User:MB/sandbox5

Reywas92, I read your version and couldn't remember exactly what my version said. So I included my original as V1, yours as V2, and some mods and comments in V3 so we can see the progression (not sure if this is better, some people might prefer reading the diff listings instead). Take a look at V3 and reply/comment or make a V4 as you think appropriate.

By the way, User:MB/PROD log#July 2016 shows I prodded the first 26 of these Arizona sub-stubs. I AFD'ed some of the low-hanging fruit (trailer parks) but gave up on the rest pending getting GEOLAND clarified.

MB 06:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Reywas92, just another ping in case the previous one didn't work. If it did and you have just been busy, no problem. MB 01:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

I did, sorry I'm still editing but have a lot on my IRL plate to dive into as we initiate the RFC. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harker, Florida is up now, one of the edge cases where it may for some period have been a named place where a small population lived but no longer exists whatsoever and any sources there could be about it are offline. I have no idea what USGS doesn't review their maps, it's still on the 2018 quad.... It could be tough for this proposal to necessarily address it though (I want real sources for all articles in general). Also my Further Information got to be a bit of another rant... ~~~~

RfC: Notability of populated places

Should the notability guideline on geographic regions, areas, and places be clarified?

Background

The guideline contains the ambiguous term "legally recognized" for which there is no commonly understood definition. This has lead to frequent debate and inconsistent conclusions of AFDs.

Version 1

Proposal

Change the first two bullet points to read:

Conventional Populated places (e.g. cities, towns, villages, etc.) established or recognized by a government jurisdiction are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low. Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history. The mere inclusion of a place name on a map, database, or other type of list, even if maintained by government entity, does not confer recognition. Census tracts and other "overlay" districts are usually not considered notable.

Informal Populated places are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. Examples may include subdivisions, business parks, housing developments, informal regions of a state, unofficial neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it.

Version 2

Proposal

Change the first two bullet points to read:

Stand-alone populated places (e.g. cities, towns, villages, etc.) established or recognized by a government jurisdiction are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low (e.g. Monowi, Nebraska). Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history. Listing as a stand-alone entry with supplementary data in a census may be considered recognition, but the mere inclusion of a place name on a map, database, or other type of list, even if maintained by a government entity, does not. Census tracts and other overlay districts are usually not considered notable.

Informal and sub-unit populated places are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. Examples may include subdivisions, business parks, housing developments, informal regions of a state, neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it.

Further information

An entry in the Geographic Names Information System by itself does not necessarily confer notability, as it is a database of all names that have appeared on maps in the United States (Wikipedia:Notability_(geographic_features)#Sources says "This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject"). In addition to its feature classes for census-designated places and incorporated civil administrative places, it also has a separate catch-all "populated place" category, which excludes incorporated places and includes housing developments/subdivisions, mobile home parks, and small unofficial neighborhoods, individuals' ranches, and windmills. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Autumn Ridge, Arizona Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desert Village Mobile Home Park, Arizona Ferguson Place Windmill, Arizona. While these fall under the current GEOLAND #2, there is ambiguity that this listing would be legal recognition. Note that while many websites import data from GNIS to autogenerate information, they do not necessarily provide any additional non-trivial coverage.

Version 3

Proposal

Change the first two bullet points to read:

Stand-alone populated places (e.g. cities, towns, villages, etc.) established or recognized by a government jurisdiction are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low (e.g. Monowi, Nebraska). Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history. ~~Listing as a stand-alone entry with supplementary data in a census may be considered recognition, but~~ the mere inclusion of a place name on a map, database, or other type of list, even if maintained by a government entity, does not. Census tracts and other overlay districts are usually not considered notable.

I don't think we should use Monowi, Nebraska as an example here because although it has a really low population, it would meet GNG. We should find a small place that doesn't have many known sources but we would keep (as presumed notable) just because it is recognized as described in this bullet. Also, we need to keep this not so US centric. [Further thought - it is appropriate to include an example here since more sources could be found in the future making any "presumed notable" place demonstrably notable.]

I also don't think "listing as a stand-alone entry with supplementary data in a census" is clear enough and specific enough. We don't want to replace "legally recognized" with another ambiguous term. What exactly is the point of this. Ferguson Place Windmill, Arizona has some supplemental info (coords, elevation) and we don't want to leave a door open for more sub-stubs. Do we really need to say anything about census, because a census is to count people and we already said we don't care how many people are in a populated place so long as it is "established or recognized" by a government jurisdiction. But maybe in some less-developed countries, a list of places on which they take a census is the best list of recognized places. Not sure about this one.

Yeah I agree, there's probably several in the Indiana mass-production that would fit that. I'm wondering if I should AFD the windmills as another test case first to show the fallibility of GNIS or if that's better after; ought to be a slam-dunk in the current state though.

Informal and sub-unit populated places are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. Examples may include subdivisions, business parks, housing developments, informal regions of a state, neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place ~~should~~ can be included in the ~~more general~~ article on the ~~legally recognized~~ superordinate populated place ~~or administrative subdivision that contains it.~~

some changes to make this bullet more succinct.

Further information

An entry in the Geographic Names Information System by itself does not necessarily confer notability, as it is a database of all names that have appeared on maps in the United States (Wikipedia:Notability_(geographic_features)#Sources says "This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject"). In addition to its feature classes for census-designated places and incorporated civil administrative places, it also has a separate catch-all "populated place" category, which excludes incorporated places and includes housing developments/subdivisions, mobile home parks, and small unofficial neighborhoods, individuals' ranches, and windmills. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Autumn Ridge, Arizona Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desert Village Mobile Home Park, Arizona Ferguson Place Windmill, Arizona. While these fall under the current GEOLAND #2, there is ambiguity that this listing would be legal recognition. Note that while many websites import data from GNIS to autogenerate information, they do not necessarily provide any additional non-trivial coverage.

Version 4

Proposal

Change the first two bullet points to read:

Stand-alone populated places (e.g. cities, towns, villages, etc.) established or recognized by a government jurisdiction are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low. Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history. The mere inclusion of a place name on a map, database, or other type of list, even if maintained by a government entity, does not. Census tracts and other overlay districts are usually not considered notable.

Informal and sub-unit populated places are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. Examples may include subdivisions, housing developments, business parks, informal regions of a state, neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. If a substantive Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place can be included in the article on the superordinate populated place.

Further information

The Geographic Names Information System "populated place" classification is a catch-all which excludes incorporated places and includes housing developments/subdivisions, mobile home parks, and small unofficial neighborhoods. Without further sourcing these are not necessarily notable (see 1, 2, and 3). It also incorrectly lists many locales [1] as populated places (see 4, 5, 6, and 7). GNIS is a descriptivist database of standardized names that have appeared on maps, but this form of recognition is ambiguously interpreted and inconsistent with the present GEOLAND. Note that while many websites import data from GNIS (sometimes alongside the census and weather) to autogenerate information, they do not necessarily provide any additional non-trivial coverage of the subject.

Reywas92, I think we are getting very close to something we can take to a larger audience. I reworked it again, building on your last version. I dropped the "stand-alone" terminology - that was sort-of a geographic concept but not a hierarchical one (every place is a sub-unit of something else (county/state/country). See below.

Reywas92, I changed it again today based on the deletion at Trevowhan. Added hamlets in #1 and new #3. MB 23:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Version 5

Proposal

Change the first two bullet points to read:

Primary populated places (e.g. cities, towns, villages, etc.) established or recognized by a government jurisdiction for administrative purposes are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low. Even abandoned places can be notable, because notability encompasses their entire history. Notability is not effected by the mere inclusion of a place name on a map, database, or other type of list, even if maintained by a government entity. Census tracts and other overlay districts are usually not considered notable. Most hamlets are not legal entities and are not presumed notable, although there are exceptions.

Secondary populated places (e.g. subdivisions, housing developments, business parks, informal regions of a state, neighborhoods, etc.) are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG. Any such place can be notable given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. If a substantive article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the such places can be included in the article on the superordinate populated place.

Historic settlements that predate the modern legal system may or may not be notable. They must also be evaluated on a case-by-case basis in accordance with GNG and whether there are sufficient sources to develop an encyclopedic article.

Further information

The Geographic Names Information System "populated place" classification is a catch-all which excludes incorporated places and includes housing developments/subdivisions, mobile home parks, and small unofficial neighborhoods. Without further sourcing these are not necessarily notable (see 1, 2, and 3). It also incorrectly lists many locales [2] as populated places (see 4, 5, 6, and 7). GNIS is a descriptivist database of standardized names that have appeared on maps, but this form of recognition is ambiguously interpreted and inconsistent with the present GEOLAND. Note that while many websites import data from GNIS (sometimes alongside the census and weather) to autogenerate information, they do not necessarily provide any additional non-trivial coverage of the subject.