Athenians claimed Pelasgian ancestry and the Pelasgian element survived , whiles the language of Atiki latter become standard for all Hellenic tribes.

Reference: Pelasgians [CP]. The name in Greek literature for the pre-Hellenic peoples living in central and northern Greece at the time of the immigration of the first true Greeks about 2000 BC. The Pelasgians were widely dispersed in these mass movements, and Herodotus mentions pockets of the Pelasgian language surviving to his own day in Chalcidice and near Cyzicus on the Sea of Marmora. The Athenians claimed a Pelasgian ancestry and in doing so believed that they were the autochthonous inhabitants of Attica. The name of their city and goddess is indeed pre-Hellenic: more probably, a Pelasgian element survived and was absorbed when Attica was occupied by Greeks in the early immigration. The Dorian invasion had little effect on Athens, which was the only citadel of Mycenaean times to survive into the Hellenistic period. How to cite this entry: "Pelasgians" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology. Timothy Darvill. Oxford University Press, 2002. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.

Pelasgians language which is now identified by many as an Indo – European Language, is consider the base for development of other languages of this group by some scholars.

Reference:A language attributed to this people ( Pelasgians ) , proposed by some as a link in the development of other languages, and now identified by many as an Indo-European language. Source: "Pelasgians" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology. Timothy Darvill. Oxford University Press, 2002.Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Grupo ome të liruan nga burgu i Wikipedisë, lol unë dje dola. Nejse duhet bër ndonjë plan sesi mund të rregullojmë artikujt për Shqipërinë,sidomos atë mbi Epirin(popullsi Ilire).Mizën do ta vrasim me shërbet,e di vet ti.Thank you again,even though I think you have done more than me,ur sources are stronger,no matter what "Miza" says ;)--Taulant23 (talk) 20:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)