Talk:Northern Ireland Protocol

Suggest Protecting This Article

With the EU's lawsuit today, things could get nasty.

I suggest propecting this article.

2601:8A:C180:70:58FF:D843:8989:98CB (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

PROTECTION REQUESTED: --- See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection/Increase 2601:8A:C180:70:58FF:D843:8989:98CB (talk) 16:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Such a request would have to include evidence of frequent disruptive editing which, so far at least, doesn't exist. If that changes then the request will be made. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:59, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

2022 Assembly election

[First three posts originally written at user talk:John Maynard Friedman and moved here at my request because other editors may wish to contribute to the discussion on how best to integrate band develop this thread.]

Last night you [JMF] updated my changes to Assembly election section of the Northern Ireland Protocol article, for the better in my opinion. However there is only one line dedicated to the DUP's refusal to nominate a DFM, and not mention of Paul Given's resignation 2 months before the election or the refusal to vote for a speaker after the election. In my opinion there should be an entire section detailing the Stormont shutdown. Do you agree? ApatheticName (talk) 13:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@ApatheticName:, even as it is I felt that we would risk drifting off-topic, but maybe that is because the section is headed "2022 Assembly election". So what about turning it on its head, following the model of the NIP Bill article with a section called "Reaction"? Do you want to have a go? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh wait, we already have Northern Ireland Protocol#Political reaction to implementation so maybe the problem you perceive only arises because the section on the Assembly elections should be move to become a subsection of this section, rather than stand alone? I can't get a proper overview on mobile, can you do it? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:06, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@ApatheticName: This discussion should really take place at talk: Northern Ireland Protocol. Would you cut'n'paste it over there please, as other editors may want to contribute. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:02, 12 July 2022 (UTC) ApatheticName (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I have been bold and moved the sections on Legal challenge, 2022 NIA elections and the Bill up into ==Reactions==. Further improvement welcome. @ApatheticName:, would you like to add a sentence or two on Given's resignation to the ===Unionist reaction=== subsection? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Link to Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border

There is a link in the lede to Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border - it had been piped to Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border|UK-Ireland border. I removed the piping - any disputes about the article should resolved at the article's page, not at each link. An editor, John Maynard Friedman reverted, writing in the edit summary "rv good faith but see WP:IRE-IRL" There are two changes - the editor has replaced "Republic of Ireland" with "Ireland" and has reordered the naming, from placing Ireland first to placing UK first. The first change ("Ireland" instead of "Republic of Ireland") would seem to run afoul of the MOS that the editor linked to, specifically: "* Use "Ireland" for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use "Republic of Ireland" (e.g. "Strabane is at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland")." And there is no justification given for reordering the names of the countries from how they appear in the main article. Jd2718 (talk) 15:46, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for taking it to the talk page. This one really is a judgement call, with no obviously right answer. It is also a political minefield!

1. The border is an international border between sovereign states: (a) Ireland and (b) the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So "UK–Ireland border" (and "Ireland–UK border") is accurate in this respect and I think complies with WP:IRE-IRL.
   1. Note that the name of the state is "Ireland", not "Republic of Ireland" (which is only a disambiguating description – unlike République française not France or Repubblica Italiana, not Italy).
   2. In your edit that removed the pipe, you called it "WP:POINTy piping": maybe you are right but I took it as good faith reflection of this perspective.
2. The border is also one that separates two polities on the island so it is the Republic of Ireland–Northern Ireland border. This also complies with WP:IRE-IRL.
3. The Protocol itself is formally "Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland".
4. Some writers duck the issue by referring to "the Irish border" (see Brexit and the Irish border, for example).
5. There are pages of debate at talk:Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border about the title, which I have no intention of rerunning here. But a quick review of those discussions should tell us that if there were an easy solution, it would already have been found.
   1. Could we just avoid the issue by writing The border has had a special status since the thirty-year internecine conflict in Northern Ireland was ended by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998, since the border in question has already been defined in the first sentence of the article. No, I guess not, since in 1998 it was an internal EU border.

I won't object if you counter-revert but I won't be surprised if gets "corrected" again. Meanwhile it is worth leaving a record of the discussion here for future reference. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi both, jumping in quickly in the hope we find a middle ground. I think that to @Jd2718's point the link is not where the change should be made. To @John Maynard Friedman's point, I think we should try to find the correct name even if it means challenging previous debates and consensus - in this case the "Ireland/United Kingdom" or "Ireland/Northern Ireland" border seems to be a better name (the UK, Ireland and the EU all use this format by the way) and the Wikipedia:IRE-IRL specifies "An exception is where the state forms a major component of the topic" - which seems to be the case here. I'd say the best way forward would be to avoid any edits on the links but instead try to update the source article. @John Maynard Friedman I'll see what I can do on the main article. Please folks let's just not engage in an edit war here :) AlanTheScientist (talk) 19:31, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I have no intention of edit warring, indeed I have already assented to a counter-revert. My intention was only to explain why I don't believe that whoever did that pipe was being POINTy, that it was credibly a good faith edit. I also agree that the real problem is the name of the underlying article. Good luck with securing agreement to a name change, you'll need it! --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:49, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted my reversion in the light of the discussion above. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the discussion here (I include both you and AlanTheScientist). I am not sure there is a right answer, but I'm glad a record of this discussion will remain, for others to consider in the future. As far as edit warring, I do not have the energy or time. And finally, I did not identify the original edit, and assumed it was made a long time ago, and never noticed until now. I apologize for calling it point-y, by your words here it is clear that you had no such intent. Jd2718 (talk) 16:47, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Prospective change of name (to Windsor Framework)?

I see that the EU and UK have decided to have a change of name is needed to mark a new beginning:

(5) The Union and the United Kingdom have made a Joint Declaration in the Joint Committee to the effect that, wherever relevant in their dealings under the Withdrawal Agreement, they will, consistent with the requirements of legal certainty, refer to the Protocol as amended as to the “Windsor Framework”, and that they may in the same way refer to the Protocol as amended in their domestic legislation.

I can understand the politics of that move, but the historical narrative needs to be preserved. So if anyone is thinking of doing a simple move, this is to put down a marker to say it would be controversial and would require debate. It may be easier to start a new article? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Just to wrap up, the question does not arise since an article – Windsor Framework – has been created and stands on its own merits. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Notice of request in progress, to revert the changed name of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill article

See Talk:Northern Ireland Protocol Bill 2022–23#Requested move 6 March 2023. Please contribute your views there. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2023 (UTC)