Template talk:Cite Q/Archive 8

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Support for arXiv class

Currently the template does not support the class= parameter found in the arXiv template. This seems to be a problem for the community and hinder adoption. So9q (talk) 08:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I digged a little and found that Violations of the Kerr and Reissner-Nordstrom bounds: horizon versus asymptotic quantities (Q27334292) for example does have this classification data in a qualifier (gr-qc), but citeq does not yet support it:

Jorge F. M. Delgado; Carlos A. R. Herdeiro; Eugen Radu; Helgi Runarsson (5 July 2016). "Violations of the Kerr and Reissner-Nordstrom bounds: horizon versus asymptotic quantities". Physical Review D. 92. arXiv:1606.07900. Bibcode:2016PhRvD..94b4006D. doi:10.1103/PHYSREVD.94.024006. ISSN 1550-7998. Wikidata Q27334292.

If the arxiv link is clicked one can easily find the links to the gr-qc class, so this is perhaps a bit of a question of taste specific to enwiki and the editor linked above seem to very strongly oppose the class information not being available as a link it seems. So9q (talk) 09:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The problem goes a lot deeper than 'support for arxiv class'. Cite Q is a garbage editor-hostile template. In the diff above, compare Cite Q with a proper Cite arxiv

Isola, Phillip; Zhu, Jun-Yan; Zhou, Tinghui; Efros, Alexei A. (2017), Image-To-Image Translation With Conditional Adversarial Networks (PDF) (published 21 November 2016), pp. 1125–1134, arXiv:1611.07004, doi:10.48550/ARXIV.1611.07004, Wikidata Q130284660

Isola, Phillip; Zhu, Jun-Yan; Zhou, Tinghui; Efros, Alexei A. (2016). "Image-to-Image Translation with Conditional Adversarial Networks". arXiv:1611.07004 [cs.CV].

Cite Q, beyond not supporting |class=, which should only be support for arxiv citations, lists 2 publications dates for no reason and italicizes what should be in quotes, and adds an utterly pointless DOI. The year and page range, which you specified, are also wrong. You also introduced it in a page that did not make use of Cite Q, going against WP:CITEVAR. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:42, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate what makes cite q editor hostile according to you? Is it because it does not include links to edit the information fetched from Wikidata (like in infoboxes)? So9q (talk) 14:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

It's impossible to edit, impossible to review, is vulnerable to vandalism, is not AWB/bot-maintainable, does not play well with datadumps because the date resides in Wikidata, caused multiple CITEVAR violations wherever it's used, avoids defense mechanisms like the spam blacklist/warning against predatory journals or WP:CITEWATCH, includes pointless information like ISSN and Publisher for cite journals, etc... Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing.

• impossible to review - can you elaborate?
• vulnerable to vandalism - is this related to the fact that few users patrol or watch pages like this on Wikidata?
• does not play well with datadumps because the date resides in Wikidata - this is surprising, could you elaborate?
• includes pointless information like ISSN and Publisher for cite journals - this is easily suppressed using =unset. The template could also be improved to have a configuration where things like this can be set up so that it suits the English Wikipedia community.

So9q (talk) 17:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

impossible to review - can you elaborate? - Compare:

*{{Cite journal
 |last1=Rezende |first1=Danilo Jimenez
 |last2=Mohamed |first2=Shakir
 |last3=Wierstra |first3=Daan
 |date=2014
 |title=Stochastic Backpropagation and Approximate Inference in Deep Generative Models
 |url=https://proceedings.mlr.press/v32/rezende14.html
 |journal=Journal of Machine Learning Research
 |volume=32 |issue=2 |pages=1278–1286
 |arxiv=1401.4082
}}
*{{cite q|Q130284660}}
*{{cite arXiv
 |last1=Isola |first1=Phillip
 |last2=Zhu |first2=Jun-Yan
 |last3=Zhou |first3=Tinghui
 |last4=Efros |first4=Alexei A.
 |date=2016
 |title=Image-to-Image Translation with Conditional Adversarial Networks
 |eprint=1611.07004 
 |class=cs.CV
}}

Does cite q have all the relevant information? Does it have missing information? Does it have extraneous information that should not be displayed? Is is consistently formatted? You can't tell, because all the data resides in Wikidata. This is also why it's vulnerable to vandalism. If someone changes, in Wikidata, all authors to be "Penis Johnson", you don't get notified because it doesn't appear on your watchlist. Things living in Wikidata is the root problem, that's why none of gets picked up in Wikipedia's defense systems, dumps, etc... and that none of it is editable on-Wikipedia with Wikipedia made tools. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:21, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

|class= is only supported by {{cite arxiv}}:

{{cite arxiv |author=Jorge F. M. Delgado |author2=Carlos A. R. Herdeiro |author3=Eugen Radu |author4=Helgi Runarsson |date=5 July 2016 |title=Violations of the Kerr and Reissner-Nordstrom bounds: horizon versus asymptotic quantities |arxiv=1606.07900 |class=gr-qc}}

Jorge F. M. Delgado; Carlos A. R. Herdeiro; Eugen Radu; Helgi Runarsson (5 July 2016). "Violations of the Kerr and Reissner-Nordstrom bounds: horizon versus asymptotic quantities". arXiv:1606.07900 [gr-qc].

This restriction was imposed as a result of this discussion.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the link and example. It seems this is a wikt:can_of_worms. My interest is mainly to make sure there is a QID in every single reference in all Wikipedias. The easiest way to achieve that is to introduce a |qid= parameter in cs1|2.

Cite q seems like a nice wrapper to me, but I understand there is a lot of complexity and decisions embedded in the different citation templates that makes it a bit difficult to use in a way the community accepts. So9q (talk) 14:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

introduce a |qid= parameter in cs1|2 is a non-starter. That proposition has been rejected more than once in the past.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

So9q, it is most definitely not a "nice wrapper", which you can see if you peruse the archives of this talk page. It results in WP:CITEVAR violations almost everywhere it is used. I recommend using the normal cite templates. One way to do this while making use of the advantages of Cite Q is to use this template's |expand=yes option in your sandbox, then correct the parameters as needed before copying and pasting the output into an article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

That proposition has been rejected more than once in the past.

Weakly rejected, at best. There's never been a formal RFC on it. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Then perhaps it's a good idea to have one. I'm not ready yet to propose it though. The reason I would like it is: It would help me a lot in my quest to create an AI agent that help editors find full text urls to papers cited in Wikipedias but currently missing a fulltext statement in wikidata or |url=.

The last time I worked on parsing CS1|2 templates into python objects it ended up being a lot of work.

If you expand that to 150+ wikis with different template and parameter names it quickly becomes a total nightmare to map parameters to wikidata properties.

I could use a LLM to help me map and support multiple Wikipedias (GPT-3 had just been launched the last time I worked on citations). So9q (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Citing pages and referencing bibliography

I am quite faithful to Sfn, it allows both the possibility of citing specific pages as well as producing a shortened reference section which is linked to the bibliography section, as most editors already know. But with Cite Q the same result is not easily achievable. Citing specific pages generates a whole citation in the references, every time, so when you use several pages from the same book, it ends with a polluted reference section. To combine Sfn with Cite Q demands a measure of improvisation. At least this was the situation some months ago, when I tried for the last time. Now I really wanted to ask if there any better solution for this, or if the technical group supporting Cite Q plans to integrate a shortened citation version within the template. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Not really clear about what you are complaining about. To cite multiple pages from the same source using {{cite q}} and {{sfn}}, place the single {{cite q}} template for that source in your §Bibliography, set |ref= as necessary, and in the article body place appropriately paginated {{sfn}} templates wherever they are needed. Done.

Perhaps I don't understand your complaint. If my reply does not answer, please rephrase (providing real-life examples never hurts).

So far as I know, there is no technical group supporting Cite Q so there is no plan.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, i am not well versed in this technical aspect of Wikipedia. So, indeed, using harvid solves the problem, that was what I needed. Yet, as a said, that still quite a improvisation, given that Sfn doesnt 'recognize' Cite Q, if i am being clear. But anyway, thank you very much for the suggestion of using ref=. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 18:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Cite Q has SFN support built in. See for example

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

References

Bibliography

J. Currie Elles (1908), The influence of commerce on civilization: the Joseph Fisher lecture on commerce delivered at the University of Adelaide by J. Currie Elles esq., April 23rd, 1908 (1st ed.), Adelaide: W. K. Thomas & Co., Wikidata Q106369892

Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:53, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The {{sfn}} support is built into Module:Citation/CS1. Use of whole names is not the norm for {{sfn}} which normally renders some number of surnames and a date. This is the WP:CITEVAR complaint because wikdata is (apparently) unable or unwilling to provide surname/given name for authors. Because the norm for {{sfn}} templates is what it is, I suggested using |ref=.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe Trappist means something like this:

Curabitur pretium tincidunt lacus. Nulla gravida orci a odio. Nullam varius, turpis et commodo pharetra, est eros bibendum elit, nec luctus magna felis sollicitudin mauris.

References

Bibliography

J. Currie Elles (1908), The influence of commerce on civilization: the Joseph Fisher lecture on commerce delivered at the University of Adelaide by J. Currie Elles esq., April 23rd, 1908 (1st ed.), Adelaide: W. K. Thomas & Co., Wikidata Q106369892

Does that work for you? Mathglot (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

That's what I just said... Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:11, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Sort of, or at least, halfway there. The specific point of Trappist's I was referring to, was this one:

Use of whole names is not the norm for {{sfn}} which normally renders some number of surnames and a date.

Indeed; which is why in Trappist's example, it shows the full author name, less usual for {{sfn}} and generally not used that way, except to accommodate {{citeq}}, because of Wikidata's apparent limitation. Adding the proper |ref= tag makes it possible to look like usual sfn behavior, last name only (in series, if more than one), plus year. Mathglot (talk) 22:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! i understand it now. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Umm, the example is Editor Headbomb's, not mine. I agreed that it 'worked' but will likely violate WP:CITEVAR unless all references in the article follow the first-last name order. If Editor JoaquimCebuano is accustomed to using {{sfn}} with {{cite book}} and that template uses |first= / |last= parameters then the correct way to tweak {{cite q}} is:

{{cite Q|Q106369892|last=Elles|first=J. Currie|date=1908}}

Elles, J. Currie (1908), The influence of commerce on civilization: the Joseph Fisher lecture on commerce delivered at the University of Adelaide by J. Currie Elles esq., April 23rd, 1908 (1st ed.), Adelaide: W. K. Thomas & Co., Wikidata Q106369892 – using |ref=none to suppress distracting multiple target errors.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

And, including |date=1908 in the {{cite q}} template prevents Module:Footnotes from emitting a false-positive sfn error: no target: ... error message.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:58, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, now it works, the problem was that I was using just the last name, as I am used to do with cite book, it needs the whole name of the authors. Sorry for the confusion and thank you! JoaquimCebuano (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@JoaquimCebuano:, either the whole name, or just the last name plus |ref=, as in the shaded example, which I prefer, because it is more consistent with other usage. You may use either one. Mathglot (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

"wikdata is (apparently) unable or unwilling to provide surname/given name for authors" What are author given names (P9687) and author last names (P9688), then? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks like they are Wikidata properties that are not used by this template:

{{cite Q|Q1801903}}

→ Charles Darwin, Esq., F.R.S., F.L.S., & F.G.S.; Alfred Wallace, Esq. (August 1858). "On the Tendency of Species to form Varieties; and on the Perpetuation of Varieties and Species by Natural Means of Selection". Journal of the Proceedings of the Linnean Society. Zoology. 3 (9). Oxford University Press: 45–62. doi:10.1111/J.1096-3642.1858.TB02500.X. ISSN 1945-9475. Wikidata Q1801903.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
What am I missing? Searching for the word "given" on this template's documentation page does not enlighten me. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:14, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I was addressing the fallacious assertion (which I quoted) that Wikidata is "unable or unwilling" to provide such data. Anyone is at liberty to make use of those properties, both at Wikidata and in this template's code. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Should we make something like citing format name property or something like that in addition to author name and let citeq look for that property?

If it exist, show that instead of normal author name ThainaYu (talk) 12:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

cite Q not working properly

At this moment. See use of cite Q at Jaminjung language, currently reference [6]. MargaretRDonald (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

That's because relying on Wikidata is awful and we shouldn't use Cite Q. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Poppycock. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The issue described relates to d:Q131319408. Cite Q currently gives;

Judy Merchant Jones; Dolly Bardbarriya; Eileen Raymond; et al. (2011). Jaminjung, Ngaliwurru and Nungali plants and animals: Aboriginal flora and fauna knowledge from the Bradshaw and Judbarra/Gregory National Park area, north Australia. Vol. 38. Diwurruwurru-Jaru Aboriginal Corporation. ISBN 978-1-921519-49-9. Wikidata Q131319408. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help)

which at the time of writing, throws a {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored error.

As the item is an instance of scholarly article (Q13442814), I'm unclear why "cite book" and not "cite journal" is being rendered. @Mike Peel and Trappist the monk: Did something change? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Q131319408 has an ISBN so Module:Cite Q at lines 640–649 (particularly lines 642–643) sets the template to {{cite book}}. Apparently there are 'issues' with the ISBN at Q131319408 so perhaps resolving those 'issues' will change how this template renders. Alternately, you can force {{cite q}} to use {{cite journal}}:

{{Cite Q|Q131319408|expand=yes|template=journal}}

{{Cite journal |author-link11=Glenn Wightman |author1=Judy Merchant Jones |author10=Moerkerken, Colleen |author11=Glenn Wightman |author2=Dolly Bardbarriya |author3=Eileen Raymond |author4=Doris Roberts |author5=Duncan McDonald |author6=Dinah McDonald |author7=Margaret McDonald |author8=Candide Simard |author9=Colleen Moerkerken |display-authors=3 |id=[[WDQ (identifier)|Wikidata]] [[:d:Q131319408|Q131319408]] |isbn=978-1-921519-49-9 |journal=Northern Territory Botanical Bulletin |language=en |publication-date=2011 |publisher=Diwurruwurru-Jaru Aboriginal Corporation |title=Jaminjung, Ngaliwurru and Nungali plants and animals: Aboriginal flora and fauna knowledge from the Bradshaw and Judbarra/Gregory National Park area, north Australia |volume=38}}

Judy Merchant Jones; Dolly Bardbarriya; Eileen Raymond; et al. (2011). "Jaminjung, Ngaliwurru and Nungali plants and animals: Aboriginal flora and fauna knowledge from the Bradshaw and Judbarra/Gregory National Park area, north Australia". Northern Territory Botanical Bulletin. 38. Diwurruwurru-Jaru Aboriginal Corporation. ISBN 978-1-921519-49-9. Wikidata Q131319408.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: Thank you. It would be good in such cases, then, if the template did not try to use |journal=. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:07, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

"publication-place" and "publication-date" do not seem to be working

Per title, I came across a use of this template at File:BaiKunting Star and Pa30.jpg and noticed there was a warning "Please provide a date or year". However, the called WD item, The Remnant and Origin of the Historical Supernova 1181 AD (Q108595926), definitely had the publication date. I noticed back in 2022 someone tried to fix the date issue in the module but this apparently caused other issues and was reverted. I then ensured that The Astrophysical Journal Letters (Q3470990) had its place of publication included so that the module would call it, but it doesn't seem to work either.

As a secondary request, I see that the module only calls page(s) (P304) and section, verse, paragraph, or clause (P958) to reference article location. Is it possible to implement a call to article ID (P2322) since so many journals use article IDs rather than page numbers? It could potentially be called in the same way pages are, since they both occupy the same function.

Thanks! — Huntster (t @ c) 23:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

This is what c:Module:Cite Q hands off to c:Template:Citation:

{{citation |issn=2041-8205 |author6=Pascal Le Dû |doi=10.3847/2041-8213/AC2253 |volume=918 |issue=2 |language=en |author4=Albert A. Zijlstra |s2cid=235195784 |id=[[WDQ (identifier)|Wikidata]] [[:d:Q108595926|Q108595926]] |journal=The Astrophysical Journal Letters |author5=Martín A. Guerrero |author3=Foteini Lykou |title=The Remnant and Origin of the Historical Supernova 1181 AD |author2=Quentin A. Parker |author1=Andreas Ritter |bibcode=2021ApJ...918L..33R |arxiv=2105.12384 |publication-date=15 September 2021}}

c:Template:Citation (and probably others) calls c:Template:Citation/core. The (Please provide a date or year) annotation comes from c:Template:Citation/core. Citation/core looks for |author= or |last= (without enumeration). Not finding either of those, it looks for |editor= (without enumeration) or |editors=. Not finding either of those, it looks for |year=. Not finding that, it looks for |date=. Not finding that, it looks for (last gasp) |accessdate=. Not finding that, it emits the (Please provide a date or year) message.

As you can see, c:Module:Cite Q emits enumerated author parameters, |publication-date= instead of |date=, and does not emit |accessdate= (or |access-date=). At the bottom of c:Template:Citation, there is a list of deprecated parameters that includes |access-date=, |publication-date=, and |publication-place=.

c:Template:Citation/core was abandoned here years ago. It seems a wonder that c:Module:Cite Q works at all at commons.

You might consider updating c:Module:Cite Q to the current version of en:Module:Cite Q. The last substantive update at commons was done 12 December 2020 by Editor Mike Peel; there have been significant changes here since then. No guarantee that doing so will make things better because the supporting infrastructure is sorely lacking.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:33, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be that changing c:Module:Cite Q at line 15 and line 48 will be helpful. c:Template:Citation wants to see |location= instead of |publication-place= and |date= instead of |publication-date=.

Why does en.wiki Module:Cite Q use these parameter names? In cs1|2 templates here, |date= and |location= are by far the most preferred parameter aliases.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I can update c:Module:Cite Q to the current version at en:Module:Cite Q, so long as you believe doing so would not break anything. — Huntster (t @ c) 03:12, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I did write: No guarantee that doing so will make things better because the supporting infrastructure is sorely lacking. I meant what I wrote so if you do update c:Module:Cite Q you do it on your own responsibility.

The option to update only lines 15 and line 48 has the least risk and will likely resolve this 'publication-place' and 'publication-date' issue.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 03:52, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I understand, I'm just not well versed in modules so I'm tentative and won't touch the overall module. Just so I'm clear, you're suggesting changing "['publication-place']" to "['location']", and "['publication-date']" to "['date']"? I do appreciate your help in this. — Huntster (t @ c) 05:56, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

['publication-place'] → location

['publication-date'] → date

Brackets and quote marks not required for single-word (unhyphenated) key names.

Make your edit. At the bottom of the edit page is 'Preview page with this template'. Add File:BaiKunting Star and Pa30.jpg to the 'Page title' text box. Click the adjacent 'Show preview' button. If you made the edit correctly, the preview will not show the (Please provide a date or year) message; will not show a glaring red error message; will show '15 September 2021'. Add an edit summary and click 'Publish changes'. Done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

You're a hero. Thank you for your patient explanations. They are appreciated. — Huntster (t @ c) 21:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)