Template talk:Cite DNB

Add ref=harv by default?

Is there a reason that this template does not add |ref=harv by default? Edmund Law Lushington, as one example among many, has a short reference "Bayne 1901" that is intended to link to the full citation, but the link is silently broken. In a short article with just two or three references, this is no big deal, but in a longer article, readers are left hunting for the full citation. I can't think of any downside to adding |ref=harv as a default for this template. Thoughts? – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

With no objection thus far, and after seeing that {{Cite ODNB}} also includes |ref=harv as a default, I have copied the way that |ref= is used in that template. This will fix invisible linking problems in many hundreds of articles. Please post a note here if this change has broken anything. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

@User:Jonesey95 The reasons for not including a default reference was because not all usage of this template is for citations, consequently it would flag up warnings when placed in "Further reading" or "external link" sections. This was deliberate and as was defaulting {{DNB}} which is only ever used as a citation. Similarly if you had looked through the {{cite ODNB}} talk page you would have found a discussion as to whether or not to include ref=harv in the template and why it was decided to set it by default -- PBS (talk) 13:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

If you are referring to the warnings that appear when certain .js scripts are used by logged in editors, those warnings are typically false positives that can be suppressed by using a better script. See Category:Harv and Sfn template errors for details. The change above, as far as I know, fixed actual errors in actual articles, which is helpful to all readers and editors. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The wrapper templates like this one simply followed what was the practice with templates such as {{cite encyclopedia}}. The outliers were the attribution templates that by default set the parameter ref=harv (as was done with {{citation}}), because such attribution templates should only be used if there was text copied from a source. You say "The change above, as far as I know, fixed actual errors in actual articles", but it could also introduce errors. For example if there were two citations using the same author and date in an article and one of them was in further reading. Turning on this parameter could cause a link to be made to the wrong long reference. Having the same author and date is not uncommon for sources such as the DNB as one scholar will often contribute all the articles to a dynasty and because they are listed alphabetically they will be published in the same volume (hence the same date). -- PBS (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

"Multiple target" errors are a legitimate concern that arose from adding |ref=harv to the CS1 templates by default. Happily, there are only 57 articles in Category:Harv and Sfn multiple-target errors that also transclude Template:Cite DNB. I will take a look at them to see if the above change caused any of those errors (some are no doubt caused by other templates) and fix any problems that I am able to fix. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I went through those 57 articles and fixed errors in about half of them. There was one article with a multiple target error caused by Cite ODNB, and none caused by Cite DNB. Thanks for bringing this potential problem to my attention, and let me know if you see any other negative side effects of this change. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Provide default language setting

As proposed at Template talk:Cite EB1911#Provide default language setting, I think it would be right to provide a default |language=en to {{Cite encyclopedia}}, for those rare cases when a reference is copied to another-language wiki. There should be no visible difference in en wikis. Makes sense? I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper works, but I'll go ahead and try if nobody objects. David Brooks (talk) 22:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper works Is there something wrong with Module:template wrapper or how it implements this template?

Adding |language=en is trivial. I do not object.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: No, I've no reason to doubt the stability of the module. It's just as a non-template-programmer I've not internalized the specification of the mechanisms for filtering parameters through the levels. I'll tool around in the sandbox. It's not urgent of course.

I assume it's simpler to just ignore any explicit |language=xx in the source invocation when referring to a book that is known to be entirely in English. Would that be acceptable policy?

This comes out of a conversation with Fourthords, and it now occurs to me that the same considerations would apply to most of the clients of {{cite encyclopedia}}, which are generally in one specific language (unless there's an ISO code for "slightly archaic late-Victorian British English").

 Done, also {{Cite EB1911}}. There are probably many more English-language encyclopedia sources where the same argument could apply. David Brooks (talk) 19:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 May 2021

Add code to force "language=en": the book is entirely in English and this will trigger the "other language" flag in case the citation is copied uncritically to another language wiki. Discussed at Template talk:Cite DNB#Provide default language setting. The new code is in the sandbox and appropriately tested. This should also flow through to Template:DNB. David Brooks (talk) 16:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:48, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Third DNB Supplement

To note that s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1927 supplement is now available on Wikisource. To me, as an outsider, it looks like updating this template so that {{cite DNB27}} and {{DNB27}} can be created on the DNB12 models should be relatively straightforward, with 3 for 2. But I don't think I should be doing that. @PBS: @Billinghurst: Charles Matthews (talk) 05:57, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@Charles Matthews: Would you be able to set up some working examples in {{Cite DNB/testcases}}. Thanks. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Not managing very well at /testcases. As a use case, Draft:Charles Moore Watson based on a DNB27 conversion shows what I'd need. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:50, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

{{cite DNB27/sandbox|author=Charles Venn Owen|wstitle=Watson, Charles Moore}}

Charles Venn Owen (1927). "Watson, Charles Moore" . In Davis, H. W. C.; Weaver, J. R. H. (eds.). Dictionary of National Biography (3rd supplement). London: Smith, Elder & Co.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I have built it in the template's sandbox, and would appreciate some other testcases in place prior to rolling it out. Noting that it wasn't so straightforward as there is no volumes in DNB27, which was a condition for these templates. Anyway, I think that I have structurally improved the template anyway with more switches, which should make it easier to add supplement 4 in another 10+ years <shrug> @PBS: you may want to check my workings. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The sandbox version appears to have dropped Sidney Lee as an editor for volumes 21 and 22, and possibly other volumes. See the yellow output on the testcases page. Is this intentional? More comprehensive testcases may be needed to check for subtle changes such as this one. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

If we are to believe the table at Dictionary of National Biography § First series contents, vols 1–21 were edited by Stephen, vols 22–26 were edited by Stephen & Lee, and vols 27–63 were edited by Lee. If that table is correct then the live template is broken. I have tweaked the sandbox and the ~/testcases.

Previous text in this post deleted because the tweaks to the ~/sandbox make that post meaningless.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:36, 15 April 2023 (UTC) 14:55, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I have updated the live template from the sandbox. Report any errors or anomalies here.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2023 (UTC)