Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Archive 8

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NLPers trying to sanitize NLP again

I noticed a couple of bits of sanitization of NLP again. Comaze and another proNLP editor stated that NLP was not used in the same way as Dianetics and that NLP is not used in the field. There is also the convenient changing of the title from engrams (even though engrams are all over the passage) to the memory trace. Lets just take a good look at NLP and start pasting more of the commonly new age concepts back in there without trying to whitewash. It may be objectionable to NLPers who deny that their subject is flakey but it is a fact after all. Camridge 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

In your recent edit you removed this statement which was already agreed upon, "Barrett (2003) says that NLP is not an organisation, but as a philosophy has some characteristics of a religion (p 431)". see diffs. I think needs to go back in. I'd appreciate it if you discussed controversial edits like this before committing them. Let's avoid any "edit wars". --Comaze 01:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement ignored. Brevity and relevance is priority. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Would you like to ask for a neutral third opinion on this? --Comaze 06:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Nagging statement ignored. Camridge 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Some Anonymous Commentary

I've been involved in NLP since 1992, and have trained with both co-founders of the field. I've also interacted with a wide range of the biggest names in the field, and I found little in this entire article which bears any resemblance to what a dictionary definition of what NLP is. There is an entire encyclopedia of NLP written by Robert Dilts, who is perhaps the least controversial figure among the different sides within NLP. It's located here [1]. Whole sections of this article cover things I've never even heard discussed in connection to NLP including the cult activities, etc. As someone who's read 80% of the primary scientific research on NLP, the jury is still out, and the research is relatively thin. Only a few of the main topics have been given any experimental study, and even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory. This article shouldn't be pro-Bander or pro-Grinder, or pro-NLP, or pro-the critics of NLP. It should simply be a factually accurate article which isn't organized for the purpose of bias, and this I'm afraid sadly is.

I moved your anonymous slab of text from the top of the page to the bottom where it belongs. It would be useful if you honoured Wikipedia convention by adding new subsections to the bottom and by signing your contribution using four consecutive tildes [~]. On to the content of your post. Firstly, if you had actually read the article and referred to the citations you'd see that Dilts and DeLoziers Encuclopedia is referenced extensively (especially by me). Secondly, there is no "dictionary definition" of what NLP is and if there were what would its relevance be? Are you suggesting that we know what "art" is and nothing more can be said about aesthetics because it is defined in a dictionary? Can I rebut a social constructivist by stating that there is a definition of "reality" in the dictionary? I don't follow what the connection is between your totally unpersuasive boasting (because most of the editors don't esteem Bandler, Grinder, Baffa, La Valle etc.) about being a long-standing and enmeshed member of the NLP granfalloon and what you would find in a hypotherical dictionary definition. I suspect that you are attempting to communicate that your experience of NLP is inconsistent with the content of the article. If so then you are attempting to persuade us not with evidence and argumentation but rather with your putative authority and anecdotage. How then would we reconcile your assertions with contrary assertions? Thirdly, what exactly is the signficance of what you personally have and haven't "heard discussed in connection to NLP". Are you proposing that we adopt your knowledge as the criterion for determining truth? All of the descriptions of NLP are accompanied by citations from primary NLP sources and NLP websites. Your criticism is vague and general. What aspect of NLP or expert opinion in the article is mischaracterised, misinterpreted or fabricated? Fourthly, your're not in a position to declare that "the jury is still out". Heap (1988), Sharpley (1984), Sharpley (1987), Lilienfeld (2003), Singer & Lalich (1999), Eisner (2000), Lilienfeld et al (2003), Helisch (2004), Williams (2000), Drenth (2003), Salerno (2005), Bertelsen (1987), Druckman and Swets (1988), Beyerstein (1997), Winkin’s (1990), Levelt (1995), Bordlein (2001), Sala et al (1999), Morgan (1993) suggest otherwise. By what mechanism does your opining negate these expert conclusions? Fourthly, it is not the case that "the research is relatively thin". Most of the citations refer to literature reviews that present comprehensive reviews (eg. Shaprpley, 1984, 1987; Druckman & Swets, 1988). What is "thin" is studies that have found support for NLP. Fifthly, you write that "even in the case of eye-accessing cues, which most of the research has been devoted to, some studies say it works, and some don't, and in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory". Eye accessing cues and PRS have been well investigated and found to be unsupported (Sharpley, 1984; Sharpley, 1987). It is plainly false to say "some studies say it works, and some don't". Other areas of NLP have also been investigated and also found to be unsupported by evidence (Druckman & Swets, 1988; Dixon et al, 1986; Baddeley, 1989; Elich et al, 1985; Melvin & Miller, 1988). On what basis can you claim that "in most cases methodology is likely to be the cause of the results, not the theory"? So you have a priori knowledge that NLP-predicted eye movements are true and any study which shows otherwise must be methodologically flawed because it conflicts with your a priori knowledge. The truth of eye accessing cues then is a matter of faith for you. In any event this is merely for your education. Experts that know more about cognition, linguistics, psycholinguistics, neurology, and social psychology have conducted studies and reviewed them and decided that NLP is bunkum. Sixthly, you aren't actually after a "factually accurate article". You have an a priori conception of NLP as theoretically sound and effective. For you -- as made evident by your remark regarding eye accessing cues -- that NLP is sound and true is axiomatic, it is "first principle". If an emprical test fails to substantiate an NLP hypothesis that study must -- by logical implication since the correctness of NLP is axiomatic -- be flawed. If NLP fails a meta-theoretic analysis that analysis -- by logical implication -- must be based on a misundersatnding. You have a faith based position, NLP satisfies at least a component of your religiosity, it is one of the constants that forms your Weltenschaung, like God for faith-based theists. flavius 03:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Anon. Welcome to comment. I think if you go to various NLP newsgroups, you will find Dilts to be quite controversial. He says all kinds of strange things that NLPers don't like, including adding the logical levels and spirit stuff. There is also a huge lot of pseudoscience in the encyclopedia he wrote, so he is enormously odd according to scientists. His description of neurological phenomena is largely erroneous. There are a great many views about NLP and Wikipedia is designed to include all significant views. There are things that NLP newsgroups tend not to talk about. Remember that NLP is very promotional. So they won't mention NLP cults or cults using NLP because it is generally bad press. They also will not mention the court cases and litigation from advertising standards bodies. All cults deny that they are cults, including the likes of Dianetics and other such pseudoscietific psychocults. They are pretty bad at looking in the mirror though. The research on NLP shows that it is many things; scientifically unsupported, ineffective, pseudoscientific, principally erroneous and so on according to the literature. This NLP article reports those findings. I understand you would want to advocate your own "knowledge" of NLP but really there has been a great deal of research done on this matter by a number of thorough researchers here. There are people such as yourself who deny the facts, but the facts have been verified many times and corroborated by other research and other researchers such as Platt (2002) who has appeared and given his account of the state of NLP. If you require further evidence please check out the references yourself. You will find they are indeed solidly factual. NLP is in fact pseudoscientific in principle, in theory, in practice, and in excuse. Cheers DaveRight 02:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi anonymous. It has been said that NLPers are generally unable to countenance scientific reviews of NLP because they are negative overall. The more recent reviews show that the supporting studies are fatally flawed, and the studies showing NLP is wrong or ineffective are rigorous, well done, and published to a higher standard. Mind myths are quite elusive things, and it is so easy to swallow pleasant concepts of empowerment, but quite hard to face reality sometimes. I understand you are probably up against some very hard facts. Thats life, and if you just keep moving forward you can lose the cumbersome baggage quite easily. There are good rigorous methods and research in clinical psychology, and some very well supported methods such as CBT. Best go and seek out the golden nuggets of fact and lose the NLP dross. You sound well intentioned to me. Best regards Camridge 03:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Avoid Comaze's Persistent Antagonism and Conflict Promotion: Remove his groundless objections, and stay cool

Hello all. This is not a personal attack, it is advice for reduction of conflict in order the article be further improved. I must point out that Comaze is deliberately stiring up trouble. He has stopped posting sockpuppet labels on editor's pages (though he refuses to remove them), but his strategy now is to find any excuse to accuse editors of making personal attacks on him and makes multiple complaints on multiple personal pages. Comaze has just tried to mix criticism with the above NLP section even though the criticisms were seperated from the NLP claims section in order to reduce conflict. Therefore, Comaze's agenda is to create conflict through antagonism and vexatious litigation. Solution: Remove his objections from your personal pages, ignore his persistent nagging, revert his conflict stiring actions, and just stay cool. Cheers DaveRight 02:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Please see your talk page for a reply. I have already asked you if you want to get an RfC to resolve our content disputes. If you think it is getting too personal send me a email or private message. --Comaze 03:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Its good advice Dave. Comaze is as persistently damaging as anyone could be to any editor's state of mind. Lets all just be reasonable, chill out and get on with research/editing. Camridge 03:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

This comment from Camridge, "Comaze is as persistently damaging [...] to any editor's state of mind." is the type of comment against me that I have subjected to by (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, JPLogan, DaveRight, D.Right, and group) for months. I posted requests on their talk pages to stop only to be ignored. I'm surpirsed that this continues even after the request for arbitration was accepted. I feel that this group of editors are trying to "own" the article and talk page. I really want this to work so I'm still open to negotiation. Please contact me by private message if you want to discuss privately. --Comaze 00:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, considering your history and persistent troublesome antics, the effort to point out your desire to mess things up for editors is entirely justified. Ignoring your persistent "tedious and uncooperative" behavior is about the healthiest attitude an editor can adopt. Briefly pointing out your nuisance is also an option. I believe it would actually be helpful for editors on this article to have standard replies that people could simply paste to you, such as "your unreasonable objection has been ignored" and so on. This would at least save time. You have asked so many deliberately obtuse repeat questions, and made so many repeat demands against reason that you take up a considerable portion of the effort wasting parts of the archives. You certainly don't deserve such careful replies. JPLogan 02:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze! You have reverted to your surreptitious mixing of edits in order to make them harder to correct/revert so you can push your agenda, and even when our mediator VoiceOfAll told you not to do so. If you do it again, I do not care how seemingly constructive some of the edits seem, I will simply revert your surreptitious editing. It is completely reasonable for any other editor to revert your nonsense as such. Your persistent nuisance has been noted. JPLogan 03:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

JPlogan, I actually asked direct questions about RfC and asked if the editors would accept the opinion of a third party as binding. We need to resolve content disputes if we are going to get a Fact and Reference check. --Comaze 12:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yo Comaze. Throughout mediation facts have been checked, and it turns out that they were placed in good faith and checked out according to mediators and editors and outside parties. You continue to find fault in the references because you act in bad faith constantly. (apart from what I just said) I suggest you be ignored. DaveRight 03:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Perls and Dianetics, continued

Dave Right,

Please justify your reversion ([[2]] to my edit to the article, re: Perls and Dianetics.

In the week since I proposed that edit, no one came forth with a verifiable source for the assertion that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics.

No one objected when I said I was going forward with the edit, and now that you have reverted it, you have left an insufficent explanation: "the Perls facts are well substantiated both here and on the discussion page". No, they have not been -- so you need to explain yourself.

I understand that you and some of the other editors believe that Dianetics and Perls' work shares any number of characteristics. That may be true. But you can't infer that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics on the basis of that similarity.

It's one thing to play fast and loose with impersonal facts, but its another thing altogether when by doing so, you may be libeling someone. Consider the controversy over John Siegenthaler if you need further evidence of how this can hurt Wikipedia.

I won't be bullied out of a simple correction of fact. Prove that Perls promoted or practiced Dianetics, and I'll be happy as -- well -- a clam. Otherwise, let someone who you might not agree with edit the page for once.

Just FYI: I don't have any stake in Perls. It's just that I never heard of him promoting or practicing Dianetics before I came to upon this article and this discussion. And to this day, I still haven't seen that case made anywhere else.

Sincerely, Shunpiker 06:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Shunpiker. I still see no libel in stating that Perls was a dianetics supporter especially with the evidence provided. You seem to want to censor on the basis that dianetics is currently out of vogue. I have seen several compelling links and and refs here and a lot of explanation power in the inclusion of Perl's background in dianetics. It needs to be explained somewhere why dianetics is often classed with NLP, and why a lot of people who have encountered dianetics are reminded of it when they hear of NLP. The Perls connection is very clarifying. Simply removing it on the basis of your spurious claim to libel is entirely against clear editing. Your action positively screams of bias and coverup. Editors here provided you with plenty of evidence in order that you would not remove the fact. You have indeed seen it mentioned elsewhere that Perls was a dianetics supporter (in the links provided on this discussion page). You also have seen that his baby - gestalt therapy - is partly derived from dianetics(also in the links). That evidence already speaks volumes about the nature and background of NLP both in theory and in promotion. Your action is very similar to other promoters of NLP on this article who deny the evidence even after it is provided, and who simply remove the whole fact regardless of substantial support for the fact. Your claim to neutrality is seriously in doubt. Camridge 06:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge,

This isn't about whether *you* see no problem in making arbitrary statements. Wikipedia isn't about what you think or what I think. Your experiences and my experience constitute original research, and Wikipedia forbids that.

Asking the authors of a controversial statement to provide verifiable sources is not censorship. It's Wikipedia's Verifiability policy.

No verifiable source has been produced to demonstrate that Perls 1) promoted or 2) practiced Dianetics. It's not enough to find sources that say that Gestalt Therapy is like Dianetics or that Fritz Perls gave L. Ron Hubbard long back massages in the sauna at Esalen. If you're going to put forward the statement that Perls promoted and practiced Dianetics, you need sources that say just that.

Don't you think it's funny that Wikipedia is the only place on the Internet where these assertions are being made? Don't you think it's funny that even on Wikipedia, they don't appear in the Perls article? Nor in the Dianetics article.

Sincerely, Shunpiker 09:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It may be nitpicking, but shouldn't the assumed roots of Gestalt Therapy be in the appropriate article Gestalt Therapy, instead of ths one? After all, even if we assumed your source to be valid it would be only a derived (via Perls) influence on NLP. Blauregen 09:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Listen guys, NLP developers make the claim to Perls, and there is a reason for that. If you want to remove the fact that he promoted dianetics, I think you are rather removing the background influences of NLP. There are far more links about Perls and NLP and dianetics/Hubbard also. Perhaps I should start putting those in to emphasize the fact! Did you even bother to check the biographies and Gestalt therapy books that state Perls promoted and practiced dianetics? Judging by your pressure towards censorship, it looks like you don't even want to. NLP is so confusing, any explanatory facts such as background can only be helpful. If you never read the fact that Perls was a dianetics fan, then I suggest you have been reading selectively to look for support for your belief in NLP. The fact is clear that Perls supported dianetics. If you want to rephrase it, go ahead. But to me it looks like you just want to remove the fact of the face of the article. Another way to go would be to look at the direct comparison between dianetics and NLP. The list is amazing: Pseudoscientific, Jargon ridden, Korzybski, command hypnotics, general semantics, reluctance to test, trauma removal, unconsciousness misconceptions and engrams, links with EST/Landmark forum, cultlike, faddy and applied to therapy, new age, occult connections, human potential movement, past lives therapy, claims to magic, and many more. Camridge 10:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

No worries Camridge. They just want it completely deleted. Reversion is perfectly acceptable considering the sources. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the background to NLP and the new age. Some of your above explanations could be turned into a line or two for the article and all within NPOV policey regs. Cheers DaveRight 02:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Not really. While i appreciate your efforts to caution the public about the effectiveness of NLP and most other speech therapies, the fact that Hubbard and Perls may have exchanged ideas, or that Perls may have tested Hubbards ideas simply bears no relevance for an article on the subject of NLP. Even if Perls gestalt therapy would have been strongly influenced by dianetics, it would be something that belongs into the gestalt therapy article, not into the NLP article. Similar, the notion that Hubbard was influenced by Crowleys writings would belong into the dianetics article, not the gestalt therapy article. Further on the NLP founders claim to have 'modeled' the method of Perls communication to his clients, not the theoretical background of gestalt therapy. It is clear that at least Bandler was influenced by it though, given he ran his own gestalt therapy group, however he himself was as far as i know never associated to any practice of dianetics. Nor was Grinder. As for a direct and comprehensive comparision of NLP to dianetics: If you provided one i must have overlooked it. Could you please provide it again? Blauregen 09:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Blauregen. The effort is towards clarification rather than warning. Education is an important aspect of Wikipedia. NLP is classed together with other pseudosciences, especially that of Dianetics. When writing about the background influences of NLP, one must research thoroughly. Its no good looking through NLP books because they will claim Einstein, Alan Turing, Chomsky, Bateson and anyone else who sounds like a great authority figure. And any similarities between NLP theory and those great minds is entirely erroneous and spurious according to the critical and scientific literature. NLP was dreamt up around Esalen institute at the begining of the new new age (when new age became popular). This is the height of the human potential movement and was influenced strongly by Hubbard. It was also a time when people were making a lot of money out of cults. EST, Scientology and so on all made people very rich, and of course, plenty of other pseudo - therapies were cashing in. So BnG put together a set of very inticing candies and easy to swallow pseudoscientific notions, with a belief system and pseudoterminology structure taken straight from Hubbard. Chronologically, philosophically, anthropologically, socially, NLP and dianetics/scientology are inextricably linked. Perls is but one strong link, who followed Hubbard in practice and in principle. Perls was disagreable, deliberately strange, followed (claimed to follow) eastern philosophies such as Buddhism and Zen, practiced dianetics, promoted dianetics, and used all the same pseudoscientific notions of subconscious programming that Hubbard used. I'm sure we only need a line or two to explain this. It is an accurate placing of NLP within 20th century pseudoscientific new age/human potential movement and cult following. It explains to some extent why NLP is so pseudoscientific. Camridge 10:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Camridge. The notion that someone classes NLP together with "other pseudosciences" bears no relevance to the proposed link to Hubbards 'tech'. Neither does a claim to have modeled Perls therapeutic approach make NLP a derivation of gestalt therapy. In the same way that a claim to have modeled the communication strategies of Jesus or the problem solving strategies of Einstein does not link NLP to christianity or physics. So even if your claim that Perls followed Hubbard in principle and practice were true, it would not constitute a link. If you believe that NLP bears a similarity to dianetics please either provide a reputable source that documents a direct development from dianetics to NLP or a similar source that shows similiraties between NLP and dianetics. I was unable to find either, so it would be helpful if you would support this particular notion with more than a few fuzzy associations concerning new age, name dropping and the alleged common use of a term like engram.--Blauregen 09:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Engrams - enneagrams

Akulkis. Take a look at the literature. The use of the engram is abundant within NLP, as you can see by following the references. It is intellectually completely correct to place facts that have been verified, even under mediation as is the case here. In addition, NLP is a new age development that has drawn deeply from the pseudoscience of dianetics as so much of the human potential industry has.

Enneagram is also used within NLP, but that is a different matter. Enneagram is a kind of geometrical pseudoscience similar to biorhythms and astrology. It can be mentioned, but on different sections. Your understanding of the subject is flawed, and I suggest you look further into the development of new age developments of the 60s and 70s. Camridge 07:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I will present this as evidence in the arbitration request. A simple search on google proves my point... NLP+engram (440) v. NLP+enneagram (60,000). DaveRight/HeadleyDown/Camridge/AliceDeGrey have engaged in a co-ordinated effort to revert to keep engram in the article. Essentially attempting to "own" the article and provide spurious links to Dianetics. Here is a copy of a private message that I sent to DaveRight after persistant reverts to add engrams to the article.

"I don't want to clutter up the discussion page with items that have already been discussed at length. I don't know where you get this idea of engram from, maybe you are confusiong engram with enneagram (a personality typing system)? A simple search on google proves my point... NLP+engram (440) v. NLP+enneagram (60,000) [1]. For NLP+engram, HeadleyDown's talk page is No.1 result. Don't you think that it is very interesting? If you want to take this matter to arbitration that's fine. But let's try and sort this out first. Also, when you say, "Computationalism also recognises the engram concept." What is your source for this? My sources state that the connectionists who research memory traces (ie. engrams) in mental activity choose to ignore cogitivists idea of computationalism that the mind is essentially a Turing Machine. --Comaze 00:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)"

After many requests, not one authorative or reputable reference has been provided that connects engram to NLP, except for Sinclair's self-published book that does not have enough citiations to warrant inclusion in the article --- Sinclair does not provide one reference for his claim, nor is Sinclair an authoritative figure in NLP, and Drenth (2003) is the same -- Drenth (2003) does not have any known citations nor does it provide any reference for the claim that engram is connected to NLP. If such evidence exists then present it. Given that there is no evidence that Bandler, Grinder, Malloy, Cameron-Bandler, Connirae Andreas, Dilts, Delozier, O'Connor have ever mentioned engram, I find it very difficult to accept that this could be anything other than original research. From memory the closest I've found is a mention of Hebb theory related to memory storage and neural networks in NLP literature. Ofcourse this would all change if someone provided some primary sources. --Comaze 08:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This truly is a great example of Comaze's bad faith. After nagging for more and more references to support the fact that engrams are a concept used in NLP, plus explanations as to the use of the concept implicitly throughout ALL the NLP books by ALL authors (VAK, KVA, circuits etc) WITH diagrams, Comaze continues to deny them. Currently we have many solid references that place engrams in NLP. Comaze has surreptitiously tried to remove them all at some point, but they are there. It is indeed extremely churlish and antagonistic to demand so many references and deny the fact after such information has been provided. Comaze, you deserved to be ignored. Bookmain 09:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Bookmain, Since we have been unable to reach agreement after such a long period -- let's leave it up to arbitration to make a decision that will be binding either way. I have contacted experts from different schools of NLP and they have confirmed that engram is not, and never has been connected to NLP. Let me remind you that nobody has yet provided ANY authoritative references to connect engram to NLP. The quick google test confirms it. The only reason it is included in the article is to provide confusions --- engram is a key concept in Dianetics, and Scientoloy. The current inclusion of engram in this article violates Wikipedia:No_original_research --Comaze 10:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your denial borders on delusion. We have links to encyclopedias, NLP proponents, promoters, and NLP authors. Dilts, Bandler, Grinder all use the VAK circuit in the context of the subconscious and the brain. Just like Hubbard. Your objection is as unreasonable as always. Camridge 10:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Really? I suggest that you prepare a response to arbitration because from your response I do not think you have any grounds to include engrams or Dianetics in the article at all. Dilts, Bandler, Grinder don't even use subconscious. Their definitions of conscious/unconscious are imported from the work of Milton H. Erickson and George A. Miller's (7+/-2 chunks) see the references provided in Structure 1&2 (1975), Patterns 1&2 (1976, 1977), etc. --Comaze 10:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

PS, concerning Akulkis's rather obtuse edits, I think we can also add some information about enneagrams in the pseudoscience or dubious applications section. Bookmain 09:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The only use of enneagram was imported from Virginia Satir categories (Distractor, Computer, etc) personality types published in Structure of Magic Vol.2 (1975b). As far as I am aware this has been dropped from NLP. Do you have evidence to prove otherwise? --Comaze 10:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Comaze, there are whole books written about NLP and enneagrams. Look them up. Camridge 10:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, it seems that latest is "The Enneagram and NLP" (1994), it has two known citations on google scholar. A quick google scholar test also prove to be fruitful for the argument the engram is not part of Neuro-linguistic programming. Two pages of results of "Neuro-linguistic Programming+Enneagram" (mostly related to Neuro-linguistic Programming) and no results for "Neuro-linguistic Programming"+engram or NLP+engram. It is not looking good for your group's argument. I strongly suggest that you offer a comprimise because I will not engage in an edit war over this, and it would look better for all parties if we resolved this. --Comaze 10:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze there are loads of books on NLP enneagrams [3]. And as you already know, engrams are intrinsic to NLP as stated by Drenth, Levelt, Singleton, Baeart and many others. The only reason you deny now, is because you have another fanatic to support your erroneous thinking. Your bias has indeed been very much noted. DaveRight 01:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, the early NLP literature CLEARLY shows the use of the term "enneagram", and there is NONE using the term "engram". You're the one making the assertion to the contrary (that the term is engram, not enneagram), therefore the burden of proof is on you. There is no burden to prove a negative (the absence of the use of the term by credible NLP writers). Uncle Joe's NLP Web Page, sprinkled with engram and Dianetics references does not count as a credible source, as in all likelihood, it will have been created by you, or one of DRight's sockpuppets. -- Akulkis Dec 13 22:03:21 UTC 2005.

Akulkis-- Let's see if we can negotiate this. We do not want to create an edit war or revert way over this. Drenth and Sinclair do use engram to describe aspects of NLP. My argument is that these authors are not authoratitive and that primary NLP sources do not and never have used engram. NLP prefers the T.O.T.E. (Miller, Galanter & Pribram, 1960) to describe the neurological and linguistic transforms (see "Putty the Neuro back into NLP" Dr. Bolstad 2003). TOTE can be traced back to the very beginning of NLP (Dilts, Grinder, Bandler, Cameron-Bandler, Delozier 1980; Dilts & Delozier 2000 p.1434; Tosey & Mathison - Curriculum Journal, 2003). --Comaze 00:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This is hilarious. I know NLP gives people a kind of brain damage, but I didn't realise it was this bad. A diet of pseudoscience doesn't help the braincells at all. ---OK according to VoiceOfAll our mediator, the requirements for verifiable evidence has been fulfilled for the engram fact. Under mediation, even though many refs have been provided, including those of professors of psychology and linguistics that state the term - engrams, further evidence was provided and sealed the deal on engrams in NLP. Comaze, we already solved the edit war over this, and it generally involved telling you to stop deleting things several times a day. If there is ANY evidence showing that detractors use the term engram instead of enneagram, then post it up. But there is none. If Aaron Kulkis wants to spread his Mindlist cult diatribe on wikipedia I think we should realise he is as biased as any other NLP fanatic. And judging by his edits, he will need correcting every step of the way. I would get annoyed by having to correct such erroneous thinking, but instead I will take pity and simply revert. I actually enjoyed watching dumb and dumber, so I shouldn't really complain too much. DaveRight 01:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, DaveRigth, it appears that YOU are the one in a cult--specifically, you're part of the "NLP is Dianetics & Scientology & whatever-scary-cult-I-think-of-next-all-of-them-at-the-same-time" cult. I'm an engineer, and very "hard-science" grounded. I'm very much used to testing things, because, hey, as an engineer, if your test results are wrong -- PEOPLE DIE. I have personally tested NLP, and it works. In fact, it works FAR better than I could have ever imagined ... for example, improving my marksmanship scores in annual M-16 qualifications in the army. As for your accusation that NLP is a cult--that doesn't even pass the laugh test. I was once involved with an ACTUAL cult back in my college days, "The Way International" to be specific. Fortunately, my introduction to these people was shortly before the end of the spring semester, and their house-organ/propaganda magazine had some flaky articles (like, "What to do if your parents send you to reprogrammers"), which caught my mothers' attention...and so after talking about it, I cut off all association with that organization. NLP is nothing more than a method for observing and duplicating the behavior of others. NOTHING MORE THAN THAT. NOBODY in the NLP community attempts to use coercive methods, or any form of brainwashing to seperate people learning NLP away from their friends, families, and the rest of their environment, while replacing all, or as much as possible, of their their social contacts with "fellow believers" which is how ACTUAL cults operate. Bandler, Grinder, Dilts, etc, aren't out amassing a mob of people who turn over all of their earthly wealth and posessions to "the organization" the way ACTUAL cults operate. On the other hand, through my study of the methods of mental control which the NLP community uncovered, I now FULLY UNDERSTAND exactly the methods used by "The Way", in terms of both brainwashing, and coercive methods. To call a bunch of people selling some books, and teaching APPLIED psychology a *cult* is not only nonsense, but defamation. --Aaron's bluster Pt I

Aaron/Akaulkis given that you earlier described engineering as science -- something an engineer wouldn't assert -- I don't believe you are an engineer,i.e. you don't possess any sort of qualification and/or experience that would permit you to join any of the professional engineers societies such as IEEE. Perhaps you are a technician. Did you fix things (vehicles, radio equipment, weaponry) in the US Army? If you are a "fix-it" man in the army then you are a technician. Engineers don't repair broken equipment, they design it to specification. You have an almost farcical grasp of the concepts of evidence and emprical testing so I doubt you have grounding in "hard-science". I don't think you even know what science is. Earlier you confused science with technology. Again, if you are a technician for the Army -- which I strongly suspect you are (the alternative is you are just a nutter) -- then you won't have a scientific education beyond that of a high-school graduate (at least in my part of the world). Being a techy in the army is honourable I'm not bagging you for that. I'm bagging you because you are talking out of school. flavius 06:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That must be why I have a Bachelor of Science of Engineering, and yes, I design things in the civilian world. In fact, I'm currently working on securing a patent for a new device for cooling computer systems. Is Thermodynamics and Electrical Engineering "hard science" enough for you? Now shut about things you don't have a fucking clue about, you asshat. Akulkis

I don't think you have a degree in anything: you can't spell, you can't reason from premises to a valid conclusion, you have no grasp of the concept of evidence, you can't differentiate science from technology, your thinking lacks precision (a trait common in engineers), you exhibit no understanding of the methods of science, you are unfamiliar with the history of science, you repeatedly present anecdote as if it were substantive evidence, you over-value your subjective experience, you appear to make no distinction between objectivity and subjectivity. You bring nothing to the article or to the discussion. The totality of your postings can be summarised as (a) NLP works because drill sergeants told me they use NLP; (b) NLP works because in my personal experience it appears to have worked; (c) any study that shows NLP doesn't work is false because of (a) and (b); (d) studies that show that NLP doesn't work are the product of malevolent psychologists that have conspired as a group to discredit NLP and conceal it from an unsuspecting public. These thoughts can come only from a disturbed and disordered mind. You're a poor liar. The degree is called a "Bachelor of Science in [Chemical|Civil|Mechanical|Electrical|Electronics|..] Engineering". No one that has studied for years towards a degree would mis-state their qualification and there is no such thing as generic engineering. Electrical engineering isn't science, it's applied science any engineeer would know that. Electrical engineering syllabi do not include units on thermodynamics. Thermodynamics are irrelevant to electrical and computer engineering only mechanical and aeronautical engineering have any use for thermodynamics. Cooling systems -- even on computers -- are the province of mechanical engineers not electrical engineers. Your ignorance has betrayed you. flavius 13:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

No, thermodynamics is NOT required to design computers. But the Deans of engineering insisted that I include thermo on my plan of study -- because I basically pursued a "design your own" engineering degree,

and their opinion was that (I wasn't pursuing a EE degree, nor have I ever claimed such), that I should study Thermo, and that they would not approve my plan of study unless I could provide a valid reason for excluding it. So, as much as I hated the class, and the reasons for it, I took it. And, it seems, it might end up being the most important engineering course (out of approx 80 cr. hours of engineering courses). Now, enough of this nonsense about my education, and your IGNORANT BULLSHIT LIES about the lack of same.

Hello Flavius. It is common with NLPers to "reframe" their status. Akulkis could be a sanitory engineer (toilet attendant). Camridge 07:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Spot the ad hominem attack. You don't need 4 semesters of calculus, nor classes in descrete & continous systems and signals analysis, or finite mathematics, nor 10 credit hours of physics to be a toilet attendant. Now, Mr.Has-to-hide-behind-a-pseudonym, apologize and retract your idiotic comment. Akulkis

No, you don't need all that study to be a toilet attendant. So you're admitting that you are a toilet attendant? The phrase "ad hominem attack" is both meaningless and misplaced. Ad Hominem in the context of debate is a contraction of Ad Hominem Argumentum, ie. "argument against the man". So it doesn't make sense to say "ad hominem attack", it's redundant. More importantly, an insult does not equate to Ad Hominem. An insult is just an insult. Ad Hominem describes a broad category of logical fallacies in which the proponent of an argument is attacked rather than his/her arguments. Rather than address the substance of the argument, the person committing Ad Hominem criticises the proponent. Your posts are Ad Hominem par excellence. Rather than address the substance of the papers critical of NLP you instead impute selfish and malevolent motives to the researchers (and you do so without any evidence). You response to all arguments has been Ad Hominem: the critical editors have ulterior motives, researchers have ulterior motives, the critical editors are ignorant ad nauseum. This is a vacuous position and I can't determine how you will sustain it. flavius 14:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

There you go, just making up shit again. Flavius, either grow up, or fuck off. You keep resorting to Ad Hominem against me because you can't refute my arguments that what you, and the HeadleyDown & his collection of sockpuppets are trying to insert into the page. Instead of discussing ME and my education,

how about you discuss THE SUBJECT OF THE PAGE... Either that, or you put your credentials on the table, and we can discuss those... are you up for that? For example, let's start with YOUR REAL NAME. Akulkis 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

So, Dave, what is it -- are you a traditional psychologist who is THREATENED by a superior form of psychology which makes the psychoanalysis method (with it's years-on-end of counseling sessions which are always "making progress" but never actually RESOLVE any clients problem)...or what... just what stake do YOU have in attempting to discredit a field of study which is nothing more than amassing verifiable observations, and putting them into a pile with a sign on top that reads "*these* methods are useful." -- Akulkis Dec 13 22:03:21 UTC 2005.

Akulkis/Aaron, you are ill-informed about science in general and psychology in particular. Freudian psychoanalysis is dead in both psychology and psychiatry in the English-speaking world and it has been so for many years. Since the 1960s clinical psychology has been dominated by the cognitive and behavioral therapies, neither of which are concerned with patient history and are typically delivered as several 45-minute sessions including progress tracking and follow-up. Academic and research psychology also has had little connection with Freudian psychoanalysis since the 1950s. Modern psychology is "Experimental Psychology" as advanced by Hans Eysenck and Cyril Burt. Freudian psychoanalysis has a stronger association with psychiatry and its heavy influence upon psychiatry continued until the late 1970s when advances were made in neurology and pharmacology. Since that time pscyhiatry has been moving towards a bilogical model of mental illness discarding its psychoanalytic roots. Most psychiatrists today have a biological orientation in the treatment of mental illness. Your concept of psychology and psychiatry is outdated by at least 30 years. NLP -- like all of the other fringe therapies of the era such Gestalt, Primal Scream, TA -- was a response to the "shrink culture" in the North America of the 1960s and 1970s. That is the context of Bandler's tired pun "Sickman Fraud" and his assuming of a german accented English when he talks about psychology and psychiatry in his early seminars. Unfortunately Bandler is stuck somewhere in the 1970s and even in his recent seminars he still talks as if Freudian psychoanalysis is the dominant model of mind within psychology and psychiatry. Uneducated people like you then pick up on this and repeat it as you are doing. Some of NLPs hypothesis are testable and those that have been tested have been found false and useless. That is the brutal truth you are vehemently opposing using anecdote. flavius 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You do have an interesting background Aaron. It is clear that you didn't learn properly the first time. This is an encyclopedia. If umpteen authorities state that NLP is a cult, then it is a significant fact. That is the case. Of course dianetics people refuse to admit to being a cult, and they will swear on their mothers that they are doing applied psychology. I am a neuroscientist by education, and I like to read science, but I also have an interest in the more fringe areas. I have studied NLP, from an anthropological and neurological perspective. NLP is a pseudoscientific psychocult according to scientists. If you don't like science, that is fine. Wikipedia does. I am also starting to take pity on you. I took a good look at the mindlist egroup last week, and all you have is the support of charlatan pseudoscientists. It is not a good perspective for a wikipedian. I noticed you stated that NLP has better methods of verification than science. You also use the "provocative therapy" method of addressing people using expletives and insults liberally. Of course you are simply using cult authority/provocation control. You are allowed to do this by the mediator, and he seems to encourage it. I noticed also that dissenters are booted. That does not happen here, it is an encyclopedia. If you want to make a contribution here, I suggest to take yourself completely out of that frame of thinking. According to the literature, and with corroboration from the actual NLP literature, NLP makes hypotheses and extraordinary claims, these claims were tested and failed according to science, and NLPers did not move on. They continue to claim that NLP is far more powerful or way ahead of science. Science has moved on and NLP has been relegated since the 80s. Only the cult aspects of NLP keep it going. Pseudoscience in business studies, therapy and other such popular misconceptions allow NLP promoters to sell their psychotechnology. Dianetics operates in the same way. The most popular NLP version is TRobbins LGAT seminars and lots of chanting and cheering. I cannot change what scientists report, and I cannot change the fact that NLP is a self help development in the same mould as dianetics. It's a fact. DaveRight 04:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I find it amazing that the majority of authorities who come out against NLP are those who are threatened directly with financial loss by widespread understanding of methods which eliminated the need for YEARS of weekly, ineffective, $150/hour counseling. And now, you admit that you, too, are in a group that is threatened financially by the spread of NLP. And a lot of others whose authority would be incredibly damaged if the psych departments at most universities were exposed as charghing thousands upon thousands of dollars for "knowledge" which is mostly ineffectual, if not harmful. Loss of prestige is a very powerful motivator to disparage a competing line of study, especially if the originators of that path of study weren't even in your own profession, but instead, a couple of LINGUISTS. Thanks for admitting that my hunch about you was correct.

Akulkis\Aaron, you are becoming feverish with fanaticism and fervour. You've spent a few paragraphs emphatically asserting that NLP has nothing to do with Dianetics and Scientology yet you are now drawing on a line of argument that originated from within the CoS. This condemnation of "psychs" executed recently with drama by Tom Cruise on TV is "old hat". It is standard CoS propaganda. It is ironic that you are telling us how NLP is not related -- in any way -- to Scientology yet you are using standard anti-"psych" CoS propaganada. Also, Grinder is the linguist, Bandler studied philosophy and psychology. Also, Levelt is a pre-eminent linguist, he is huge in the field of linguistics and he wrote a devastating critique of NLP. You keep asserting that NLP is effective and superior to everything else yet you present no evidence to substantiate your claim. If NLP is as effective as you claim it is then why are you having so much difficulty (a) communicating you point clearly; and (b) persuading us that your view is the correct one? Is this also not ironic ? flavius 05:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, Eric Berne, who was IN THE PROFESSION made the same charges in 1948 in his book, The Games People Play. Just because some people are nuts doesnt' make EVERYTHING they say a lie. In fact, selected truths are used in all elaborate deceptions. The Nazi's based their propaganda on various well-known and accepted truths concerning the Treaty of Versaille, and social turmoil in Europe. All "big lies" are built on a foundation of truth, so it's not surprising that the CoS would make truthful statements about the ineffectiveness of the psych profession as a lure. The fact that you are unaware of the propensity of elaborate lies to be built upon truths reflects badly on your education and understanding of history. And might I remind you of the well-known observation that "even a stopped clock is correct twice each day." Akulkis

Aaron, that doesn't answer my concern and it's a question begging response, ie. you have assumed what you need to demonstrate in order to substantiate your assertion. You need to use your vaunted persuasion skills and superior intellect to demonstrate that (actual rather than some simulacra of your own invention) pscyhology and psychiatry are flawed theoretically and/or ineffective. You have not done this, you have taken for granted that which you need to demonstrate for your argument to be valid. You don't actually engage with anyones arguments you invent your own simulacra and engage with those with a bizarre complacency. I didn't state that everything the CoS says is a lie and that matter is irrelevant to my point. In common with the CoS you are condemning "psychs" without any evidence for their institutionalised malevolence, without any evidence for the complete ineffectivness of psychology and psychiatry (which would be easy to find if it were true because you claim is universal) and without any evidence for the effectiveness and superiority of the methods and theories you are proposing as replacements. You are offering nothing more than hollow rhetoric. Your personal experiences do not count as evidence for the effectiveness of NLP -- you don't seem to understand this. If I realise that I scored >90% on all those exams that I undertook whilst wearing my blue Blazer T-shirt have I discovered that blue Blazer T-shirts cause exam results greater than 90%. According to the "logic" you have presented regarding your testing of NLP I would have to answer "Yes!". Clearly this is junk logic, if you can't comprehend the graveness of this error then perhaps it would be best to ignore you. flavius 14:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It explains fully now, your interest in this that you are so keen to muddy the waters by the tactic of including blatant lies about NLP on the Wikipedia page. ANYBODY can test NLP for themselves. There is ZERO equipment to buy, and the basics can be learned off the internet (which is precisely how I did it). I not only have used NLP successfully (even getting job offers for postions I was unqualified for -- not to get the job, which would get me fired, but JUST TO SEE IF, using ***ONLY*** hypnosis and anchoring, to see if I could get a job offer, even though I also made it clear that I was unqualified for the position). I've also been on the recieving end of wide range of NLP methodologies -- US Army basic training. We're talking about the most successful fighting organization on the entire planet. IF NLP doesn't work, then an NLP-drenched basic training program should be producing poorly trained, unmotivated recruits. In fact, when I completed Basic Training in 1990, having entered as a laid-back, skitterish, borderline hippie, I emerged as an extremely confident young man whose newly developed courage could overcome nearly any fear (even those which I was not desensitised to at Fort Jackson) and was practically itching for a war to start, just to have the satisfaction of being able to do what I was trained to do. That doesn't happen by accident, and I can write endlessly about the various NLP-derived methods which were used to accomplish this transformation not only on myself, but over 95% of the other men (from split-training high-school students up to college graduates such as myself). NLP is not "pseudoscience to scientists"...it is pseudoscience to SOME scientists.... just like global warming is pseudoscience to SOME scientists. Until you start disproving results achieved with NLP.....ALL of them, then your charge of pseudoscience is without merit.... and, hey, Dave, I am QUITE familiar with the scientific method, and how to apply it ... because not only do I do it for a living -- but, working in the auto industry, MILLIONS of lives can be affected by the evaluations I make of the tests which I conduct. So stop with your holier than thou shit, and admit that your primary prejudice here is financially motivated, and that what really has your undies in a bunch is your FEAR of reduced income and/or professional prestige, if something SO obvious had been missed for so long by those whose entier life has been studying the mind (mostly due to blindly pursuing the goofy theories of an Austrian coke-head).

Just because YOU are a neuroscientist does NOT invalidate my own personal tests and observations of the use and effectiveness of NLP methods....NOR ANYONE ELSE's. That is the truly beautiful thing about NLP -- ANYBODY can test it. The barrier to entry is almost zero (as opposed to my professional field of computer systems engineering, with all of the electrical engineering needed to be truly competant in the field). [User:Akulkis|Akulkis]] Thu Dec 15 05:12:50 UTC 2005

Akulkis, so NLP made you the a**ehole that you are today? You're a great endoresement. How do you know that your NLP legerdemain got you the job offer -- that is what you need to demonstrate. Do you install video cards and hard-disks in people's computer's? flavius 07:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, I can design all the way down to the transistor level if I need to. Your pathetic suggestion Playing Legos with PCI and AGP cards in motherboard slots is a test of competance would be laughable if not for the fact that you're actually serious.. I was was programming Unix systems when 16 MHz was considered fast, 16 MB of main memory was not only considered huge but cost $150,000, and a 750 MB in a disk drive that was smaller than a washing machine was still a novelty.....and this was a REPLACEMENT for our 1MHz, 1MB Dual-VAX 11/780 (hand-wire-wrapped backplanes). But enough about me....so far, all we know about your education is that you consistantly display faulty logic, but ONLY when doing so is beneficial to your anti-NLP POV. 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, I"m only an asshole towards pathological liars such as your and your little cabal here. Akulkis

No, you are an asshole that runs off at the mouth/keyboard. You appear to have promoted your subjective experiences to the status of "reality" and you expect others to participate in your subjective experience as if were something they shared with you. When you are presented with report that doesn't concur with your subjective experience you accuse the reporter of lying. You are absolutely convinced that your subjective experience represents the world as it is. Even from within an NLP perspective your position is untenable. In general semantic terms you are in effect declaring that your map is the territory. If I report that in my experience NLP techniques don't work on what grounds do you reject my subjective experience. By what means do you privilege your subjectivity over mine? Your position is nonsensical within both a realist and antirealist framework. Your position is incomprehensible whichever way you slice it. That is why I characterise your posts as nothing more than bluster and blather. You are noisy and voluble but at bottom all you are doing is giving written form to your emoting. flavius 15:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

More ad hominem attack in lieu of substantive argument against my comments on the various lies which you and your cohorts have been repeatedly editing back into this page. Don't worry, Flavius, like all assholes.

I do not think that AKulkis edits were accurate. Engram and enneagram have nothing in common except for being similar words. Given that we have been unable to come to agreement on this after negotiation, and mediation; are you willing to present your case to arbitration? --Comaze 01:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

However, they DID call attention to the fact that Camridge, DaveRight, and the sockpuppets have all been deliberately sowing confusion and false association between NLP and actual cults through the exploitation of an unfortunate coincidence -- Akulkis Dec 13 22:03:21 UTC 2005.

whoever heard of Drinth and Sinclair?

Who references them??? NOBODY!

When you have authors who NOBODY refers to, then their writings are fringe at best, and not representative of NLP thought and theory. Akulkis Wed Dec 14 17:01:41 UTC 2005

AKulkis. There are many NLPers that use the term engram and Sinclair is only one of them, and all NLPers use the concept. Look up engram in a good neuroscience book. You will notice that NLPers use the concept throughout the literature. Drenth is a professor of psychology and organizational studies. He is an expert on the subject and he is a scientist. His view carries a great deal of weight. NLP is fringe, and science is not. Science gets the weight in wikipedia, especially over pseudoscience. DaveRight 04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Many apparently being defined in DaveWrong world as "a number that can be counted using only the fingers on one hand." But as used by the vast majority of other English speakers, over hundreds of years, the word "many" means "a large, or very large number of." One, or possibly two authors who are on the extreme periphery of NLP does NOT count as "many NLPers" Akulkis

Comaze, stop with the backtracking. Your attempt to constantly vex editors by making multiple unreasobable requests is quite clearly a nuisance. Camridge 02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis. Actually I think we could explain a little, as you were not part of the mediated discussion on engrams beforehand. Engrams are central to NLP. Realise that wikipedia uses science as a priority over pseudoscience. Engram is the most accurate term to describe what NLPers are talking about whenever they mention the "neuro" of NLP. It involves the neural paths of the senses, and of the engram traces in neurology. But that is just the explanation aspect. The fact is, this is corroborated by the use of the engram term by NLP theorists for example, Sinclair, and Hollander. There are not many self admitting theorists in NLP, but those who do talk neurology theory refer to engrams directly according to book refs, article refs, and links. Again, as science is priority and adds a great deal of clarity here, it can only be a benefit to the article. Google searches come up with the term engram and NLP, in all european languages. I suggest you use Google in a more world/encyclopedic way. I understand you are an NLP fan and proponents tend to stick to their own view within the deliberately confusing field of NLP. Wikipedia must take into account all views, but with science over pseudoscience. This is even more important with the obscurantist subject of NLP. The article is moving forward well, becoming more concise and clear, and it is possible to add further facts within reason. But those must be verified facts (adding your own conjecture over scientists confusing engram with enneagram is not a fact, it is just your point of view). Camridge 02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Apparently, camridge believes that I am completely unable to read the archived discussions.

2 By whe way, Camridge, since when did the NLP'ers declare themselves to be part of the NEUROSCIENCE community, and announce that they were using neuroscience terminology, but with Dianetics meanings and connotations? Oh that's right...NEVER!

The only person who you're fooling is yourself. Now quite behaving like a disengenious scoundrel. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 05:12:50 UTC 2005

Hello Akulkis. Dilts makes claims to neuroscience, as do many other NLPers. I believe you have read some of the archives, but decided to ignore any factual verification. Engrams are a central aspect of neuroscience and NLP makes explicit and implicit use of the concept throughout NLP. And yes, they do it very pseudoscientifically according to the facts presented and authorities who get priority weighting (scientists). I really like the term scoundrel. Its probably not allowed on wikipedia discussion though. I don't persobally find you threatening or even vaguely offensive. I do see that you have some confusion over the nature of wikipedia and scientific verification. Take a look at the NPOV article on wikipedia. Camridge 06:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

And Dilts uses the term engram WHERE, exactly? And furthermore, Dilts uses the term engram WITH DIANETICS CONNOTATIONS ****WHERE****, exactly? NEUTRAL point of view does NOT mean filling up an entry with your own prejudices, and hair-brained, illogical connections which are supported by ZERO EVIDENCE other than a couple of obscure fringe goofballs who NOBODY references other than propagandists such as yourself.

Failure to provide a reference for Dilts using the term engram is duly noted Akulkis.

Camridge, look, "engrams" comes with a LOT of negative-"guilt-by-association"-baggage. If you want to write about the term "engrams", then feel free to do so in the APPROPRIATE place...which would be an entry on Dianetics. NOBODY in the NLP community uses the term engram, so what gives YOU the right to import terminology which has not other purpose than to misinform, confuse, and propagandize the reader?

Really Akulkis, NLP is a pseudoscience and it is not my doing. They saw the success of other pseudos such as dianetics, and followed suit. Dianetics is pseudoscientific and so is NLP. Many people use the term. I realise you may be using the more US terms, but take a world view, and you will find that Europeans/Asians, and Slavonics are far more comfortable and keen to promote neuroscientific terms such as engrams in NLP than you. Of course in the US the cult of NLP will definitely be more keen to dissociate from the cult of dianetics. They are still trying to sell their notions as a kind of science of business communication. That could do with more clarification and it will end up in the article sometime. Camridge 06:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

And yet, when I test it...IT WORKS. The 1990-91 war with Iraq was also a test of it -- because just prior to that is when the majority of recruits were being trained usind methods that were DELIBERATELY developed out of NLP. A raw, not-battle-tested army whipped a seasoned, battle tested army in a matter of days. And note that those battle-tested veteran enemy soldiers had survived the first (and only) chemical warfare war since WW1. Any general will tell you that good equipment only goes so far...and that inferior equipment in the hands of soldiers with superior training will win far more often than not. Akulkis

Engram is a neutral science term, and it is actually the most persistent research stream in neuroscience. NLP uses it in a pseudoscientific way though. DaveRight 04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveWrong, if you insist that Engram is a neutral science term, then the reason which you and Camridge INSIST on including it with the same sentance with Dianetics is for WHAT REASON, EXACTLY? HMMM?? You've already admitted that your professional credibility and/or financial situation is threatened by widespread knowledge of NLP.

NLP is fringe and relies only on anecdote and pseudoscientific pretence for promotion. Those have consistently been promoted by NLP promoters/sellers on the article. Wikispam is not allowed. A Wikipeidan should take a scientific stance over psuedoscience according to NPOV policy. Science is independent and neutral, and is under no threat by NLP. The effort here is towards clarity, and NLP has been consistently classed with dianetics as a dubious pseudoscientific therapy/method. That is a clarifying fact and helps the article. It is a perfectly neutral fact. Camridge 07:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, the fact is, when used by people who both study NLP techniques AND make an effort to actually get results WILL GET THE DESIRED RESULTS. I can sabotage any number of tests in an effort to "disprove" and slander a field of study which threatens my own. But that wouldn't prove a damn thing now, would it. Any psych researcher who fails to get demonstrated results using NLP is DELIBERATELY FAILING....because the only way the NLP techniques even get incorporated into the "bag of tricks" is by first VERIFYING THAT THE WORK IN THE FIRS PLACE. This is completley OPPOSITE of the mainstream psych community, in which grad students are encouraged to buy into one school of thought or another about how the mind works, and then spend the rest of their careers trying to prove that THEIR school of thought on psych is the one true version.... (and of course, do selective omissions of data, both supporting other ideas, and

that which doesn't support their own, so as to maintain their quasi-religious belief in Rolfism, Jungism, or whatever other sort of psychobabble-ism they bought into before they were really exposed to ANY data or evidence on which to make such a decision). -- More of Aaron's bluster.

"Any psych researcher who fails to get demonstrated results using NLP is DELIBERATELY FAILING....because the only way the NLP techniques even get incorporated into the "bag of tricks" is by first VERIFYING THAT THE WORK IN THE FIRS PLACE." This statement is foaming at the mouth and should be put down. You failed to consider that the psychologist's (scientific) notion of an emprical test (well-sampled, single-blind, placebo controlled, statistical testing) is fundamentally different from the NLPers (psuedoscientific) notion of emprirical test (sample size=1, no placebo control, no statistical analysis of results). You have no idea about modern psychology, absolutely none. Do you have any evidence that university psychology departments encourage students to "buy into one school of though or another about how the mind works"? There are no such grand theories in modern experimental psychology. This is more fantasy. flavius 06:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me if the truth offends you. Anything which contradicts the opinions of a "true believer" such as yourself is going to sound like "foaming at the mouth." As for psychologists ... most of them couldn't conduct a proper scientific experiment if their lives depended on it. Their papers are far below the standards of experimentalists -- for example, discussions of possible sources of error, and exactly how those sources of error would effect the results (from minor effect to extremely misleading) are rarely part of the experimental writeups in the field of psychology. And to rig a test against NLP, all it requires is that those subjects the NLP methods me improperly trained...and VOILA!, you can publish your paper saying "NLP doesn't work." The mainstream psych commmunity has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Anybody with a clue can see that, because developments of methods

from some LINGUISTS immediately invokes the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, plus the widespread embarassment that results when people outside of the field are producing more significant results than those who have been in it for a lifetime. A friend of mine, Dan Judd, was studying for his PhD in CS at Michigan State University, and in a class on Genetic Algorithms, solved several problems which both the professor, and the text books authors claimed were difficult, and so-far unsolved problems. For solving these problems...was he held in high regard?? HELL NO. He wasn't in the artificial intelligence (AI) community, and for solving one of their problems, which they had failed to solve, they treated him with disdain -- HOW DARE YOU upstage us in our own field of endeavor?!?!!?" Something VERY similar is at work with regards to NLP and the mainstream psych professions.

By the way, Camridge, what exactly is YOUR interest in polluting this page with nonsensical, and guilt-by-association links to Dianetics and other rediculous nonsense WHICH YOU KNOW DAMN WELL has nothing to do with NLP (all of your pathetic, and childish eeping and hand-waving nonsense aside)? What axe are you trying to grind here? And don't you DARE reply that you're just interested in the truth, because your prior edits and arguments here have already demonstrated that academic honesty and truth have NOTHING to do with your behavior, and are merely a (pathetically transparent) rationalization for your various slanders. If NLP comes to be widely understood by the general public....what is it that YOU will lose? Akulkis Thu Dec 15 10:39:45 UTC 2005

Ok. Here's a comprimise, diffs. I've renamed the section from "Engrams" to "Neuro in NLP". I propose that we rewrite that section describing the different explaination of the "Neuro in NLP". I think this would settle alot of the problems. I've added a short paragraph about TOTES. There are other explainations offered by scientists, linguists, etc. --Comaze 05:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, you are placing pseudoscience above science again. Science takes priority. Neuroscience does not include TOTE and TOTE is not used to explain nerve circuits. TOTE etc can briefly be included in the modeling section. Camridge 05:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge...in the name of SCIENCE, please present us with evidence of "engram" being used by the creators of NLP and/or the main body of authoritative authors on the subject. Fringe writers who use terminology which is at odds with the rest of the community is NOT good research, but it is good propaganda for those who have an axe to grind. Now.... quit acting like a partisan jackass. Akulkis Wed Dec 14 17:01:41 UTC 2005

Akulkis, many NLPers, including Dilts, Grinder and others refer to Hebb's rule when explaining various aspects of VK VAK notations and rituals etc, as has also been provided in diagrams on the article. In psychology and in neuroscience, the Hebb rule refers only to engrams. Hebb only ever dealt with engrams, and only mentioned his theory in relation to engrams. As VoiceofAll has stated, this has been dealt with ad nausium more than three times, with abundant evidence presented in the archives. You seem to be denying it simply because it is not on the present discusion page. That was also a strategy of the other NLP promoters. You seem to be presenting a particularly unconvincing claim to neutrality. Camridge 06:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Camridge, NOBODY in the NLP community uses the term engram, other than one lone writer who refers to or otherwise pays any attention to. And yet, you persist to push this LIE. Why is that, exactly? Akulkis 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

AKulkis. You are using the erroneous objection that only Bandler/Grinder/Dilts and other developers are the only primary sources allowable. Primary source does not mean NLP developer, it means any literature that is not second hand opinion. Also, your view of fringe has much to be desired. NLPers views are fringe at best, and your opinion is not relevant to the article. NLP is a deliberately confusing pseudoscientific subject that needs science in order to clarify it. Your attacks and objections are relevant to discussion, and so far they have supported the fact that NLP is a cult. You offer nothing but restricted views and pseudoscientific excuses. DaveRight 04:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You are violating wikipedia policy by selectively using references that only to support your argument. Drenth and Sinclair do not have enough citations to warrant inclusion in the article, except in a minor way (maybe one statement). Grinder, Dilts, Bandler, O'Connor have 100 times the number of citations. Do a quick check on Google scholar. Structure Vol.1 (1975) is by far the most cited followed by Frogs (1979). This same logic can be used to exclude alot of your of minority views. I think you are diliberately trying to provide confusions in the article -- let's present both cases to arbitration so we can sort this out. --Comaze 04:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis and Comaze. Refer to our mediator, VoiceOFAll's comment that this has been resolved through mediation several times over. You may support the cult of NLP but you will never be able to censor verified fact. Camridge 07:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Again with the slurs in place of substantial argument. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 10:24:08 UTC 2005

By the way, Camridge, why is it that most of YOUR "facts" about NLP = dianetics turn out to be not only unverified, but products of nothing other than your and HeadleyDowns' imaginations???? Akulkis 12:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Notice to 68.79.99.71

Please cease and desist from your surreptitious edits.

The addition of your take on the philsopsophy of science to the 'Atheoretical Pretence' section was embarassing. The subsection already stated that science routinely offers laws and models in the absence of explanatory theory and the classical example of Newton's Law was offered. Did you miss this before you added your contribution? You missed the central point of the subsection. Theoretical physicists don't engage in free speculation, their models are evaluated with respect to predictive capacity and/or explanatory capacity. A theoretical physicists models are empirically tested and/or tested to determine if they yield more or better explanations. This is a basic tenet of Fictionalist epistemology. NLP models are neither subject to empirical test and they aren't offered as possessing superior explanatory power over existing models. There is no parallel between the free speculation engaged in by Bandler and Grinder and the activitites of theoretical physicist. Mentioning Feynman is more NLPesque sophistry as per mentioning Einstein, Tesla etc. That sort of garabge won't fool anyone here. It does nothing for the NLP case. If you have a genuine concern about this matter read-on, else note that I reverted your edits because they were junk (detailed explanation follows).

The structure of the argument presented in 'Atheoretical Pretence' is not merely to assert that fictionalism is false. Rather, NLPs fidelity to fictionalism is questioned and the absence of a defence of fictionalism prior to its use is noted. Most physical scientists are epistemologically classified as "Scientific Realists", even theoretical physicists. Fictionalism is not a widespread epistemological basis of method of any established discipline even economics where it had an influential advocate in Milton Friedman. NLP is predicated on fictionalism -- nay a bastardised version of the theory. Even according to Vaihinger (which B&G quote from liberally) the fruits of any 'As If' based inquiry are to be subjected to empirical test. NLP is ostensibly concerned with "what works", hence its fictionalist inquiry must be justified with emprical testing of its findings else its findings are not the product of method but of free speculation. When B&G proposed the "Fast Phobia Cure" which followed a series of "As If" proposals concerning neurology, language, cognition etc. we are nevertheless left with a proposed therapeutic technique that can and should be tested as per other psyhcotherapies. We must test the proposed technique to determine if it is more effective than placebo, and we have established means of undertaking such tests. A fictionalist form of inquiry does not alter the universe such that nonspecific factors in psychotherapy cease to exist or be relevant. NLP undertakes no rigorous empirical test of the claims derived from 'As If' based inquiry. Hence, it pays lip-service only to fictionalism. Economists and theoretical physicists with fictionalist leanings subject their models to stringent testing. Fictionalist economists require predictive power. Theoretical physicists require either predictive power and/or explanatory power. Both the fictionalist economist and physicist employ rigorous empirical tests that are designed to ensure that their results are not due to chance, artifacts of the method of inquiry or other extraneous factors. The NLPer exercises no such discipline. Nonspecific factors in therapuetic intervention are conveniently ignored, the peculiar natural history of specific mental illness is ignored, follow-up is ignored, pre-therapeutic disease states are not objectively determined and neither are therapeutic outcomes. There is only ritual followed by subjective report of well-being.

Thus there is no parallel -- absolutely none -- between the method of inquiry prescribed by some theoretical physicists and the activities of B&G that produced NLP. On this basis I have deleted your edits. flavius 02:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, you'll need to find some references for your claims about fictionalism. It appears to be original research. --Comaze 06:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I have, there's a list of them in the article. You'll have to explain how it constitutes original research. The comments regarding fictionalism are not mine they are paraphrased from the cited authors. flavius 08:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, as pointed out by someone else about 2-3 months ago, you are once again one of those confusing theory with technique. Engineering is a science. Architecture is an art. But architecture USES Engineering. Similarly, counseling can USE NLP. But a counseling method is no more NLP than architecture is engineering. Learn to distinquish between the INVESTIGATION of something, and the ART of using the knowledge which springs forth from investigation. They are NOT the same. Akulkis Wed Dec 14 17:47:52 UTC 2005

No so. I appreciate the distinction NLP modelling and NLP applications. The distinction doesn't help you, it doesn't magically erase the need for empirical test, make existing emprical tests invalid or irrelevant nor does it make any meta-theoretic critique misplaced. Both NLP modelling and NLP applications are laden with theory and they both have generated hypothesis many of which can be (and have been tested). There is no confusion in my head between theory and technique, judging from your remarks any confusion belongs to you. Engineering is not a science it is applied science, engineering uses science. Chemical engineering is based on chemistry and physics, electrical engineering is based largely on physics, civil engineering is also based largely on physics. Architecture is not an art, it is a design discipline that draws on art and engineering (structural, civil, materials). Yes, counselling can use NLP i.e. NLP application, as can sales, teaching, coaching etc. Where exactly did I suggest or imply otherwise. I'm the one that added Grinder's distinction between NLP applications and NLP modelling in the article. I also contributed the foundational assumptions -- which relate to NLP modelling -- section. Rather than offer me advice about what I need to learn why don't you read more closely? My concern with fictionalism relates to NLP modelling or "INVESTIGATION" as you put it. My remarks concerning empirical testing above are with reference to NLP applications or the "ART" as you put it. The article itself is cognizant of this distinction. The empirical studies cited in the article discredit various NLP applications. It would be sufficinet merely by demonstrating the ineffectiveness of NLP applications to demonstrate that NLP modelling (the source of these applications or patterns) is also ineffective. This would be a form of "black-box" inquiry. However, the article is making steps towards including research that demonstrates the ineffectiveness of the NLP modelling itself. flavius 06:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

flavius, I don't understand how you made the leap of logic from Batesonian Cybernetic epistemology to fictionalism. --Comaze 11:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Tosey and Mathison, in agreement with Craft, theoretically position NLP as social constructivist. Vygotsky was a social constructivist par excellence. However, social constructivism is a broad theoretical position, specifying general premises about the nature of reality (an artifact of human activity), knowledge (made not discovered) and learning (a social process). The specifics of reality, knowledge and learning -- as they are conceived within a social constructivist framework -- are supplied by other ontological, epistemological, metaphysical and psychological theories. This is why Tosey and Mathison allude to the instrumentalist epistemology evident in NLP. Instrumentalism is consistent with a social constructivist framework. Fictionalism can be undertood as a type of instrumentalism. Instrumentalism is agnostic about unobservables, theory is assessed purely with reference to its explanatory and/or predictive power, there is no claim about the truth. Fictionalism shares instrumentalism's disposition towards theory but also contends that unobservables are non-existent, that they are fictions. NLPs underlying epistemology is fictionalist. I have supplied numerous quotes that demonstrate this. There is no "Cybernetic Epistemology" in the early NLP texts, there is only fictionalism quoted directly from Vaihinger. Cybernetic epistemology isn't a widely recognised epistemological theory or method of inquiry. It's a post-modernist pastiche that incorporates representationalism and numerous post-modern paradoxes that post-modernists revel in. Like Korzybski's General Semantics it is fundamentally a type of representationalism. So in answer to your question I made no such leap. Tosey and Mathison mention cybernetic epistemology but describe only instrumentalism. No leap is required to demonstrate that NLP is fictionalist, no argument is even needed. You need only read the first chapter of Magic I. I hope I've answered your question. flavius 06:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

AKulkis. NLP developers make wild claims and hypothesese. These are tested and turn out to be false according to independent scientific empiricism. Yet NLPers still claim that they work. NLP is a pseudoscience. Your confusion and claim to engineering are both pseudoscientific ploys to attach importance to NLP nonsense. NLP is pseudo in theory (yes they do theorize and hypothesize, though they claim they don't), it is ineffective according to tests, and it is pseudo in excuses. Your excuses are those of a committed pseudoscientist. DaveRight 04:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Lots of people in various professions make wild claims and hypothesese. The medical profession for one. Therefore, Dave, you are arguing that the existance of quacks invalidates medical science. Sorry, but I"m not willing to dismiss medical science just because there are quacks among them. And, so far, you have not indicated that you are, either. Therefore, Dave, stop being a hypocrite. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 05:12:50 UTC 2005

Akulkis. That's a strange reading of DaveRight's argument. The point is plain: NLP is invalidated not by the existence of quacks but because of its failure to meet the rigours of empirical testing. When NLPs hypotheses have been subject to scientific scrutiny that have been found to be false. flavius 06:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Then how do you explain the EXCELLANT results which the US Army gets by using techniques which are talked about in NLP literature? If it's a bunch of hogwash, then the TRADOC's results should be in shambles. Instead, we have the most successful, motivated force on the planet. Hell, you even see soldiers who lost one or both legs not only driving successfully through physical rehab -- but volountarily and EAGERLY GOING BACK INTO THE FIGHT IN IRAQ WITH ARTIFICIAL LEGS. How in the world can you argue against THOSE results -- because I sure as hell don't see ANY civilian employer getting such motivation out of their employees -- especially severely injured employees who qualify for significant disability compensation. You CLAIM that there are no results. I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation, rather than subscribing to what is essentially a religious belief such as you are Akulkis Thu Dec 15 08:50:36 UTC 2005

I don't comprehend the significance of your apparently random capitalisation. When you randomnly capitalise and mis-spell you come across as unhinged. I don't need to explain your claim anymore than I need to explain the existence of gnomes. The use of NLP in the US Army is a figment of your imagination or the imagination of one of your NLP mentors. The US Army conducted extensive research into a range of human performance technologies that may be of use to the army. NLP was included in the investigation. The researchers even interviewed Bandler. The US Army unequivocally rejected NLP on the grounds that there is no evidence that it works. Refer Druckman, D. & Swets, J. (1988). Enhancing Human Performance. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. and Swets, J. & Bjork R. (1990) Enhancing human performance. An evaluation of "new age" techniques considered by the U.S. Army. Psychological Science, 1,, 85-96. The apparent efficacy of NLP techniques on stage, in seminars and in some clinical situations is explained by a "psycho shaman effect" proposed by Tye (1994): "the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already-existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically, it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma". It is you that is exhibiting religious fervour. There is no evidence that NLP works yet you fervently announce your faith. "I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation", you say. Well this isn't an argument it's an assertion, it's a verbalisation of your emoting. What are we to do with it? If the "proof is evident" then why is it that NLP has failed most empirical testing it has been subjected to? Are you suggesting that Sharpley (1997), Swets & Bjork (1990), Dixon et al (1986), Baddeley (1989), Ellich et al (1985) and Melvin & Miller (1988) would have obtained confirmatory results if only they were more "open"? How so? One of the weaknesses of human reasoning is that it is vulnerable to a confirmation bias (Gilovich, 1993): you will look for and overvalue what confirms your beliefs and simultaneously ignore and undervalue anything that contradicts those beliefs. You can't prove that all swans are white simply by seeking white swans. You must instead seek black swans. Are you then looking only for the white swans of NLP? Confirmation is not the basis of knowledge acquisition, falsification is. If I find 100 smokers that are older than 80 years have I demonstrated that smoking will enable you to live beyond the average life expectancy? Your logic would suggest so. flavius 11:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, since you're unable to understand the concept of using capitalization for EMPHASIS, I guess it's not surprising that NLP is "pseudoscience" to you. And, by the way, typo-flames went out in the 1970's. Sharpley, Swets & Bjork, Dixon et al, Baddely, Ellech et all, and Melvin & Miller have all dedicated their careers to other schools of thought about how the mind works. Therefore, for any of them publishing a paper which essentially says, "Hey, I was full of shit, and everything I've been supporting for years pales in comparison to this" is tantamount to academic suicide, massive loss of professional and social prestige, and quite possible, severe curtailment of research funds and other monies from the sources of funds whom they are used to dealing with. Thus, there is VERY strong motivation for all of them to merely "go through the motions," of conducting and experiment, while subtly sandbagging NLP.

This is an interesting conspiracy theory that complements well your fruitcake conception of evidence and your faith in NLP. If scientific opinion is as entrenched as you believe it is then how do you explain progress in science where models and theories are discarded in favor of those have demonstrated greater predictive or explanatory power? Your nutty worldview must at least account for the present state of affairs. flavius 02:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, instead of relying on "experts" who have an axe to grind, have YOU ever conducted a test of anchoring, and what result did you get? Akulkis Thu Dec 15 19:07:51 UTC 2005

This is typical pseudoscience blather. If I tell you that I did personally experiment with anchoring and found that it didn't work as promised you will retort that I didn't run the pattern correctly. The only acceptable answer to you would be anchoring works. You are proposing an unfalsifiable proposition, their is no way for you be possibly wrong (in your warped private universe): either anchoring works or the person testing it hasn't mastered the technique. We've heard it all before and we can hear it also from Scientologists, Freudian psychoanalysts, psychics, channelers, Reiki healers etc. flavius 02:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis. The only empirical evidence we have is that the US army ditched NLP as a concept many years ago (in the 80s). The article already shows that the director of that research states that lots of evidence shows that it does not work. We work with facts here, not the hearsay of pseudoscientists. Camridge 09:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

And yet, the techniques are STILL BEING USED by the drill sergeants. I know this, because I know some drill sergeants, and specifically asked them about it less than 5 years ago. You're making shit up again, Camridge. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 10:24:08 UTC 2005

You're making a fool of yourself. You are presenting hearsay evidence, it's no good in court and it's no good here. Worse yet, your hearsay amounts to an argument from authority ("a drill sergeant said so therefore it must be true"). Before accusing Camridge of "making shit up" why don't you read Swets & Bjork (1990) or Druckmand & Swets (1988) the latter is online. We'll assume that "some drill sergeants" do use NLP, what would be the significance of this discovery? If we look hard enough we will find drill sergeants that use Scientology, Magick, Santeria and Voodoo. John Travolta and Tom Cruise claim that they use Scientology in their professional and private lives. Does this mean that because Travolta and Cruise are successful actors Scientology works and that their success is attributable to Scientology. Even if the drill sergeants you allegedly spoke to were highly effective, the connection between their success and their use of NLP has not been demonstrated. At best the connection is speculative. You are again making a faith-based declaration. Your concept of evidence, causality and correlation is aberrant. flavius 11:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Look, moron, i'm IN the damned army, and direct testimony from primary participants is NOT hearsay evidence. Deny all you want, but regardless of what someone in an office far removed from the training grounds tells you, drill sergeants learn from other drill sergeants. For example, a great many techniques are used for inducing trance. Marksmanship training is drenched with NLP training methods. So is the bayonette drill, used to anchor an extremely aggressive state to the act of mounting a bayonette on a rifle. Even rations are anchored. Those who went to basic training before the introduction of the MRE are not wild about it, prefering the inferior C-ration. Soldiers routinely comment that, in the field, they enjoy food which, in civilian settings, they can't stand. This is direct evidence of anchoring satisfaction with food to the conditions of presentation of rations in the field (both MRE's and hot meals delivered in mermites). Regardless of whether TRADOC has officially removed NLP methodology, NLP-precepts ARE still being used by the drill sergeants. And that's what really matters. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 19:07:51 UTC 2005

So what if you're in the army? What you are presenting remains hearsay. In any event what you are describing is classical or Pavlovian conditioning not NLP. Just because NLP has taken an idea from behaviorist psychology and renamed it "anchoring" doesn't make it an NLP technique. Your concept of evidence is to be blunt, "f***ed". What chain of reasoning took you from soldiers routinely commenting that they enjoy food in the field that they normally wouldn't consume to the proposition that there is a form of anchoring in effect? You're full of bluster but not much else. flavius 02:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis, I have no evidence that says NLP is used in TRADOC. I search their web site and there are no results. It would be great to have a source for that. I do have evidence that NLP is used by CIA interviews and in US state police forces. I cannot confirm this yet but I think Al Gore and a bunch of senior US army generals were training in NLP by John Alexander 1983. There was a paper written in the late 80s that recommended against using NLP in the US army because it was not emirically tested, I'm sure one of the other editors will remind you of the year and authors. It is interested that NLP co-founder John Grinder was a captain in the US special forces before he did his PhD in linguistics. On a similar topic of law enforcement have you heard of the Booklyn Program pdf; Neuro-linguistic programming is also used in USA correctional facilities --Comaze 10:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

All one has to to is talk to drill sergeants about their training methods, and it soon becomes apparent that it is rife with NLP methods, REGARDLESS of what some officer sitting in Washington DC says is a foundational theory of what is being used or not. I'm talking about what IS being used, not the party line. Hell the use of uniforms and other appearance standards is both for rapport (look at the friction between "normal" police/soldier leaders, and those who are undercover officers or special forces, and their "rag bag" appearance), and as a form of anchoring...there are so many anchors in a soldier's uniform that it's rediculous. Similarly, there are other anchors attached to unit mottos, crests, badges, unit patches, etc. All of that symbolism HAS A PURPOSE, which, regardless of whether TRADOC says they are using it or not...THEY ARE IN FACT using the benefits of anchors tied to symbols. This isn't just within TRADOC's areas, this is rife throughout all of the American military. This is immediately observable when visiting ANY military installation in the United States. -- [User:Akulkis|Akulkis]] Thu Dec 15 23:25:08 UTC 2005

Akulkis, you need less bluster and more thought when you write it will improve the quality of your contributions or at the least your spelling. So what you are suggesting is that prior to the invention of NLP by Bandit and Grifter in the 1970s military culture was incomprehensible, it was a complete mystery until B&G renamed Pavlovian conditioning "anchoring" and proposed numerous methods of gaining interpersonal rapport derived by observing Satir and Erickson? Are you claiming that the concepts of anchoring and rapport explain the main features of military culture? Aren't you like the five year old with a hammer -- everything looks like a nail? flavius 02:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The anchoring formats in NLP is not simple Pavlovian stimulus->response conditioning. NLP anchoring has elements of timing or intensity and calibration of state in self and other people. Training people to detect state shifts (breathing changes, skin color changes, etc.) and anchor with a unique stimulus (such as unique voice tone, gesture, body movement, etc.) is a key topic in sensory acuity training. Anchoring is currently not in the article at all? How did we miss this? This is probably one of the key features that makes NLP unique. Are you aware of any precedants? I would be very interested in this. --Comaze 05:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

And this DIRECTLY supports my assertion that the US Army still uses NLP. For example, the drill is done as a unit, and is conducted in a large open space. The instructor gives a long, somewhat random series of commands (preferably with a bullhorn) which are related to combat with a rifle-mounted bayonete, such as "butt-stroke to the groin, move" or "thrust to the chest, move", all of which are carried out synchronously by the group. Just like group physical-training in synchronization is structurally trance inducing, so are the commands and movements of the bayonet drill. Interspersed are questions (to which the answers have been previously provided), such that call-and-response format is used (e.g. instructor: "What is the spirit of the bayonet? trainees: "To Kill! To Kill! To Kill without mercy!" or instructor:"What makes the grass grow?" trainees: "Blood! Blood! Blood makes the grass grow!"). The movements, coupled with the nature of the call-and-response questions and answers induces a state of violent aggressiveness which is close to murderous. This part of the drill goes on for many minutes, while other instructors walk through the formation, so as to assure that all trainees have reached the desired state. Once it is determined that all trainees have reached the desired states, then, AND ONLY THEN, is the command "mount bayonets" given, so as to anchor the state to the act of mounting the bayonet on the rifle. The drill may then continues for another 10-15 minutes, to get the soldiers accustomed to the change in balance and handling of the weapon when the bayonet is hanging off of the muzzle, but the most important part of the drill, anchoring the state of extreme aggressiveness to the act of mounting the bayonet has already been accomplished. It is precisely because this state is anchored to the act of mounting the bayonet that, while they allow soldiers to carry ANY other knife in the field, the US Army PROHIBITS personnel from carrying bayonets in the field without permission -- so as to eliminate the sorts of accidents that will happen when a soldier triggers the anchor by mounting a bayonette on his rifle. In addition, the Army also protects the anchor: during the drill, once a state of trance has been reached, the instructor issues a command to the trainees to recite: "I will not mount a bayonet on my rifle unless ordered to do so." This is quite obviously a post-hypnotic suggestion. I have discussed this drill with drill sergeants who know hypnosis and trance, and they have confirmed that the drill is still done in this way, as when I went through basic training in 1989. This is why I say that, even though TRADOC may say that they're not using NLP any more, the drill sergeants ARE using NLP-based methods (whether these methods were developed independantly, or even prior to Bandler and Grinder's work is immaterial -- the training methods in use by the US Army are completely consistent with what would be advised by anyone knowledgeable of NLP-derived methods for teaching, training, belief-system change, and behavior modification. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Thankyou Comaze. The timing aspect of anchoring is supported by the engram concept. It is the basis of the Hebb rule. NLP proponents such as Dilts, handle it pseudoscientifically. It will clarify the habit of NLPers to attach pseudoscience to every ritual in their books. Camridge 06:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Riiiiiiiiight, Camridge. Anchoring is handled in such a pseudo-scientific manner that after I first became aware of the concept, and how to do it, it worked better, and more profoundly than I would have ever imagined. I was out at a nightclub, drawing a portrait of a woman about 22-23 years old. I used a linguistic pattern to guide her into a state, and then anchored the state by lightly squeezing her wrist. Thereafter, every time I squeezed her wrist, regardless of what she was doing, not only did her face return to the identical expression as when I set the anchor (even her mouth!), but she even returned her head to the same position. And I had NEVER even tried using or even setting anchors before (other than, as it turns out, talking, since language is nothing more than a collection of anchors, individually known as "words") Yes, results such as that are even BETTER than "advertised" is entirely consistant with the sort of pseudoscience that the detractors claim it to be.....NOT!

As I said before, any academic researcher who claims that his experiments show no effectiveness of NLP foundation-level methods is either incompetant, sabotaging the experiment in some way, or flat out lying, and committing academic fraud, if only to please collegues who, it seems, are equally fanatical in their desire to make NLP "just go away" for fear of the impact it will have on their own income, career, and academic and/or professional prestige. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Lack of response from opponents is duly noted Akulkis 12:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Neuro in Neuro-linguistic programming

And then describing the different points of view on that topic. Let's discuss the different views from scientists, linguists, NLP developers, etc. I offered a comprimise -- I'll ask again -- is there any objection to renaming the engram section to "neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then providing a description of all the major views? I've added dubious tags to the engram section. --Comaze 02:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

To clarify, Comaze, I will revert to the original name - engrams. Neuro is best covered elsewhere (pseudoscience section especially). Camridge 06:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

...because you have an axe to grind. Enough said.

Well the only person calling it dubious is you, Comaze. It has been verified already according to mediation. Your addition of dubious tags is only ever in accordance with your nasty little agenda to narrow views to bandler and grinder, and to slow down progress towards clarification. I suggest that the automatic removal of your nonsense is the most productive way forward. DaveRight 03:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight. You know very well that engram is disputed becaues you and your group has engaged in a co-ordinated effort to revert. I have evidence dating back months. Given that you have rejected comprimise, ignored negotiation and mediation -- I will present the evidence to arbitration. Their decision will be binding. Can someone else please comment on DaveRight's recent reversion. --Comaze 04:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, please refer to the prior mediation that finished with VoiceOfAll stating that engrams must stay in the article. Evidence for engrams is abundant. You have persistently advocated the removal of verified fact, and you yourself have removed it on multiple occasions regardless of mediation or citation. Everybody realizes exactly how antagonistic, unproductive, tedious, and anti-NPOV policy your activities are. It is clear that your agenda is one of a narrow minded NLP zealot, and your activities go against multiple-view neutrally oriented clarification. You have constantly sought to cloud issues and present the narrowest and most whitewashed version of NLP available. Wikipedia is not a whitewash machine. It is here to clarify and elucidate. Solution: you are to be ignored. DaveRight 04:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, you are the one making persistent and unreasonable objections;

• demanding excess explanations,
• demanding excess citations,
• demanding mediation,
• demanding arbitration,
• advocating pseudoscience over science
• deliberately clouding issues
• ganging up with verifiable NLP sellers to push for arb/mediation
• AND deleting facts repetitively regardless of the outcome of the above.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that a reasonable person will believe that you will not remove facts after arbitration. NO promise you make can ever be trusted. Your background and history has created a severe lack of trust. Your agenda has always been to tediously vex progress on this article. YOU have created your own ridiculous situation through unreasonable demands and actions. In the interests of progress - you are most certainly only here to be ignored. Camridge 05:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, demanding citations when you and your cohorts make ludicrous claims like your NLP<-->engrams<-->Dianetics connections is not demanding EXCESS citations...seeing how you have yet to provide even ONE citation that holds up under scrutiny by neutral 3rd parties, your claim that we are demanding "excessive" anything is utterly ludicrous. I suggest you leave your little "flat-earth" society and get a clue. 12:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, Arbitration is binding on all parties --- even new editors. --Comaze 05:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, that makes no difference to me. Your tedious assertion is ignored. Camridge 05:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation: I, Camridge, am going to stomp my wee little feet and hold my breath until I get my way." Hey, Camridge, grow up, and accept learn to accept reality Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Engrams

The wording I inserted was "which some NLP practitioners..." with respect to engrams. enneagram is clearly used way more and the article must reflect that. Engrams are mentioned by two pretty serious authors, but it is likely that that is just their take on NLP. NLP is pretty variant, unorganized, and often unverified, so author's adding in their own concepts is no surprise. As long as engrams aren't overmentioned or made out to be the majority view, then its fine for the article.

I am currently working on a new Magic:The Gathering Wiki, pushing semi-protection, and trying to close AFDs and reverted vandals, so I don't have time for this same issue to re-hash for a forth time. Lets move on.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 05:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Good grief, no wonder this article is in trouble when it's being edited by someone so ignorant of the subject that they apparently don't know the difference between "enneagram" and "engram" - which are essentially unrelated, of course. Maybe VOAL should tell us what background knowledge an aeronautics engineer has of NLP?

VoiceOfAll, Your edit did not go far enough. I've reduced the length of the paragraph, diffs. I added a qualifier that states it is not a majority view within NLP based on the lack of citations from authoritative sources. --Comaze 06:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, VoiceOfAll. Effort towards clarify and brevity are at the forefront of my mind. I would say that Enneagrams are a lesser part of NLP though in comparison with engrams. Engrams are part of every part of NLP according to VAK, VK KAV, and every other aspect of internal engram sense circuits as has been explicitly explained by many NLP proponents, and as is implicitly indicated by all NLP texts according to the neuroscience explanation. Regards Camridge 05:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, What is VAK, VK, KAV? --Comaze 06:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, look through Dilts et al 1980. All those pseudomathematical notations are about those 4tuples, and they all explain the same kind of thing as the new diagram in the article. They all explain sense perceptions via engrams. But of course, you know that already, so I should just simply ignore your agenda to confuse and spread ignorance. Camridge 06:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

This IS a joke, isn't it? Another one who can't tell the difference between "enneagrams" and "engrams" and thinks the 4-tuple notations are "pseudo-science"!

1. Neither enneagrams NOR engrams are part of NLP - though it is certainly true that some NLPers dabble in enneagrams as well. But playing hockey and flying airoplanes doesn't mean that you have to be a pilot to play hockey!

2. The 4-tuple notation has nothing to do with science, any more than musical notation on a stave, or notation for ballet dancers, or Pitman's shorthand has anything to do with "pseudo-science". It is simply a form of shorthand which the writer uses to keep track of which perceptual system the writer thinks a client is accessing. Which again has NOTHING TO DO with engrams. It is the ignorance illustrated by comments such as those made by Cambridge which demonstrate the true mentality of the people who keep slagging off NLP and are clearly determined to present a totally unbalanced, highly negative POV. If the administrators of Wikipedia have any genuine concern for the integrity of their site then their action to halt this travesty is LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue.

Hi, mmm whoeverthisis. Read up on some neuroscience. If you are not completely averse to science or proper scientific research (as a lot of NLP fanatics are) you will quickly see that NLP uses the engram concept throughout the literature, including the original magic books. HeadleyDown 15:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, Headleydown also falsely cited NLP Vol.1... but that's not going to fool me because I've read Neuro-linguistic Programming: Vol.1 (Dilts et al) and have it right here. There is no reference to engram. A page number or a quote would end all of this. I'll say this -- in all the transcripts of seminars, books, tapes, CDs, interviews available of Dilts, Grinder, Bandler, Cameron-Bandler, or Delozier have NEVER used the engram concept. Are you saying that 4-tuple/6-tuple/primary experience/first access/F1-F2 transforms/Neurological transforms/linguistic transforms can all be explained with engrams? I doubt it. At the moment, you are indulging in original research. If one of the original developers of NLP used engram, then it would be very easy for you to provide citations from one of the original developers (authoratitive source). It seems that you are going to great lengths to promote one POV. I would really like to move on, but if my recent comprimise is reverted, I will definitely escalate this matter. --Comaze 06:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've just checked and yes, Camridge has reverted within minutes of posting my comprimise (again -- without discussion), see diffs. I was careful to not change any meaning in my paraphrase, except to add that engram is not a majority view in NLP. I'm confident that Camridge and DaveRight are working together to "own" the article. This is not wikipedian. I seeked to negotiate, mediate, and comprimise and my efforts have been largely ignored. --Comaze 06:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze's objection ignored on account of facts being correctly cited, repeatedly verified, scientific, and on account of Comaze's clear determination to antagonize helpful editors, obscure issues and halt/retard progress.Camridge 07:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, let me remind you, that you are the one trying to add a minority view and make it seem that it is majority! The way you are intentionally mixing the definition of engram used by Dianetics with the definition used by scientists is misleading and confusing. It can only be explained as original research. Ok ---- we must agree to disagree on this matter. Will you agree to present your case to arbitration so we can get on with it? I'll be arguing that we restrict engram to one or two sentences at most, and that it be framed as a minority view. --Comaze 07:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, NLP is fringe, and you are a fringe devotee. You are minority, and NLP is minority next to science. NLP is pseudoscientific, and pseudoscientists love to namedrop and make associations to neuroscience. Bandler and Grinder and all the others do that. But they don't explain how it fits with neurology, and the excuse is; its not science its epistemology, or technology, or we don't do theory. Those are pseudoscientific assertions and they make articles very unclear. Some NLPers do actually like to do theory. They state that neuro in NLP is explained using the engram concept. Science corroborates part of this theory, and clarifies further (Drenth, Levelt) by stating that they do it psuedoscientifically. The article WILL include engrams as that is a clarification of neuro, plus scienctists and critics view of engrams as explained by modern neuroscience (briefly as it is). That is what was agreed through mediation before, and as I have found over 20 references already to backup the mention of engram in NLP books, websites, and academic papers, then it will remain as the majority (scientific thinking to clarify pseudoscientific thinking) in the article. Camridge 08:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Be careful with your website references. The first result when you search NLP+engram use to be HeadleyDown's page. It is growing in number because this wikipedia is mirrored on other sites. I'm considering reporting this issue to the Neologisms crew. My difficulty is that you (and your group of editors) have reverted attempts to provide NPOV in order to make it engram appear to be a majority view, when it is not. Saying that Sinclair uses engrams and then criticising the entire field for Sinclair using engram is an example of straw man argument. Drenth and Levelt's papers are more credible, but do not have any citations on citeseer or google scholar. Counter example must be represented such as a paraphrase of Dr. Bolstad's paper, "Putting the 'Neuro back into NLP" --- I'll also argue that Sinclair can be deleted completely. If you are allowed to cite Sinclair then anyone can come in and cite books that apply NLP to many different fields such as a management, sales training, sports, requirements engineering, computer science, artificial intelligence. There are hundreds of books on NLP listed on amazon. --Comaze 09:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze I am referring to books from library searches in addition to web sources. I tend not to rely on Google's search engine for proof. There is no straw man argument anywhere on this article. The arguments used are strictly adherent to the literature. You have consistently promoted a pseudoscience (NLP) that makes wild claims throughout its promotion, throughout its principles, and throughout its literature. To remove such claims is simply whitewash, censorship, and dishonesty. You have been found guilty of all those anti-NPOV crimes, and the evidence is written all over your history. Camridge 10:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Fine - so where did you read the Dutch text of Drenth's article? Or do you have an English language translation?

PS, Amazon text searches are not satisfactory. A huge percentage of those books do not have searchable texts. Camridge 10:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm neutral here Camridge. I do have expert knowledge of the field so I know when someone makes false claims or staw man arguments. The entire criticism section is full of straw man argument. Engram is a good example of this. Pick a minority group that uses a pseudoscientific argument (engram) and then use that poor argument to criticise the entire field. I'm documenting many other such examples. Let's both document it and then present it as evidence for aribtration. This will probably stop the circular arguments. --Comaze 10:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. I don't understand your indignation regarding engrams. The concept does appear explicitly in some NLP literature [4] [5] [6] and it appears in Bandler's seminars as "holographic memory" [7] [8] ("Pragmagraphics" -- Wow!)flavius 13:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem, Flavius, is that like most of the criticisms of NLP, the sources are either misquoted, or not from genuine authorities. In other words - blatant quote mining. Of the three references you offer, the first does make reference to engrams - but as the term has been used in psychology. There is NO claim that engrams are part of NLP. The second quote is from an author whose book on NLP is self-published and has more mistakes than I've had hot dinners. He offers NO support for his use of engrams within NLP. The third quote is also from a non-authoritative source who gives no support for his use of the term with in NLP. In addition to this - having failed to legitimately place engrams within NLP practice, the self-styled "critics" then claim that the use of engrams within NLP is similar to their use in Scientology. Since you have NO GENUINE EVIDENCE that engrams have ever been part of NLP, how on earth can anyone justify such an opinion?

Like most of the article, this is a pack of lies by a group of people obsessed, for some reason they are unwilling to state openly, with bad mouthing NLP, no matter how many lies and half truths it takes to do it. That the administrators of Wikipedia have allowed this travesty to continue throws the worst possible light on Wikipedia as a source of RELIABLE information.

My comments above provide prima facie evidence of this criticism.

Comaze, how about the notion of "holographic memory" which recurs in Bandler's seminars and is mentioned in two of the links I provided. "Holographic memory" or "memory as a hologram" is essentially the engram idea. I have Bandler crap on about holographic memory more than once and I'm sure you have also. Doesn't the "Pragmagraphics" article count as evidence for the existence of the engram within NLP theorising? flavius 02:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. I concur, the hologram description is just another way to say engram. The internal sense circuits NLP refers to all throughout their literature (every book to my knowledge) describes the engram concept perfectly. In practice it is the same.

There is no difference between a dianetics auditor telling a preclear to focus on a trauma and remove the sound several times over, and an NLP practitioner telling a client to use their submodalities to remove their trauma in the same way. They are identical and the concepts are the same: pseudoscientific adaptations of scientific terms.

The more scientifically read authors (Such as Sinclair, Hollander, and the French chap) use the term engrams, because engram is a more accurate description (nerve circuits on a holistic rather than micro level). The Hebb rule, that Dilts and others like to mention is correct to some extent, but some of the terms are out of place. And of course, Hebb only ever mentioned his rule in the context of the engram and the brain, not the unconscious/subconscious. Regards HeadleyDown 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

So basically, Headless, you're admitting that the NLP writers who have used the term engram have done so in a manner which is consistant with the neuroscientists, and in a way which CONTRADICTS that of the Dianetics/Scientology people whom you have been trying to link to NLP. Thank you for playing, now move along, before you make more dishonest edits to the page and force me to once again point out that you're intellectualy dishonest Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Hello all, and merry tidings. Nice to see things advancing as they do. I wish to point out that VoiceOfAll is indeed a fine mediator, and has experience of the Dianetics article. So he knows a pseudoscience when he sees it:) Wikipedia is based on fact. So far we have successfully explained basic neuroscience to the effect that engrams are central to neuroscience and NLP. The only difference is neuroscience treats the engram concept scientifically, and NLP most often handles engrams pseudoscientifically. But NLP handles most things pretty strangely, as does dianetics. Its funny that this discussion should come back, but it is also predictable that fanatically promotional NLP editors would want to deny that engrams are a part of NLP both implicitly and explicitly. Engrams are here to stay as they are quoted explicitly, and they are an intrinsic part of neuro in any subject, especially NLP. Lets be fair; at least some NLPers handle engrams correctly, even if they are used to support a pseudoscience. Best regards HeadleyDown 15:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

We organised an RfC over at the engram article and this was the response... "I found "engram" used in a number of neuroscience journals. A Google search returned mainly references to Scientology (apart from a sports-person named "Engram"), and I think the Scientology use should be kept distinguished from the neuroscience use; the meaning is not the same. The term is not used in the original books about NLP, but it would be accurate to say that some writers about NLP have used the term. A search of usenet:alt.psychology.nlp did produce a very few occasional uses of the term in the very large amount of discussion there. --Enlad 23:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)" --Comaze 06:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Vote: Neuro in NLP?

Vote -- Rename the "Engram" section to "Neuro in neuro-linguistic programming" and then provide a paraphrase of all the major views and minor views on this subtopic Provide your vote below:

• Support --Comaze 23:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Akulkis Thu Dec 15 23:25:08 UTC 2005

Notes

Comaze, ganging up with meatpuppets is certainly not ok. This has been discussed many times over. Stop your tedious and unconstructive behaviour. Akulkis, just read the archives properly, and read some science for a change. HeadleyDown 02:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, the question was put in the spirit of wikipedia to resolve disputes and reach consensus. If you do not agree, then sign it with "object". --Comaze 03:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis, I made a minor change to the wording of the question after you voted. Changes: providing to provide, and changed description to paraphrase which is more precise. --Comaze 01:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Our mediator suggests that a poll will only work if we get other wikipedian editors in to vote. Otherwise, it will just be ignored by groups of editors who do not agree with the tally. --Comaze 05:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze's Image

Comaze, your antagonism goes beyond the bounds of reasonable behaviour. Stop or face the consequences! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Engram_Trace_and_NLP_V-K_Circuit.JPG

Camridge, What consequences? When you make contributions to wikipedia you need to expect that someone will edit it to improve it. Let me remind you that nobody owns this article. Some people can get a little possessive of edits or images they post -- get use to it. You need to accept this as part of everyday life on wikipedia. Let's all work together. Do you need a wiki break? --Comaze 10:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Spot the CRANK! Hey, Camridge, do you need a handle for that? WE all know how WIDELY RECOGNIZED Alain...uh...what the hell is his name again? ... is regarded throughout the entire NLP community. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 10:39:45 UTC 2005

Actually Akulkis, I do understand your perspective. I also used to be in the forces and I took to self help afterwards (trying to improve myself). NLP played a large part of that. Luckily I am not prone to confirmation bias. I realised it doesn't work beyond short term placebo. So I enroled in a uni degree in neuroscience. Lots of empirical stuff, tons of social psych and bucketloads of cognitive studies. I tried it out (in an applied psych way) It works. It works long term also. Not only does empirical or clinical psychology work, but it works according to empirical science. So the placebo is even stronger:) I am more effective, efficient, powerful in communication, and better at picking up skills. Not surprising though, all those undergrad psych books are full of logic, they use authorities such as science and great thinkers, and they do so in a factual way (not just NLP namedropping). I realize you will not just dump NLP and take up empirical thought and logic. But over the next few weeks keep it in mind. I notice you like an argument. If you spend a few months swotting up on empirically supported psychology and neuroscience, and use the empirical FACTS from this article, and go back into mindlist, you can rip their pseudoscientific arguments to shreds, and get ejected for presenting them with facts (they are a cult after all). Use effective empirically supported psychological techniques, ditch the cult of NLP and change your metamodel filter to one that is not based on pseudoscience (use critical science from a science perspective). It works. Cheers DaveRight 04:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps your assertion is reasonable Dave. I noticed other NLP fanatics lost their bluster after discovering that they were practicing second-hand dianetics rituals and justifying it using purely pseudoscientific excuses. For sure, if Akulkis does find time and purpose to read a science book or two, he would be less likely to humiliate himself in front of the other editors. Camridge 07:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, there you go ASS-uming again. The number of science books which I have read COVER TO COVER would fill a respectably sized private library (and that doesn't count the number of history books which I have read cover to cover). I was reading astronomy books when I was 7, and moved into astrophysics by the time I was 10. I'm not a fanatic, but I detest seeing liars such as yourself get away with the shit you're trying to pull. As I happen to be somewhat knowledgeable on the subject, and noticed GROSS errors in the page, I've been keeping tabs on the progress. I finally got sick of the slow progress rate, and that you and your little cabal keep re-iontroducing deliberate distortions.

By the way, I don't do any "rituals." Basically, I use NLP for expanding my ability to communicate with others, particularly in the areas of persuasion and behavior modification. It's just a method of accomplishing a task, in the same way as, for soldiers, firing a rifle is just one of many means to accomplishing his task. By your arguments, marksmanship is "pseudoscience" because *some* people make claims that are beyond their abilities. I'll give you an example. A couple years ago, a bunch of us reservists were mobilized for a border security mission. We all had to be qualified in the M9 pistol. There were several people who, despite repeated attempts, failed to qualify. The range NCO asked for volounteers to coach these soldiers who had repeatedly failed to qualify so that we could get them qualified and pack up for the day. So, I was matched up with a female soldier -- she had shot 4 times and still wasn't qualified, using the course of fire described here: <http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/appb.htm>, which means that 4 times, she had failed to achieve a score of 80 out of 200 possible points. I told her to ignore the instructions from the range NCO -- I would pay attention to those instructions, and pass on only those that required her to act on them. I then used a combination of trance inductions, visualization, and anchoring to prepare her for this next attempt. Between magazines, I kept having her visualize the proper sight picture, and having a perfectly steady sight picture throughout the entire trigger squeeze. The improvement was SUBSTANTIAL -- she scored 153. Not only did she score higher than me, but she missed the score for EXPERT (the highest qualification) by a mere 7 points. Now, Camridge, since you decided to make up yet another ludicrous statement, please explain for all of us how guiding this soldier through a trance induction, visualization, and anchoring is "practicing 2nd-hand Dianetics rituals". Ritual implies repetition. What I did was a "one-off" sort of thing (if you're familiar with computer progrmming jargon), something I just made up, on the spot, using the techniques which I have learned from the NLP community. No... NLP couldn't possibly be effective. It just WORKS with concrete, tangible results whenever I use it.Akulkis Fri Dec 16 08:30:13 UTC 2005

Well Akulkis if you can offer any clarifying facts with citations that are not the proclamations of pseudoscientists, then perhaps you could be of use. Otherwise your addition of useless and uncited POV excuses will simply be reverted. Camridge 09:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

When will you start providing citations from members of outside of academic disciplines which (1) are notoriously inept at any matter of scientific investigation, (2) has demonstrably low standards in regards to research, especially in attention to error analysis, and (3) has a very strong vested interest (in terms of funding and academic credibility) in maintaining the status quo and (4) is called "soft science" for the very fact that their work is generally sloppy, and more "science-like" than actually scientific. Merely running numbers through statistical functions does not make one a competent researcher. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Yes well it suits Comaze because it means he can change images from a seperate page surreptitiously, and it will not appear on the article as a change. Comaze's little game is as consistent as his desire to whitewash. Never mind, just revert his little nonsense and spend energy clarifying the article. HeadleyDown 15:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, I looked at the change-record you jackass. You're not fooling anyone. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 19:07:51 UTC 2005

Akulkis, I did change the image but I thought I was making factual corrections. The original image that HeadleyDown(Camridge) posted was based on some phrenology pseduoscience and I think was desined to disrupt the article. I will present it and the reaction to an attempt to correct it as evidence to arbitration that HeadleyDown's group of editors are trying to "own" the article.. --Comaze 00:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze and Akulkis. Surreptitious changes to the page are generally noticable after a short time, even though they do not show on watchlists and summaries. That sort of "Mr Bean" cunning will backfire every time. Comaze, you are a surreptitious editor. Your lack of success to promote NLP here is due to your blatantly obvious zealous promotion of NLP, and your name has become a beacon for fanatical behaviour. Wikipedia is a neutrally oriented organization of facts. You have been working against Wikipedia on a daily basis. Your agenda is clear. HeadleyDown 02:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How can it be "sereptitious" when all changes are logged, ya moron! Now, CEASE AND DESIST from your pathetic reversions to including slanderous linkages to Dianetics -- IT IS INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST to attempt to link NLP to DIANETICS ..... and you fucking know it. Now quite being a goddamned shithead, you dishonorable, dishonest slimeball. Akulkis

Akulkis. The term surreptitious (as far as I can see) refers to Comaze's method of making edits that will definitely be reverted, and then placing multiple minor edits on top (to deter people from changing his first edit). It is sneaky behaviour and results in automatic reversion. I think that is what the mr bean metaphor refers to. The image trick is surreptitious because it allows Comaze to make changes to the image (which is on its own article) without any changes appearing on logs on this article. So it seems as if you have directed the personal attacks (moron, intellectually dishonest, and all the rest) in the wrong direction. Camridge 07:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You just fully described what HeadlessDown did this afternoon. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 08:30:13 UTC 2005

Comaze, your goofy smiling image was reverted on the grounds that it is lacking a great deal of information that the six head image has. I cannot see why you would want to remove the businesslike image already presented. I can only conclude that you are here for nuisance alone. HeadleyDown 02:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Weighting more towards science

We gave the NLP fanatics a great deal of slack with the allowance of more weight plus primacy. Now I think it is time to give science weight over pseudoscience in the opening and the article, but we can still allow NLP primacy (as is conventional). So NLP should be described as scientists describe it, rather than just how NLPers want to describe it, using primarily scientific descriptions, and then the scientific critics can have their say as is already written. NLP really will take a great deal of clarification. Its such a murky subject. Regards HeadleyDown 15:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Anybody can test NLP....because there are no barriers to entry. Why is it that the vast majority of people who are calling it pseudoscience are people who will suffer some specific loss (in either income, academic authority, or prestige, if NLP methods become well-known and utilized...but NOBODY ELSE???? Headley, YOU, DaveRight, and Camridge have been caught in NUMEROUS lies about this subject. Now CEASE AND DESIST. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 19:07:51 UTC 2005

Akulkis, your willingness to refuse to accept cited fact has been noted. Whether it is due to NLP induced delusion, or blatant desire for fanatical censorship, your objections are not to be taken seriously. HeadleyDown 02:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis, this is another figment of your imagination that fails to consider the history of science. If the institution of science is as petty, parochial, vain and fossilized as you'd like to pretend it is then how do you explain that last 500 years of scientific progress? Scientific discovery eventually leads to the discarding of existing theories and models -- that has been the pattern since the project of science was commenced -- how could this invalidation of then current knowledge occur if scientists are pre-occupied with "income, authority, or prestige" to the exclusion of even truth and accuracy when benefit is tied to the theories and models that are going to be torn asunder? You have no evidence that science operates this way now or that it has ever operated this way, in general or specifically with regard to NLP. This is just more bluster from you. flavius 03:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Not only did I study a scientific discipline (Engineering), but I have 9 credit hours of the History of Science and Technology. Now quit patronizing me with your constant insinuations that i'm not intelligent enough to understand what is being discussed here and how. In fact, it's more than just probable that my intelligence exceeds yours, so I suggest that you stop with the intellectual equivalent of "your dick is small" comments...because I don't have to make a fool of you, all I have to do is expose where you've already done it yourself. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Rather than assert how intelligent you are why don't you answer the question I raised above. Even if you are a genius your assertions aren't worth a shit. Your paranoic worldview cannot account for the last 500 years of science. Since you studied History of Science you should have no problem explaining the contradiction your fantastic delusion introduces. flavius 04:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I think we've got a few editors here attempting to "own" this talk page and article. Let's break this up by using Requests for Comment, votes, and polls to get neutral editors in to weigh in on consensus. --Comaze 00:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Detractors simultaneously WITHIN THE SAME SECTION argue that NLP is pseudoscientific, and at the same time, claim that is successfully used by cults to control those within the cult, and that in the business community, it is used coercively. Exactly how can NLP be used to coerce someone if, by the claims that it is "pseudoscience" it doesn't work. This is equivalent to saying, "guns don't work AND the people who have them are killing people with them." You people (HeadlessDown, DaveWrong, and Camridge) are all over the fucking map. Pick an internally-consistant argument and stick with it.

Akulkis, this has been dealt with before. Cults use dianetics and drinking urine to obtain compliance. They have no measurable worth, and just like NLP are ineffective for their sold purpose. There is nothing inconsistent about NLP's ineffectiveness and NLP's use by the wrong headed and the cults of the world. HeadleyDown 02:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, you're being a two-faced liar again. Either NLP is ineffective and fails when used for purposes of influence and control, or it can be used for influence and control becuase it is effective. There is NO way to mix & match this. How can INFLUENCE techniques be labelled ineffective, and simultaneously be used SUCCESSFULLY to influence people to the degree of having CONTROL over them? That assertion makes absolutely NO sense, AND YOU KNOW IT. Do you have ANYTHING the slightest be logical or factual to contribute here -- because everything you're insisting on is either a logical flaw (as pointed out here), or out and out invention and falsification (such as your repeated pollution with the Dianetics/Engram bullshit. Why don't you just admit that your only purpose is to pollute the page with misinformation, because it's obvious that you'll grasp at any straw if you think it will portray NLP in a negative life, no matter how ludicrous the claim. And go enroll in Philosophy 101, Introduction to Logic while you're at it. Akulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005

Akulkis! Ignoring your personal attacks, your illogic is fatally unfounded. If you wish to accept that dianetics is effective in misleading people and that NLP is equally effective, then I agree. If you wish to promote NLP as a technology of achievement, you will feel the weight of several football stadiums full of scientists in white coats with all their bodies of knowledge against you. Not only are you erroneously promoting an ineffective set of rituals, but you are promoting a set of misdirecting new age concepts that are suspended using only a set of dubious pre-socratic pseudoscientific notions. There is hardly any need to answer your nonsense. I cannot see how you can present such a tissue of whoppers without noticing the mass of rational people who ARE laughing at your puny and ridiculous attempts at support. With nothing but Comaze and fanatical rhetoric to shore you up, you look about as sure footed as a rollerskating giraffe. In effect you are gobbing ineffectively into a gale-force wind. HeadleyDown 16:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis and Comaze. Both of you are being deliberately destructive. Comaze with your support of a highly abusive editor (Akulkis), and Akulkis, with your siding with a persistently (months of obtuse reverts) destructive editor (Comaze). You both deserve the same treatment (automatic reversion (and possible blocking according to authority decision)). HeadleyDown 02:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, you have just stated that you attempt to "own" the article by reverting editors that are not part of your "group". I urge you to retract this statement because it would violate wikipedia policy. --Comaze 03:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, loooky looky, over at the Talk:Engram#visual_patterns_stored_in_the_brain page....Someone spews off a bunch of Dianetics/Scientology BS about what the "real" meaning of engram is, and our favorite kook-in-residence, HeadleyDown, is asking the guy for more information, because he says that the D/S explanation is "interesting." Excuse me, HeadlessDown, but this is the EXACT SORT OF PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC nonsense that you claim to be arguing against, and, most interestingly, that is ****NOT***** in NLP. Akulkis Thu Dec 15 23:25:08 UTC 2005

Akulkis, your tantrum is noted, as is your abuse. To deny a fact that has been cited many times over, and discussed through mediation, is indeed a kind of delusion. HeadleyDown 03:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Awwwwwwwwww, poor Headley got caught buying into the same Dianetics/Scientology nonsense that he's been trying to attach to NLP to then use to discredit NLP.

By the way, I just looked at http://www.watchman.org/na/nlpexpo.htm ... Just like the criticisms section, it simultaneously claims that NLP is inneffective AND that what makes NLP dangerously cult-like in that it IS effective. No reasonable person can abide by the inclusion of a self-refuting reference. (Personally, I know for a fact from my own personal experience in the military that the US Army does use NLP effectively, and for among other things, changing core-beliefs.) Akulkis Fri Dec 16 04:30:38 UTC 2005

To All: Lets keep this civil please. Thank you.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Settle down guys! The poll is designed to resolve the conflicts! Not create it. If this works we can use similar polls to resolve any other content disputes. There is no need to make personal remarks -- that is for both sides! See Wikipedia:avoid personal remarks and Wikipedia:Civility--Comaze 03:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The poll has two votes, so it will be ignored as any such poll would. However, I already changed the title. We dont need a poll for this. In fact no polls will be useful here.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

VoiceOfAll, I was reading through the wikipedia dispute resolution and it recommends using polls to reach consensus and to help avoid people from owning an article. It also suggests that we should encourage other neutral editors to weigh in on such polls, and with RfC. Can you expand your reasons why polls are not useful here? --Comaze 03:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. Polls are abominable, as the article implies. They are the kneejerk of meatpuppets such as you, Akulkis, and all the other NLP zealots such as FT2, GregA, and co. They are all certified NLP fanatics and should be treated in the same group. You all push psuedoscientific arguments, all use selective editing, and all disrupt by persistent badgering. Your promotional ploys are pathetic. Is fun to watch though:) Keep up the foolish work. DaveRight 04:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

So, according to you, DaveRight, since you have already discovered my LONG LONG LONG trail of USENET writings, and thus know that I am a genuine person, your theory is that long ago, I invented the identity of Comaze....but now have decided to enter the fray under my own identity after taking so much time to conceal my identity behind then name of Comaze ???? I didn't realize that the neuroscience schools were letting in people who are as illogical and prone to obtuse rationalization as what they let into psych and sociology schoools. Live and learn, I guess Akulkis Fri Dec 16 04:30:38 UTC 2005

Akulkis, I understand you can be considered a meatpuppet. Your bias is clear, as is your willingness to attack. I did notice your dissociation with the more "spiritual technologists" though. That's why I mentioned you should try ditching NLP in favour of science for a while. You will be far more persuasive and effective that way. With serious studies to back you up, you will be unbeatable. I could be wrong but you may yet be capable of ditching the sticky pseudoscience of NLP. Cheers DaveRight 04:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's so rediculous that it seriously calls your judgement into question, as it DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS YOUR OWN FINDINGS of who I am. What university is teaching neuroscientists that ANY slander is acceptable if it helps you get your own way???? Once again, you're demonstrating that you are NOT interested in truth in this discussion, only in propagating lies. You, HeadleyDown, and Camridge, and Flavius have ALL been caught inserting lies into this page, and putting deliberate distortions in.....and you have the gall to start accusing ME of chickanery? Fuck you, you lying piece of shit FriAkulkis Fri Dec 16 14:34:04 UTC 2005.

Listen guys, if you want to get personal do so in the personal talk page. This here is for discussion the merits of differnet points of view and how much weight can be given to each POV and how it can be represented neutrally. We're not arguing about personal points of views but views what prominent people state about NLP. The more reputable, verifiable the better. Mixing personal attacks with general discussion is not wikipedian. If you want argue and throw around personal attacks go back to alt.psychology.nlp. --Comaze 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze your accusations of personal attack are misdirected. The ONLY editors throwing direct personal attacks and abusive language are proNLPers. You are part of that group, and instead of direct attack you resort to unreasonable accusation. Your agenda to slur has been identified by many neutrally oriented editors. Camridge 06:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceofAll. With regards conciseness, the best way forward is to give science it's due weight over pseudoscience. Pseudoscience will promote using as much confusing and misattributed namedropping as it can. The criticisms by scientists do need to refer clearly to NLP's claims. If NLP's claims are posted first then repeated in the criticisms, that causes redundancy, and I would really like to see more concise writing, and more room for brief scientific explanations. Therefore, I will now start making the article more concise using science as weight over pseudoscience. NLP can still retain primacy, but clarification is all important here, and science should get the weight. Camridge 05:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, The way you use engram is not science. The meaning of engram as used in neuroscience is different to that use in dianetics. Yet, you are diliberately trying to confuse the two so you connect NLP to Dianetics. This is not consistent. Is Sinclair using the Dianetics definition or the neuroscience definition -- it is unclear. I should add that I agree that we need to add more scientific references for both the definitions of NLP and connected criticism. We can spare the staw man claims about cults and new age "energy" nonsense. --Comaze 06:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I have made no jump from engrams to dianetics to NLP. Multiple citations place NLP with dianetics, and that requires brief explanation. The fact is corroborated by facts about pseudoscience, occult, cult characteristics, quick fix schemes and so on within NLP. Your objection is as unreasonable as your agenda. Camridge 06:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, actually since engrams are on layer of abraction far lower than the rest of NLP, NLP engrams aren't seriously related to Neuroscience or Dianetics. Some NLP practitioners say NLP and its idea of engrams are related to Neurology, so that is was the article will mention. The relation is nevertheless vague and trite, but not wrong.

Enneagrams should also be mentioned breifly somewhere though.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 06:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure, VOA, they are mentioned in the dubious/new age/occult section. They can be explained briefly in the method section also though. I'll see what I can find. Camridge 06:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi VOA. Yes engrams are a theoretical abstraction, and they are presented by Dilts (Hebb rule) and by Sinclaire amongst others in a pseudoscientific way. Encyclopedias explicitly place the engram as core (neuro). Drenth and Levelt amongst others criticise NLPers for doing it pseudoscientifically (trite is a good way of putting it also). Enneagrams confirm NLP's new age background. Camridge 06:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Polling

If many outsiders came in, and not brand new accounts either, and voted, polls would work. Otherwise, everyone is just split into the same two groups, so the other side ignores the poll and calls "meatpuppets". We need a more rough concesus, as opposed to tallying.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. Polling is always the last and nastiest option. I am against it in principle. There are so many reasonable editors around, but the meatpuppet NLPfanatics have tried polling/ganging up so many times before. It doesn't work and they show bad faith every time, ignoring compromise, and ignoring decisions of mediators. Your edits have been OK as far as I see. If you do make any deletions that remove important fact, a reasonable editor will place it back in brief adjusted form. Thats worked well so far. Cheers DaveRight 10:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the point that VoA was making other more experienced wikipedians would need to participate in a poll for it to work. We don't really want a factional caucus to decide the outcome of a poll beforehand. Are there ways to advertise polls on wikipedia? --Comaze 23:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

--Comaze 03:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)==To HeadlyDown, Would you consider clean up this article please?==

I had a bit of trouble reading the article. I was trying to moving the criticism under introduction section into the criticism haeding. I have not removed any lines from the article. I am sorry if this upsets you. If you feel that the article should not be changed at all, may be you should consider getting this article locked out. From an outsider point of view looking for a quick introduction on NLP and a quick list of pros and cons, I find the present layout quite confusing.--RichardCLeen 13:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Richard. Sorry if I seemed a little brusque. I am indeed working on cleaning things up. There was an agreement to give NLP more primacy, and the NLPthencriticisms format should stay for now. Clean is indeed what I have planned. I am merging various aspects of applications in order to reduce redundancy and reduce the file size. I'll be only 10-20 minutes. Any suggestions are welcome. Regards. HeadleyDown 13:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

For sure, cleanup is a relevant issue now. There has been so much pressure from NLP wierdos to provide excessive evidence and explanation for the article that cleaning things up took less priority over brevifying and restoring facts that had been unreasonably censored. Now that the conflict is minimal (or at least very easy to deal with) I think a tidy article will be a good goal from now on. Of course, keeping things brief will help. I suggest general deletion of any undue NLP excuses (uncited) or excess promotional verbiage will be a good way to edit. Regards HeadleyDown 13:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation: I, HeadleyDown, refuse to agree to an NPOV, and instead, regard those who have called me out on my rediculous slanders, lies, and half-truths as "weirdos" because, rather than argue on substance, I, HeadleyDown, can only reply with ad hominem attacks, and pigheaded stubborness.

I am stubborn in some sense. I will see NLP explained in an encyclopedic fashion. No nonsense, no bluster, no excuses. Just helpful, reasonable explanation. I have the support of rational humanity behind me. And I am completely aware of the Wikipedians here who will not stand for the deliberate obscuring of factual knowledge. HeadleyDown 16:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I see that DaveRight has ONCE AGAIN INCLUDED THE DIANETICS SLANDER AGAINST PERLS. Dave, your side has ALREADY FAILED to produce the slightest bit of evidence that Perls was promoting, or even using Dianetics. You know, you guys are just something else. I'm hardly and expert in this field, and yet, I'm catching you in deliberate lies left, right and center. The Perls/Dianetics reference is being REMOVED ... and it shall STAY THAT WAY until you can produce evidence for your claim. Akulkis Sat Dec 17 01:39:36 UTC 2005

Akulkis, the fact is well supported. Mediation resulted in it remaining in the article. Your constant removal of fact is bad faith, and shows you to be an NLP zealot bent on censorship. The fact is clear from books on Gestalt, from dianetics books, and from some of his biographies. My recent reversion of your's and Comaze's confounding minor cap edits is due to the fact that it has all been dealt with in the archives. Either discuss and edit using facts and in good faith, or do not edit at all. HeadleyDown 02:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadlessClown, please explain your revert of changing this:

• Visual: upward eye movement; shallow breathing; muscle tension in neck; high pitched/nasal voice tone; phrases such as “I can imagine that idea clearly”
• Auditory: horizontal eye movement; even breathing from diaphragm; even or rhythmic muscle tension; clear midrange voice tone, sometimes tapping or whistling; phrases such as “I hear what you are saying”
• Kinesthetic: eyes down to right; belly breathing and sighing; relaxed musculature; slow voice tone with long pauses; phrases such as “I feel that have a firm grasp of it“

• Auditory internal dialogue (or natural language); phrases such as “I say to myself x“
• Direction: The direction left or right together with temporal predicates informs if an image or sound was recalled or constructed

Back to this:

• Visual: eyes up to left or right according to dominant hemisphere access; high or shallow breathing; muscle tension in neck; high pitched/nasal voice tone; phrases such as “I see”.
• Auditory: eyes left or right; even breathing from diaphragm; even or rhythmic muscle tension; clear midrange voice tone, sometimes tapping or whistling; phrases such as “I hear what you are saying”.
• Kinesthetic: eyes down left or right; belly breathing and sighing; relaxed musculature; slow voice tone with long pauses; phrases such as “I have a strange feeling about this”.

It is now OBVIOUS that when you say your are "correcting" things, that all you're doing is mass-reverting by just going back to a previous checkpoint, and blindly undoing ALL changes, without even fucking looking at the page -- which is both intellectually and academically dishonest, and indicative that you are NOT interested in cooperating with anyone, but merely here to OWN the page. Sorry, Headless, but if you hate NLP so much, then set up your own webpage, and write all your slanders there. I'll even support putting a link to your scribblings in the links section. Akulkis

Civility

Akulkis, I've already spent the last 3 weeks warning a group of users to cease with the personal attacks. We don't want to give them any fuel to start back up again. Intentionally misspelling someone's handle or providing personal remarks in edit comments is against wikipedia policy. I realise that you are just new to wikipedia so it will take a little while to get use to it. Just ignore any personal remark and reply to the merits of an argument (or not at all). --Comaze 03:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. I did some checking, and your definition of personal attack is incorrect. Editor's clear description of your extremely biased editing, devious manouvers, and descriptions of your denial of fact is not a personal attack. In addition, Akulkis should simply be blocked from editing wikipedia. Personal attacks using deliberate misrepresentation of usernames, and abundant expletives is completely unacceptable, and has only served to paint NLP promoters as uncooperative anti-NPOV deviants. I have noticed that is a common characteristic of NLP promoters. The trend is clear. RomanX 04:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis is only a new user here so we must assume good faith. For example, your edit contains an attack, implying that an editor is a NLP promoter implies that the editor is not neutral, which is technically a violation of Wikipedia:assume good faith. I agree that personal remarks in edit comments should be avoided. In Wikipedia technically any personal remark is a personal attack; this includes staw man arguments. Pointing out bias in specific edits is fine but this should be accompanied with a link to the diffs in question rather than making accusation about "promotion". It is then important to other neutral wikipedians in to weigh in on consensus. Any personal remarks directed at specific users, rather than arguing about the merits is a violation of wikipedian policy. The policy states if you think things are getting personal then send a private message or work it out via email. The discussion page is designed for people to work together to reach consensus on a neutral point of view. --Comaze 06:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, the only people being uncivil here are Akulkis for Fing and Blinding at people, and you for making officious statements while conducting a concerted agenda to remove cited facts. HeadleyDown 03:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Quit behaving like a pathological liar, and I'll quit treating you as such. Akulkis 12:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Bandler's Profession

Bandler is described in the introduction as a mathematician. He has no degree in mathematics and he never worked as a mathematician so in what sense is he a mathematician? Bandler has a BA in psychology and philosophy and an MA is psychology. Unlike Grinder, Bandler never held a job outside of teaching and practicing NLP since his graduation. NLP is all he's ever done. At the time NLP was conceived Bandler can only be described as a "psychology graduate" flavius 15:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius. Maybe you are right. Reports are confusing and sometimes completely erroneous though. Some call him DR Bandler:) Now that's funny! HeadleyDown 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

We had a commment on this over at the Talk:Richard Bandler, "Bandler does not have a real doctorate. He has a BA and an MA. He was awarded an honourary doctorate from a continental European university. However, references to Richard Bandler as 'Dr Bandler' predate his honourary award and by convention honourary PhD holders are not to use the title 'Doctor' (especially not for commercial promotion). 60.240.178.243 02:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)" --Comaze 22:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

note: According to Grinder when they met Bandler was a 4th year undergraduate psychology student at University of California (Santa Cruz campus). --Comaze 23:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That was me Comaze before I created an account, I point that out below for the sake of transparency. In one of his seminars Bandler claimed he submitted a doctoral thesis at the USF and was an awarded a PhD from their. He said that we had difficulty finding where to submit his dissertation because he had cut soe many classes. This sent alarm bells ringing in my head -- any one that knows anything about postgraduate study knows that the amount of classes fall the higher you progress. There are classes when you undertsake a PhD, there are only occassional meetings with your supervisor. So I wrote an email to the USF Alumni Society to ask them if a they had ever awarded a doctorate -- honorary or earned -- to a Richard Wayne Bandler. The officer replied that they had no such record. I then went to Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- I found Grinder, he did submit a thesis titled "On Deletion Phenomena" IIRC and he was awarded a doctorate. Bandler does not appear in the Proquest\UMI dissertation index. The email counts as original research and although I can supply the response complete with headers to anyone that's interested it's not suitable for Wikipedia verification puproses. A link to the Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- which I have included in the Bandler article -- should be ok. If Bandler has a doctorate it is neither from a North American university nor is it earned. I could no detail about Bandler's honrary doctorate except rumour that t came from a Continetal European university. Any attempt to solicit detail on alt.psychology.nlp is met with an avalanche of abusive replies. Attempting to verify any of Bandler's claims is strictly verboten -- the worshippers don't like their idols being tarnished. Regarding Bandler's undergraduate and graduate qualification IIRC he attempted to submit the manuscript of Magic I to the psychology department of USC as his master's thesis. It was rejected because it wasn't entirely his work. He re-worked it and submitted it and was awarded an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". The marketing angle that B&G pursued in promoting NLP wasn't compatible with one of the inventors being a psychology graduate since NLP was touted as a revolutionary breakthrough something altogether different that came from outside of psychology by two people that supposedly knew nothing of the fields. In his early seminars I have heard Bandler refer to himself as a physicist, an information scientist, a computer programmer, and a mathematician. In "Bandler Doing Bandler" I think he's an "information scientist", in one of his NHR recordings he's physicist (with a special interest in optics, which is the leadin to his pontifications about holographic memoey) and in one of his DHE recordings (IIRC) he's a computer programmer. Can we remove the reference to him as being a mathematician, he is no such thing and their is no evidence that he even took a single unit in math at university. flavius 04:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed "mathematcian" to "psychology graduate". According to Lee Lady Bandler was a linguistics graduate refer [9][10]. I'll continue investigating this. flavius 04:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius. Unless we can obtain better evidence, we should provide only titles that we know for sure. Bandler's shamanic role is common knowledge. I did hear that he minored in psychology, but he was either a computer scientist or a math nerd. Either way, we need to clarify things regarding his quals. Dr is certainly not one of his qualifications. Bandler is most certainly not a psychologist now. RomanX 04:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Thankyou flavius. I think Lee Lady is probably one of the more reliable sources on the history of NLP -- but it is not published so I don't know about how much weight we can give it. There is another book on the history of NLP by McClendon (The Wild Days) -- I don't know how reliable this is. Whispering in the Wind also has a section on the history of NLP but that is probably from Grinder's point of view. Checking with the university directly is the best way to check this out -- thankyou for doing this. American Pacific university is a non-accredited university[11] that has issued PhD[12] to some NLP trainers, this needs to be checked out also. see Matt James, Tad James. I don't know of any reliable sources for the history of NLP because of the mix between fact, marketing and "change personal history". My next question is about weight. Given that Bandler does not have a PhD is he to be given less academic weight? It could be considered staw man to take a weak argument from someone who does not have proper qualifications and then use it to criticise the entire field. Then again, Bandler is considered the NLP 'guru' so I don't know how this effects things. We may need to separate "academic NLP" from "non-academic NLP". Separate the wild marketing claims from the actually published scholarly work. --Comaze 06:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I have been able to confirm the following details:

Richard W. Bandler

DOB: 24th February 1950

UCSC College: Kresge College

UCSC 1st Degree, Major and Class Year: BA, 1973, Psychology, UCSC

No further qualifications listed.

again like the private correspondence between myself and the officer of the USF Alumnus Association (which I am willing to share via email) this source isn't directly citable in Wikipedia. It does however confirm Grinder's report and the MJ article. I suggest we use Grinder's account in Whispering and the bio details in MJ as citations for the description of Bandler as a "psychology graduate". The official record lists Bandler as having a BA in Psychology so I think it's fair to describe him as a"psychology graduate". He isn't a psychologist because that requires further qualifications and professional licensing. flavius 07:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I can understand Kresge College awarding Bandler an MA in "Theoretical Psychology" for a version of Magic I. Kresge encouraged this sort of transdisciplinary, avante-garde, unorthodox research. flavius

Thankyou, could you please email the correspondence to me, Special:Emailuser/Comaze. Is there any way to confirm or deny Bateson's involvement in Bandler's MA? Bateson wrote the foreword for Magic I, signed, 'Gregory Bateson, Kresge College, UCSC'. --Comaze 08:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I emailed you as requested. Lee Lady mentions Grinder as Bandler's MA thesis supervisor. B&G met Bateson -- as opposed to Grinder becoming acquainted with him earlier -- at the Alba Road commune. I can't find an exact date when B&G moved to Alba Road. If we can establish a chronology of events we may be able to determine the likelihood of particular events. FWIW I don't think Bateson actively helped Bandler with his MA thesis -- there aren't any Batesonian ideas in Magic I at least not in the core of the thesis. When Bateson was at Kresge Grinder had only a passing acquaintance with Bateson (as a person) which he talks about in Whispering, so it is unlikely that Bandler knew him well enough while at Kresge to get his assistance. I'll look this up. flavius 06:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. I'll responf to your question raised in the last part of the post above here. You say, "My next question is about weight. Given that Bandler does not have a PhD is he to be given less academic weight? It could be considered staw man to take a weak argument from someone who does not have proper qualifications and then use it to criticise the entire field. Then again, Bandler is considered the NLP 'guru' so I don't know how this effects things. We may need to separate "academic NLP" from "non-academic NLP". Separate the wild marketing claims from the actually published scholarly work.". I don't think anyone is proposing an argument to undermine NLP on the basis of Bandler's lies. That incidentally would be a form of Ad Hominem not "straw man". NLP -- like everyhing else -- can only be assessed on its own merits and that is what the cited critical literature does. Bandler's qualifications and lies about the same are relevant as subordinate concerns to the 'NLP as pseudoscience' and 'NLP as charlatnry' topics. As you mentioned earlier there are many NLP trainers with diploma mill PhD (or in Bandler's case not even a cheap bit of parchment). The fake academic qualifucations are part of the semiotic arsenal of the con-artist. When Bandler says he has a PhD and calls imself Dr Bandler and says he is a physicist, computer scientists etc he is trying to misappropriate some of the prestige that the much of the public invests in its scientists. Carmine Baffa, Tad James and his son engage in the same sort of seedy behaviour. So from a social psychological, sociological and anthropological perspective the fake degrees are of interest. Any analysis of the con would need to mention the fake degrees. It is also significant because Bandler, James and Baffa are not obscure trainers, they occupy the uppermost echlons of NLP. flavius 07:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I would need to see over 10 references that verified Bandler's qualification. NLP fanatics demanded over 10 refs for the engram fact and those references were provided. Comaze, you must provide that level of verification if you wish to hold an MA graduation party for Bandler. HeadleyDown 12:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, I am confident only that Bandler has a BA in psychology from UCSC whicg he gained in 1973. I can only find one source (the MJ article) that mentions the MA. Regardless, I think it's appropriate and accurate to describe Bandler as a "psychology graduate". Even if he doesn't have an MA in psychology "psychology graduate" remains an accurate description of Bandler at the time of the formulation of NLP. I am also confident that he is not a mathematician or a computer scientist, computer programmer or "information scientists" because Kresge doesn't and never has had these departments ([13]. Kresge is primarily a humanities and social sciences college and it is heavily influenced by post-modernism ([14]). flavius 06:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

RomanX, the Mother Jones artcile describes Bandler as having a an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". Lee Lady says that Bandler's MA was in linguistics. Grinder describes Bandler as a psychology graduate. Remember he sumitted a form of Magic I as his masters thesis. He wouldn't have been able to submit that at the Maths or Computing departments at UCSC. Also, Lee Lady tells us that Grinder supervised Bandler's MA thesis. Grinder was at the time attached to the linguistics department of UCSC. There is no evidence -- absolutely none -- that Bandler took any units in mathematics or computing. I agree he never was a psychologist and he definitely isn't a psychologist now. "Psychology Graduate" is not equivalent to "Psychologist". If a version of Magic I was his MA thesis and Grinder supervised him then we know he isn't a maths or computing graduate because Grinder was part not employed in either the math or computing departments and Magic I is about neither topics. Magic I is heavily influenced by TG (at least in a broad conceptual way), which a linguistic theory current at the time Bandler was at USC. Also, it was Grinder's area of expertise as a linguist (he wrote a tutorial on the topic). However, given that Magic I is not about linguistics but incorporates concepts from linguistic theory I doubt that it would have been acceptable to the linguistics department. Magic I -- whatever its merits -- is concerned with psychology (it approaches psychology using a framework from linguistics). I think Magic I would have been accpetable to a psychology department that fosters "avante-garde" approaches and UCSC psychology department was one such faculty. For this reason I think the MJ account and Grinder's account are correct. I think it is accurate to describe Bandler as "psychology graduate". This isn't the same as saying he is or was a psychologist. flavius 06:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with you, Flavius. Roles and titles are important, prior and present. Self help guru, is a term that covers both presently. One important fact that does need briefly explaining more clearly in the main body is that neither of them is a scientist or a psychologist. This could perhaps be placed in the pseudoscience section briefly. This is the view of Singer and Lalich, amongst others. Regards HeadleyDown 08:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley. Yes, an undergraduate degree in New Age psychology (Gestalt, TA, Primal Scream) from a thoroughly post-modern college does not a psychologist or a scientist make. Similarly a PhD in TG -- a lingustics fashion from the 1970s -- does not make one a psychologist or a scientist. Neither B&G have training in experimental psychology or science in general. I don't think either have taken even a 101 level course in statistics and experiment design. Grinder's account of the function of statistics in empirical testing in Whispering is risible. Similarly Bandler has only a minor in philosophy and Grinder may have the same (he too has a BA majoring in psychology). This accounts for their naive philosophising. flavius 06:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius. I believe your account of BnG's background will be very useful and clarifying for the article, as you have focused on cross-verifying the research. Unlike Comaze and co, you have also acted in good faith throughout whilst providing lucid explanations of the facts. I don't think you need any more evidence to place those clarifying facts on the article in some brief form. Regards HeadleyDown 07:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello RomanX and welcome. This is a tricky one. BnG allow as many myths about them as people want to create. I think we would need to rely more on recent history to label them. They have made impacts into the self help industry and that seems to have been their greatest contribution (the spread of pseudoscience and mind myths). Salerno gives journalistic coverage of these facts. Really though, in a way NLP is not the product of the originators. It is simply an extension of the new age human potential movement. Hubbard instigated this through prompts from Aleister Crowley, and the occult aspects remain within millenial NLP new age developments. Indeed not a week goes by without some new spiritual technology appearing and most with some association with NLP. I will need some more conclusive evidence in order to make a decision. As people here realise, NLP is deliberately confusing and obscurantic. HeadleyDown 12:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Salerno

Akulkis Sat Dec 17 03:31:25 UTC 2005 Salerno is HIMSELF of dubious authority. A large number of reviewers on Amazon.com cite faulty logic, assertions without evidence, and outright fabrication and mischaracterization. See here: [for Sham : How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless by Steve Salerno]

Akulkis, I don't know how reliable the Amazon is for reviews because anyone can publish there anonymously. Is there any links to magazines or more reputable publicatons that criticise Salerno? I have to go out now, but I'll check later. I appreciate your pointer. Thanks. --Comaze 03:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You're a clown Akulkis\Aaron. If you have a real degree from a real university (as opposed to a piece of paper from a diploma mill that you paid $100 for) then I'm Elvis Presley. Since when were reviews on amazon.com authoritative and citable. People like you can contribute reviews to amazon, you don't even have to have bought the book from Amazon to post a review. People that haven't even read the book can post a review. So on the basis of "a large number of reviews" that assert that Salerno is a dubious authority he must therefore be a dubious authority. The popularity of an opinion then establishes its truth. In my part of the world we mock that logical fallacy by saying, "Eat shit, 50 million flies can't be wrong". Communism must then have been a sound economic and political theory since the USSR was full of communists. Wahabist Islam must be the way to go huh? We can ask all of the mullahs and imams to confirm that. You are embarassing Comaze and yourself. flavius 06:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Flavius, when people who are SYMPATHETIC to the author's point-of-view (Specifically, the book "SHAM: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless", and LARGE NUMBERS OF SYMPATHETIC READERS WHO PURCHASED THE BOOK disagree with the author's conclusion... that tells you something. When an author can't even convince most of the people who are predisposed to believe in his thesis, then he's most likely full of shit. And this must be the first time anyone has referred to a Big-10 University's schools of engineering as a "diploma mills"

As I've stated before. You -- like all WWW Kooks -- have an aberrant concept of evidence and this distorted notion of evidence not only renders you unable to actually debate a matter but also creates and sustains your paranoid worldview. Regarding your degree, I don't think you have a real degree. I looked at many of your posts on a range of topics. At best you're are hack second-rate Unix administrator (you actually detract from the Unix and Linux forums you participate in, you have shared nothing that marks you as remarkable as an IT technician) with a jaundiced view of the world that leads a socially isolated and misanthropic life. flavius 06:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Akulkis and Comaze. Having had a good read through both of your many objections, I would consider your efforts a concerted whitewash of NLP. If you wish to edit on this article, I suggest you do a few years of trust recovery first. If you wish to present facts on the article, you would also do well to take a scientific/anthropological/historical perspective. Your current perspective is taken from that of pseudoscience. Sorry, Akulkis and Comaze. You have been rumbled and that is due to your own exposure of your strongly antagonistic agenda. The only way I can see to deal with your misdirecting and unreason is to write briefly that you are in error, or are simply here to cause trouble, and to revert your obscuring of the facts. RomanX 04:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh look, Another one of Headley's flat-Earther friends who hides behind a pseudonym.Akulkis

RomanX, I pointed out my objections quite clearly. I've asked for a third party comment to avoid any accusation of bias. Since you are just new to wikipedia I have no way to judge if your opinion is neutral or not. Rather than shooting the messenger, why not address the specific objections to Loma, Raso, Barrett and NCAHF directly? Notice that I have questioned Akulkis comments, and I have send a private message asking him to not make personal remarks in edit comments. Everyone on wikipedia is welcome to make contributions. --Comaze 06:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV / on-topic

Comaze, your whitewashing of your own anti-NPOV activities is also hillariously transparent. Many neutrally oriented editors here have written in depth and at length about your months of fact deletions, your sneaky moves, and your certified NLPpromoter meatpuppetry. Your agenda is clear, and you are to be ingored and reverted. HeadleyDown 07:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, I will not respond to you here. It is off-topic. A reply can be found here. --Comaze 07:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your reply was deleted as it was simply part of the persistently unreasonable harassment you have been guilty of conducting towards the neutrally oriented editors on this article. Deleting, ignoring, or reverting Comaze's persistently unreasonable agenda is perfectly acceptable. HeadleyDown 08:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, if you insist on neutrality editors on this page, then you must recuse yourself IMMEDIATELY -- in less than two weeks, I myself have caught you inserting numerous lies in this page. And when it is shown that you have perpetrated a lie, you STILL insist on re-inserting it. I don't mind criticism of NLP -- but you're a zealot of the flat-earth-believing variety.... either that, or a psychological counselor who can barely afford to pay the rent for his office, and is utterly terror-stricken over your clients getting wind of better ways to solve their problems than whatever it is that you are doing...not for them, but for yourself and your bank account. Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005

Barrett, Raso, Loma, NCAHF and Quackwatch

The misrepresentation of criticism is not limited to the Dianetics / engram stuff. The opening line to "Dubious applications" contains this statement ....

"Dr Barrett, the organizer of Quackwatch, describes NLP as a therapy to avoid[22], and The National Council Against Health Fraud (Loma 2001) classify NLP is a "dubious therapy".

Objections:

• Quackwatch (Barrett) cites Druckman and Swets (1980) so this should be cited directly
• NCAHF does not cite Loma, it cites an article by Jack Raso in Priorities for Health magazine. An opinion which is already quoted elsewhere in the article as Raso (1994).
• NCAHF is not a well-known organisation, Barrett is the administrator of the web site and main editor. It has a very low Alexa rank.
• Quackwatch and NCAHF.ORG are operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D. (based on whois search).
• I assume that Loma (2001) is "Loma Linda University" and not a person! see here -- I am not able to find any information about Linda Loma on the internet so we currently have no evidence to suggest that Linda Loma is a notable author on the topic.
• This is really silly guys Loma Linda is the name of the town....[15]

The National Council against Health Fraud, Inc.

Post Office Box 1276

Loma Linda, CA 92354

The rules at most universities state that you should whenever possible cite the original research. Quoting Barrett and NCAHF in this manner is not acceptable. There are many similar examples in the criticism section. Other citations need to be checked for misrepresentation and overgeneralisation. I am not impressed with the accuracy of the current document - both in definitions and criticism of NLP. Can someone neutral please check it and make necessary corrections starting with statements attributed to NCAHF and Dr. Barrett. I am making notes on the various areas with that need a fact and reference check. Normal the fact and reference check team will only go to work on a page that is fairly stable (ie. with no edit wars). If Loma exist and is notable a simple google search could prove the point. At the moment we have no verifiable evidence that Loma exists, or is notable. I think the author was created or a simple error. Unless evidence is found, I will remove all references and statements attributed to Loma 2001. I'll give you until tomorrow and then I'll delete all text attributed to Loma (2001). There is a town in california called: Loma Linda, CA --Comaze 06:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Another misrepresentation in this citation:

* The extent of the "dubious therapy" label in the original context is applied to "mental health" whereas we have broadened the scope to be just a generally dubious therapy in all applications.

Irrespective of this, I second that Quackwatch and NCAHF citations should be removed. They are not notable. In fact, wikipedians already had this debate over at the Chiropractic article. Quackwatch lists taking vitamins, eating fresh fruit, chiropractic, vegetarian diets and meditation all as quackery. This is far from both standard scientific viewpoints and the weight of public opinion. Barrett has landed quite a lot of legal attention as a result. Best to simply avoid him and his websites in favour of more notable sources.

I am also in favour of extending this discussion of misrepresentation of facts. Eisner has been misrepresented, as has the Watchman Fellowship. Both topics for future discussion. (n.b. I've read the archive. You're a busy bunch.) Peace. --Metta Bubble 01:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Metta Bubble. There are many sources who state NLP is dubious, and some of them also call it devious, banal, a cult and so on. I have added their corroborating view to that of NCAFH, who does have weight as a consumer awareness body. It is the view of a significant body of authors. Regards HeadleyDown 03:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley. Did you know that if you type NCAFH into google, four of the top five matches are links questioning the NCAFH's credibility? Wikipedia itself doesn't cite NCAFH's credibility except in this article. What's more, NCAFH is clearly synonymous with QuackWatch (both run by the same person to promote the same viewpoints). This kind of doubling up of dubious citations is rife in this article (with Eisner and Sharpleys views doubled also). If you look to a truly respected international body you find The World Health Organisation is employing a Master NLP Practitioner to manage their UNAIDS awareness campaigns. Why? Because it's dubious, banal and cultish? Or more likely because the World Health Organisation thinks NLP works and will get the results they need. Or should we ask the self-proclaimed "Quackwatcher", long retired and long disputed ex-doctor from North America as you suggest. I've read all the logs and I'm satisfied this discussion is worth raising here now. Peace. --Metta Bubble 10:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello again Metta Bubble. I know if you type various stuff into Google, various magical things happen. However, the NCAFH has been around a while, and has accrued a fair amount of litigation because the US is a highly litigous society. Consider why they would want to class NLP as a dubious therapy. What evidence do they have that NLP is a dubious therapy? I suspect it is because they have the same evidence that is presented on this article; that of empirical science. NLP is pseudoscientific in principle theories, ineffective in practice, and pseudoscientific in excuse. What could be more dubious than claiming your "therapy" is a kind of theraputic magic? NLP was, is, and will continue to be dubious. Reason is important here. If you are disputing that NLP is not a dubious therapy (or that is not the view of some people) then I think you are in the wrong place. Regards HeadleyDown 13:26, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Metta Bubble. I think your logic is flawed. You are attempting to infer the efficacy of NLP because UNAIDS employs an NLP practitioner. How can you possibly bridge this yawning chasm? Numerous organsiations have been hijacked, infiltrated and contaminated by "dubious, banal and cultish" groups and doctrines. See for example [16][17]. You and Akulkis appear to believe that truth is somehow connected to consensus. If we could establish truth by consensus then could dispense with science and just have polls on all matters. It is of no significance that an arm of the WHO employed an NLP practitioner or that some drill sergeants use NLP or than some police departments use it. There was a point in time in the history of Western medicine when bloodletting was a standard treatment for numerous illnesses [18][19]. George Washington himself was fond of bloodletting, so much so that it eventually killed him. Why did 19th centuey North Americans practice bloodletting? Because they believed it gave them "the results they need[ed]". Efficacy cannot be established with reference to belief and this is what you appear to be advocating. The question which you are not concerning yourself with is "Does NLP actually provide the results UNAIDS needs?". It was this sort of question that eventually led to discontinuation of numerous medical practices that we now consider bizarre or barbaric. flavius 02:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I notice that, once again, HeadleyDown is talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time -- arguing that NLP is both ineffect AND that it is dangerous. Anything which is ineffective is, by definition, something which has NO effect. That which has no effect CANNOT BE DANGEROUS for the same reason that it cannot be beneficial -- because it does nothing. By characterizing NLP dangerous, HeadleyDown is actually admitting that it is NOT ineffective. To HeadlyDown, what makes NLP dangerous is that if most of the public gets wind of it, HeadleyDown will suffer a severe decrease in authority and billable hours, and hence, income. Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005

This is more of your dick head logic. How about car brakes that don't work, are they not dangerous? How about the fraudulent pharmaceutical manufacturer that sells ampoules of saline solution as adrenaline, are these not dangerous (this actually happened in India: a patient undergoing cardiac arrest was injected with saline solution -- twice -- with no effect, he of course died)? How about a an air traffic control radar system that doesn't work, isn't that dangerous? What about fake night-vision goggles, would these be safe? What about a pacemaker that was just an empty box, this would be safe would it? What about a geiger counter that made random clicking sounds, this would be safe to use would it? What about a radiation suit that was just made of plastic, would this not be dangerous? What about a vaccine for rabies that was inert, if this were used in a rabies prone region of the world would this not be dangerous? What about a parachute the size of tea towel, it would be ineffective, would it also be safe to use? What about a dry suit made out of rice paper, it would have no effect as far as insulation goes, would it safe to dive icy waters using it? What about a parachute that didn't deploy, would it be safe? How did you manage to equate ineffectivess with safety. There is no connection between the two. Something can be ineffective and safe eg. wearing a copper bracelet to relieve arthritis, ineffective and dangerous eg. injecting saline solution into a patient in cardiac arrest when you should be injecting adrenaline or getting a coffee enema to "detoxify" your liver, effective and safe eg. using an ice pack or elevating a limb to reduce swelling and effective and dangerous eg. using Rauwolfia serpentina to treat hypertension or Podophyllum peltatum to treat constipation. As I said earlier if you have a real BSc in EE from a real university then I'm Elvis Presley. flavius 03:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Well then, toots, better start strumming your guitar. Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005

I replied to HeadleyDown via private message. regards --Comaze 03:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed Comaze's sociopathic objections. HeadleyDown 04:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's let the evidence speak for itself... The "Loma" and NCAHF reference was originally added by HeadleyDown, [20]. I tried to correct it[21] so did Fuelwagon[22] a number of times, but HeadleyDown teamed up with DaveRight to blindly revert to keep this error in the article[23][24]. --Comaze 11:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello not Comaze. I discovered the Loma reference on a scholarly journal Proquest search database. It comes from a scholarly source, and it places NLP as a dubious therapy. I believe this does need more clarification within the article. The science and pseudoscience section can be expanded to explain this fact further. I am not responding to Comaze, but to the reasonable editors who want to see clarity in contrast with Comaz and his desire to obscure the facts. HeadleyDown 13:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I just checked proquest multiple databases. The Loma ref is there. It also places NLP with Dianetics. It seems the ref is indeed verifiable. DaveRight 04:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I have also found the Loma ref on the proquest database. It is a valid fact, and it does also have Dianetics as a companion in that category of dubious therapies. The term dubious is used by many authors to describe NLP, and therefore, your efforts at censorship are pointless. Bookmain 08:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I doubt it DaveRight/Bookmain/JPlogan/Camridge/HeadleyDown. If this Loma person existed you could give me a link to prove that he/she is notable. As far as I am concerned we can now removed all references to Loma 2001 and attributed statements. NCAHF can also be removed. --Comaze 01:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley. NLP is clearly supported by as many scientists as not. Even a cursory review of Medline shows this. There is no accord of any kind in the medical or scientific community. Notwithstanding this, it should be made clear in our article that therapuetic applications are only a small part of NLP. Hence criticisms thereof should be scaled down accordingly. NLP is now government accredited in many countries. And so too, NLP has a fascinating history full of controversy. NLP's history should be used to enrich our article, instead of trying to paint a black and white picture. Peace. Metta Bubble 02:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Metta Bubble, we have been through this ad nausium. Refer to the archives, and refer to overviews and reviews of the research. HeadleyDown 03:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Mettabubble, your own research is not allowed here. Your efforts seem to be geared to quadrupling the size of the article against the efforts of mediators, and neutrally minded editors. Your efforts also seem to be revealing a certain anti-NPOV agenda. I could be wrong, but I think you fancy NLP, or perhaps even Akulkis and Comaze. DaveRight 04:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Editors. Quackwatch is not only un-notable to the scientific community, but also unaccepted by government bodies and unaccepted by the wider public. There has not been a counter argument anywhere in this talk page or in the archives. Quackwatch and NCAHF was booed off the chiropractic article many times in our own wikipedia. The NCAHF's poor credibility is renowned: [[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/california_appeals_court_bludgeo.htm|California Appeals Court BLUDGEONS Quackbusters]]; [is a controversial organization]. There isn't a single notable source for stating that NCAHF or Quackwatch counts for anything. I have read our talk archives here and this issue is current and worthwhile. The "dubious therapy" references in our article are poorly quoted on two counts as the context has been changed and no longer refers to Mental Help; and the content has been changed as the citation doesn't even use the phrase we've used -- "dubious therapy". It is also poorly cited as quackwatch has a widely publicised poor credibility. All statements in the article saying NLP is a dubious therapy should be deleted or tamed into a context where we don't distort the original authors intention. Our talk archive includes many citations indicating NLP is a widely accepted and high repute field, including references on Medline [[25]] and the World Health Organisation for starters. If you insist the article needs to be so streamlined as to not represent these facts in its body, we should be not be representing the opposing views either. Peace. Metta Bubble 09:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Metta Bubble. I tried to follow the URLs you supplied and both appear dead.

[Correct link is here [[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/california_appeals_court_bludgeo.htm]] Akulkis 12:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC) ]

I don't understand the basis upon which you assert that "Quackwatch is not only un-notable to the scientific community, but also unaccepted by government bodies and unaccepted by the wider public". Who is the "wider public" and how did you assess their opinions vis-a-vis Quakwatch? Medical[26][27], scientific[28] and journalistic[29] sites refer their readers to Quackwatch (that it appears on the top of a Google search for "Quackwatch" indicates that it is widely referred to). Barrett received an honorary lifetime membership in the American Diabetic Association for his contribution to combatting quackery in the field of nutrition[30]. In STEPHEN BARRETT, M.D. (Plaintiff) v. DARLENE SHERRELL and PHILLIP HEGGEN (Defendants) the District Judge in his conclusion stated that "The court finds plaintiff's testimony as to his involvement in fighting what he calls health fraud and quackery to be credible...[b]ecause plaintiff has extensively and voluntarily involved himself in the public controversy of health fraud, the court concludes that he is a limited public figure."[31]. You say, "our talk archive includes many citations indicating NLP is a widely accepted and high repute field, including references on Medline". I've done a search on both Medline and PsycInfo and most of the research papers fall on the side of anti-NLP and those papers that do conclude in favour of NLP have been subsequently shown to be invalidated by various methodological defects. This matter has been gone over before -- check the archives, you will find that I list all of the Medline papers. I also did the same search on PsycInfo but decided not to publish the larger list because it was distracting some of the pro-NLP editors like GregA. NLP is neither "widely accepted" or of "high repute". It is on the margins of some fields, off the page on most and perceived by notable psychologists, linguists and neurologists to be pseudoscience, junk science, New Age, fraudulent and a sham (see references in article). Chiropractic is in the same category as NLP -- it is a form of shamanistic ritual. I don't think anyone -- other than other chiropractors -- cares what chiropractors think, they are pseudoscientist/shamans. flavius 02:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Read this and weep, Flavius/Camridge/HeadleyDown/DaveRight....

Calm down Kookla. Since we all one person only one of us need read it ;-) flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

QUACKWATCH is now officially discredited.

Kookla, I read NATIONAL COUNCIL AGAINST HEALTH FRAUD, INC. v. KING BIO PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.; FRANK J. KING, JR.; and DOES 1-50[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/california_superior_court_judge_.htm] and the appellate court ruling[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/kingbioappeal.htm] and you are misprepresnting the courts finds. Neither proceeding makes a general judgement against the NCAHF. How could it? That was never at issue. The remarks regarding the credibility of Messrs Sampson and Barrett relate specifically to their capacity as expert witnesses on behalf of the plaintiff viz. NCAFH given their close affiliation with said organisation and unambiguous hostility towards homeopathy. Neither judgement relates to the NCAHF or Barrett in general. flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Barrett has lost his license, and is under criminal prosecution for the activities carried out under the auspices of Quackwatch. He, and others in the organization have been INDICTED on the following charges:

Kookla, you made this up. I have seen no evience that Barrett lost his license and as usual you have failed to present any. flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

De-licensed MD Stephen Barrett (and several of his henchmen) got sued last Monday, July 23, 2001 in Alameda Superior Court in California. The quackbusters were charged, among other things, with Racketeering (RICO), Violation of Civil Rights, Abuse of Process, and Malicious Prosecution.

[[http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/smokingoutpaymasters.htm]]

Kookla, you are paraphrasing an entirely unsubstantiated opinion piece. Where are the details of this alleged indictment? flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

....so, that pretty much wraps up Quackwatch, and all Barret references for lack of credibility.

Kookla, it does no such thing. NATIONAL COUNCIL AGAINST HEALTH FRAUD, INC. v. KING BIO PHARMACEUTICALS, INC was poorly executed (by the plaintiff's laywers) and ambitious litigation that was aimed at reversing the burdern of proof for claims of false advertising in California. It failed and it was still-born. The NCAHF should have had King Bio's homeopathic remedies independently tested and they should have used expert testimony outside of the NCAHF -- there is no shortage of it. The case has no wider significance in relation to NCAHF or Barrett. If you disagree show me where in the judgements it states otherwise. Don't just rant and rave like you've been doing in your 25,000+ Usenet posts and don't tell me about your imaginary military career or imaginary BSE where you studied thermodynamics even though EE and CSE syllabi don't include thermodynamics (because it's completely irrelevant). Calm yourself -- using NLP if you must -- and with reference to the case documents show me how I'm wrong. flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

2 Also, regarding the associated organization, NCAHF -- they were taken over by Barrett, and their website has been taken down.

Kookla you are hallucinating. Click here [32]. Note that it says "Most recent update: December 21, 2005" flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

3. Barrett sued the guy who runs www.quackpotwatch.com for defamation and libel in Pennsylvania court (Barrett's home state). The judge ruled that since the writings about Barrett in Quackpotwatch were true, and therefore failed the legal test for both defamation and libel. Therefore, Quackpotwatch IS a credible source concerning Barret -- so says a judge Pennsylvania who was asked to rule ON THE SPECIFIC ISSUE of whether Quackpotwatch is credible in regards to the content regarding Barrett. So solly! Akulkis 13:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Kookla, take your Diazepam and apply a ice pack to your heated brow. The article that you reference below states that "Barrett, a long-time nemesis of chiropractic, filed the lawsuit because of Koren’s publication that Barrett was ‘licensed’ and in trouble because of a $10 million lawsuit and because Barrett was called a ‘Quackpot’." It wasn't the case that Koren stated that Barrett is the devil incarnate and resorting to the defence of truth Koren prevailed. You can only conclude about Barrett that which Koren defended in the libel case. Also, Kookla for your edification, libel and slander are both types of defamation. flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

A similar source is here: canlyme.com.

Perhaps you should read it again. flavius 05:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

---

At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

The most damming testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA).

---

Nonwithstanding further evidence it seems indeed that Dr. Barrett, quackwatch and NCAHF are disputable as sources for a serious evaluation of NLP. So how do we deal we this? We could either add to the Barrett-sources that they must be considered unreliable ( analogous to the Perl-dianetics-promoter-gig ),with links to the court findings, or discard sources related to him as unreliable and get rid of them. Any further ideas how to resolve this? Blauregen 14:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Blauregen, Aaron 'Kookla' Kuklis' "evidence" is bluster. No court case has estblished what you are concluding, namely that "quackwatch and NCAHF are disputable as sources for a serious evaluation of NLP". flavius 05:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Barrett seemingly provided expert testimony as a psychiatrist, without being actually qualified to do so. Furthermore it seems he presented as a legal expert, without having any legal training. This strongly indicates a degree of dishonesty that disqualifies him as a credible scientific source. Furthermore it seems to me that Dr. Barrett was publicly criticed in his capacity as a 'debunker' and filed defamation suits against his critics, which so far are either still open or already refuted. I think this qualifies as disputable. Blauregen 08:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

There is strong evidence against your proposal, Blauregen. The website is still in existence, Barrett is still practicing and publishing, and your links do not work. It is still in play. Plus, even if your erroneous assertions were true, the view is corroborated. Sorry, you are the same as Comaze. You now have a history of unreasonable pressure to delete facts. HeadleyDown 15:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Interresting the link works here. That the site is online and that Barrett may or not continue to publish or to practice litigations has no influence on his credibility though. And i am afraid his credibility is heavily damaged, which disqualifies him as a reputable source. Alas, it seems we have another point for mediation then. That you are sorry for your opinion about me is duely noted. Blauregen 16:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

How can Barret be "still practicing" when he's been retired for over a decade??? CAUGHT YOU IN YET ANOTHER GODDAMNED FUCKING LIE!!!! -Kookla bluster segment (a)

Dear, dear. Nowhere did Hedley say that Barrett is practicing as a psychiatrist. Barrett is continuing to practice as a debunker/consumer advocate/web master/author/sceptic. The remark was a response to your assertion that Barrett and Quakwatch had been shutdown. flavius 05:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

And yes, Headley, the links DO work....I copy/paste-ed the link I posted directly out of the URL address bar, and checked Blauregen's just out of curiousity. As far as Barrett's credibility... why would FEDERAL PROSECUTORS have dragged his sorry ass into court and hit him with multiple felony counts SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO TO TELLING LIES AND GIVING FALSE TESIMONY against those in the medical field who are not aligned with him. -Kookla bluster segment (b)

If you want this allegation to be taken seriously (and even if it were true it remains an allegation until he has his day in court) then you'll need to provide substantiation. Give us the details of the prosecution so that one one us can attempt to retrieve the court documents. flavius 05:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Why would a FEDERAL PROSECUTING ATTORNEY waste his time, and his staff's time on a guy who is sooooooooooooooo credible? Face it, Headley, you've been grasping at straws for months now, and, one by one, they are giving way to truth when subjected to close scrutiny. Akulkis 16:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC) -Kookla bluster segment (c)

You tell us Kookla why would they? We'll just accept what you assert as Truth and disregard your crazed Usenet postings and give you a forum to espouse your demented Worldview, abuse everyone that dares ask for substantiation from you and refuses to accept your acedotes about (drill sergeants, picking up women, engineering,..., everything?) as evidence. flavius 05:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Can we tone down the accusations --- that's everyone. Ok, I've removed the Loma(2001) references and NCAHF. We could probably find less controversial references to Barrett. --Comaze 22:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I must point out that the Church of Scientology has the same litigous strategy against those wishing to point out their misdeeds. The proclamations of Akulkis, Blauregen, Comaze and Metta Bubble, seem only to indicate that they are part of a the NLP cult, and are similarly willing to misquote court findings. I will restore the fact appropriately. Camridge 05:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I must point out that the defamation suits against almost 40 people across the country - assuming the truthfulness of my source - were apparently filed by Dr. Barrett, and seemingly all either refuted or still in process. Such an amount of litigation certainly bears reminders to the purported strategy of the church of scientology, but i assure you that i do not plan to side with Dr. Barret.Blauregen 08:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Blauregen. Barrett has not been discredited specifically in his relation to debunking NLP. Also, Barrett does not equal the organizations he works with. As the Barrett ref is strongly supported by scientific judgments, and questioned only by the litigation of pseudoscientists, Barrett (and organisations he works for) gets weight. Science gets weight over pseudoscience according to NPOV policy. Camridge 08:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Camridge. Barrett has not been discredited specifically but in general as apparently dishonest and not qualified to provide expertise as stated above. Blauregen 09:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Questions about article

I tried to read this article again. I have a few questions. 1) Is NLP useful? 2) Can you make NLP useful? 3) Is NLP dangerous? 4) Can you make NLP not dangerous? 5) If NLP is unscientific, is there any value studying and researching into NLP? --RichardCLeen 21:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Richard. I think the question should be - what does the weight of independent science think of these questions, and then what do NLPers think. So far the questions have been answered on the article, although science needs more weight than is been represented so far. HeadleyDown 03:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to ask whether NLP is so dangerous that it should be banned? --RichardCLeen 12:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh I see. No, NLP is considered potentially dangerous, together with primal scream therapy, and other subjects. It is also considered potentially dangerous in its association with cult activities and LGATS. On of the dangers is that it gives people status without expertise. One case is of LGAT activities of NLP that involve activities that put them into a hyperventilation situation. Another is the use of pseudoscience and breathing, nutrition, "cleansing" and the use of extreme confrontation a la Perls/Farrelly/Bandler/PaulMckenna where litigation has ensued. Clinical psychologists do not want this kind of dubious and potentially traumatic "therapy" to be used within their profession. Your question is totally reasonable. Regards HeadleyDown 12:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

"Potentially dangerous" is a canard. "Potentially" means "has not been shown to be". By comparison, water is considered to be not merely potentially dangerous, but ACTUALLY dangerous (water poisoning, steam burns, drowning, avalanches, blunt-object-trauma caused by falling ice, etc.). Likewise, oxygen is dangerous.

Dear, dear. I think you need a Valium and lie down and an education Akulkis. flavius 01:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Same old routine -- can't defeat the argument, so attack the person presenting it. By doing so, you've pretty much admitted that you've LOST the argument, as you have no factual counter-argument to respond with, and can only resort to namecalling. It must suck being you, being unable to beat someone who you claim to be both uneducated and stupid. You remind me of the Democrats...who, on one hand, contend that George Bush is a drunken retard, and then, within the same breath, decry how horribly he's run circles around them in every single policy debate. Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005

Kookla, I have addressed your vestigial argument and there I chose to maintain a long-practiced WWW tradition of mocking you and having fun at your expense. I can do both as I'll demonstrate below. "It must suck" having to force the force plurarlistic democracy through the artificial binary sieve of Democrat vs. Republican. "It must suck" having to arrogate credit to yourself for something which you haven't accomplished (or at least only acomplished in your aberrant private universe). flavius 06:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I also notice that, once again, HeadleyDown is talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time -- arguing that NLP is both ineffect AND that it is dangerous. Anything which is ineffective is, by definition, something which has NO effect. That which has no effect CANNOT BE DANGEROUS for the same reason that it cannot be beneficial -- because it does nothing. By characterizing NLP dangerous, HeadleyDown is actually admitting that it is NOT ineffective. To HeadlyDown, what makes NLP dangerous is that if most of the public gets wind of it, HeadleyDown will suffer a severe decrease in authority and billable hours, and hence, income. Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005

Aaron, I'll give you a counter-example that shows the error in your logic. What if a patient with an undiagnosed brain tumour (a low-grade malignant glioma) that's in its early stages presents to a homeopath with headaches that are worse in the morning but improve during the course of the day, vomitting and nausea, drowsiness and minor cognitive impairment. The homeopath prescribes what is basically distilled water. The patient continues with the homeopathic "treatment" for eight weeks. The patient's symptoms worsen rather than improve since the glioma has grown -- the patient now also reports blurred vision and her speech has started to slur. Homeopathic remedies are inert -- they are either lactose tablets or distilled water -- yet given certain circumstances they can be very dangerous. flavius 01:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously, you are completely UNAWARE of the medical destinction between causing harm, and ineffective treatment which allows the subject's condition to worsen. The second is NOT regarded as causing harm -- it is merely INEFFECTIVE ... i.e. it is not a treatment which benefits. Ineffective and harmful are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE terms.

Here's an example, since you seem unable to grasp the difference

Carbon monoxide is poisonous to mammals -- breathing it CAUSES HARM.

In contrast, Carbon dioxide is NOT poisonous to mammals. While a pure-carbon-dioxide atmosphere does not provide the respiratory system what it requires (oxygen) NEITHER DOES IT HARM THE ORGANISM... if one is

stuck in a pure-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere for 60 seconds, it will be uncomfortable, but there is no lasting damage....as soon as oxygen is re-introduced into the lungs, the organism can resume as if nothing happened. This is NOT true for carbon monoxide. This is why carbon monoxide is dangerous, and carbon dioxide is not.

Along the same lines, while not doing anything, homeopathic treatment CAN NOT interfere with other medical treatment, because it's nothing but water. That which does nothing CAN NOT CAUSE HARM.

Similarly, if you argue that NLP is inneffective, then you are arguing that it does nothing, and if it does nothing, THEN IT CAN NOT CAUSE HARM.

So, make a choice..is it ineffective, or harmful. IT CAN NOT BE BOTH.

Your harmless/ineffective dichotomy is false. It is nothing more than artifice. You failed to respond to my numerous counter-examples and -- in prototypical Kook fashion -- you then accused me of not providing a counter-argument. Your conceptualisation of harmless/ineffective rules out the possibility of deception causing harm -- which is a patently false notion. If I sell you an AtroPen Auto Injector that contains distilled water instead of atropine sulfate and you use your Injector after exposure to a nerve agent and subsequently die have I not done you harm? You will most likely reply the nerve agent killed you and not the Injector. Yes, in toxicological terms that is the case but that is the end of the matter. Your decision to place yourself in a situation where you could be exposed to a nerve agent was at least partially based on subjective mitigation of risk exposure based upon having a ready treatment for nerve agent poisoning. If you didn't have an atropine injector you may have decided not engage in a particular behaviour, you may have stayed in your chemical suit. Similarly, if I tell you that it is safe to walk over the dried leaves when the dried leaves conceal a pit filled with punji sticks and you subsequently fall into the pit and bleed to death, have I not done you harm? Will you argue that it was the punji sticks that killed you and I bear no responsibility? Deliberately providing ineffective treatment to an ill person the consequences of which the person's condition worsens is deemed to be causing harm both in law and according to medical practice guidelines (in my locale and I conjecture your's also)-- it would be deemd gross negligence and if the person died it would be deemed manslughter. Thus if you present to an oncologist with testicular cancer (assuming you have balls) and he is cognizant of your malignant tumour but send you home and tells you not to worry about the lump and you later die, the doctor would be considered to be grossly negligent and would most likely be charged with manslaughter. You are legally and ethically more culpabale if you administer fake treatment than if you merely ignore the person or refuse treatment because you are influencing the person to cease seeking medical attention by your administration of fake medicine. Your conceptualisation would make many types of manslaughter impossible as well as eliminating many torts. Something (or someone) that "does nothing" can certainly cause harm, if not directly, by influencing a course of action -- that otherwise wouldn't have been taken -- that was intended to ameliorate or avoid the harm but instead increased the harm. You harmless/ineffective dichotomy is inconsistent with common law (criminal and civil), with conventional notions of morality and culpability and with conventional notions of causality. Your argument is a kind of sophistry. Using your pseudologic the legal notion of culpability can be eliminated: John Doe didn't kill Mr Victim it was the bullet that that killed him; the supermarket's management didn't cause the paraplegia of Mrs Victim when she slipped on the leaking cooking oil it was due to the floor and the oil; Dr Incompetent's loss of Ms Victims pap smear results didn't cause her to develop cervical cancer and die it was the cancer that killed her; Mr Fakepharmaceutical didn't cause the death of hundreds due to antiobiotic resistant tuberculosis by selling quarter dose antibiotics as full dose it was the bacillus that killed them. Hey presto, culpability disappears! No choice between effective/harmful and ineffective/harmless is needed because it's a false dichotomy. As I explained earlier -- which you conveniently ignored -- effectiveness and harm are independent of each other. Something can be be both ineffective and harmful, a fortiori somethings harfulness can be a consequence of its ineffectiveness. When you accept distilled water as homeopathic treatment for cancer you haven't merely obtained distilled water from the homeopath -- you have obtained information in either implicit or explicit form. This information -- which is insepareble from the homeopathic remedy -- will cause you to alter your behavior such that you don't obtain a psysician's examination, you don't then obtain an oncologists examination, you don't undergo surgery...and eventually you may die. NLP is both ineffective and harmful for many reasons: (a) many neurological disorders present as mental illness, whether they admit it or not NLP clinicians do engage in a dignostic process. The misdiagnosis of a neurological disorder can not only perpetuate the patients suffering but it may allow the illness to progress possibly beyond conventional help; (b) many mental illnesses have a biological origin (eg. post-natal depression) so in these cases no amount of reframing, swishing, anchoring, provocation, voodoo will help, the patient in these cases is being abused by the NLPer; (c) there is no evidence in the form of single-blind, randomised, placebo controlled research -- let alone clinical trials -- that demonstrates th effectiveness of NLP techniques as treatments for mental illness. Subjecting suffering people to NLP (which hasn't been demonstrated to be more effective than placebo or even doing nothing) and charging them is doubly unethical; (d) charging people thousands of dollars for useless NLP tuition and certification robs people of other opportunities -- costly and useless NLP training has an opportunity cost in terms of time and money (I have first-hand experience of this); (e) NLP is a part of a tradition that is antithetical to science and technology -- which on balance have provided much more good than bad -- hence anything that denigrates science and technology and seeks to suppplant it with superstition is societally and culturally harmful. NLP is yet another mite gnawing on the body of Western civilisation; (e) NLP fosters guru worship, this is deindividuating and disempowering; (f) NLP promotes irrationalism, the over-valuation of subjective experience, muddle-headed thinking, obfuscation, obscurantism and even narcissism this is all instrinsically bad but it also dovetails into New Age and Magick which are themselves blights on Western civilisation. flavius 07:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius. I will do my best to distil your argument down to a line or two to help clearly explain the scholarly views of those scientists/experts in the article. Camridge 08:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's some more examples for your to ponder Aaron. Any device or substance marketed as being curative of cancer which has no therapeutic effect is dangerous. How about a device which is marketed as being able to predict natural disasters but is nothing more than an aluminium box with quartz crystals in it. Surely this would be a dangerous device for anyone that based their decision to evacuate their place of residence based on its "vibrations". How about the once popular Philipino psychic surgeons that used $2 false thumbs to conceal chicken entrails that they produced as psychically excised "tumours". Surely for someone with a malignant cancer "psychic surgery" would be dangerous. Thinking isn't one of your strong points is it Mr Fake Electrical Engineer? You're just an abusive, big-mouthed, small-minded, uneducated punk. flavius 02:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. In our system, something marketed as curative which has no effect is ineffective. To be castigated as "dangerous" it must make the condition WORSE than if the subject was not treated with it. That is the standard used law, and is a very BIG distinction in things such as medical malpractice cases and medical liability cases. Having no beneficial effect is VERY different from CAUSING harm, both logically and legally. As for me supposedly being an abusive, big-mouthed, small-minded, uneducated punk ... one, i never claimed to be an Electrical Engineer... I have a BSE, not BSEE, your moron. You can't even fucking read. And since when do Big-10 universities graduate non-athletes from their engineering schools without making sure that the student HAS been educated? You're just bitter because I'm whipping your ass in the logic department (let alone the fact that I've been calling attention to all of the blatant lies that you and your cohorts have inserted into the page)

See my lengthy response above. Your understanding of law and morality is as aberrant as your understanding of the concept of evidence. The legal (and moral) notion of negligence -- which is understood as a failure to exercise due care or the omission of some behaviour -- is an obvious response to your bluster. See above for a more detailed coverage of the matter. There's no point arguing about whether you have a BA, BS, BE or whatever -- it is apparent from the content of your voluminous posting history that you have no higher-learning. You're an obnoxious, opinionated, blustering, paranoid, ignoramus that has never argued (ie. engaged in rational discourse) ever. Your posts here and throughout the WWW are just blather. A person can only be beaten at chess if they (a) agree to play a game of chess; and (b) abide by the rules of the game. You steadfastly refuse to answer the actual criticisms made against your hate-filled verbiage. Your paranoid little mind instead invents simulacra of the criticisms that you pour scorn and vitriol over and then proceed to rejoice in a bizarre ritual paper-thin self-affirmation. I've never been classified as a Kook nor have I been mocked by by a multitude of special interest groups. That distinction is solely yours and it's highly unlikely that everyone that tells you your're a dickhead nutcase is a Marxist isn't it? This perverse attitude is a feature of your paranoid worldview ("everyone except me is stupid/Marxist/evil etc"). You are as far removed from logic as all the other Kooks on the WWW, you wouldn't recognise it if you encountered it (you in fact haven't). The only thing that you're whipping is the saliva running out the side of your rabid, frothy mouth. Don't start jerking off just yet. Put your cock back in your pants and answer my arguments concerning your false dichotomy re ineffective/harmless (not a simulacra, but the actual argument) and its inconsistency with law, morality and everyday notions of causality. What you've been consistently "calling attention to" is your psychopathology. Not content with your 25,000+ insane posts you chosen to augment your "corpus" via Wikipedia. You've become an artist of sorts, a performance artist smearing your virtual excrement on the virtual walls of the WWW with designs which you believe warrant your recognition and celebration as a genius. When the public tells you "it's just shit" you erupt into a fit of moral indignation and spew pages of vitriol and scorn mixed with compensatory self-affirmation (which is entirely irrelevant and its irrelevance betrays its true function: "I'm in the army", "I'm an engineer", "I'm working on a patent" blah blah blah). Even if it were true how is it relevant and who gives a toss? Have you found anyone that has recognised you as a genius that isn't himself/herself mad (like you)? Has anyone proclaimed your shitty glyphs works of art? flavius 08:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Cult characteristics

The online referenced sources Tippet, Singer, Eisner, Novopashin seem to agree that methods found in NLP are used effectively in various cultlike groups. Shupe & Darnell list NLP in a glossary without referencing it as a cult. None of them refers to NLP as a cult though, and using principles and methods from a discipline does not create equality to it. The contributors may have misread this. Should the sources that aren't available online indeed classify NLP as a cultlike movement it may be helpful to clarify this. Blauregen 12:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I've covered this before, but there are some notable counter-examples to the claim that NLP is used by cults. Prof. Charles Figley (Florida State University Traumatology) states that Steven Hassan uses method similar to VK/D and change personal history to help people recover from cult mind control (Figley, Brief Treatments for the Traumatized: A Project of the Green Cross Foundation 2002 p.96). Hassan (1988) himself writes that he studies the original models of NLP (Erickson, Perls, Satir) to help him build a model of how people enter and exit cults successfully. Hassan did some training with Grinder and Bandler in 1980, and actually moved to Santa Cruz to learn directly from John Grinder. He finished this training early to get married and persue a career at helping people leave and recover from cults. Since that time Hassan has developed his own model, how much of his current work is based on NLP is unknown. --Comaze 00:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Comaze, it is an unknown. You are not here to invent facts. HeadleyDown 03:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your little 1988 (pre-debunking) quote is not at all a counter example. If anything it verifies that NLP has cult characteristics. DaveRight 04:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

but we can quote Figley (2000) verbatim. Figley's reputation and tenureship is beyond refute. AND, Hassan latest book (2000) also supports that argument that NLP can be used for cult entry or exit. The use depends entirely on the ethics of the practitioner. --Comaze 04:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Blauregen. To my knowledge and notes, there is a significant body of scientists who state NLP is a cult or cult-like. Novopashin regards NLP as a psycho-cult, Singer has explained further that NLP is used by mild and destructive cults, and they do not say that NLP is effective. Singer reiterates that NLP is ineffective. Please feel free to clarify this by rigorous searches of the literature. You will find that there is indeed a significant view that NLP is a cult. Regards HeadleyDown 12:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello HeadleyDown. Correction partly taken. Sources Tippet, Singer, Eisner, Novopashin seem to agree that methods found in NLP are used regardless of effectivity in various cultlike groups then. Even Novopashin classes NLP in the only referenced source (.. We are also talking about the so-called "psychocults," the ones that have sect-tinged pseudo-psychological training, like "Life Spring," "Violet," neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) groups... as a pseudo-psychological training, not as a cult in itself. The notion that according to User:HeadleyDown a significant but unreferenced body of scientists state that NLP is a cult, without further references is a opinion of HeadleyDown, and hardly bears the so often cited 'weight of science'. For the sake of clarification there should be either a supporting source, or the paragraph should be rephrased to reflect the actual stance of the cited sources.Blauregen 01:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Blauregen. As you know there is more to the article than what you have cited. You are working against brevity on this article. The source states "amoral psychocult". If you wish to post pseudo-psychological training and so on, you will actually do very little good for your agenda. It still looks like a cult. More specifically a psychocult. And there are further negative points that can be posted. I cannot see how you can benefit any editor, either the NLP zealots, or the editors who are trying to get this article cleaned up and in concise shape. HeadleyDown 02:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi HeadleyDown. The cited statement however is the only one in the source that references NLP at all, and in this context it isn't referenced as a cult. Novopashin does not mention a specific cult or a recognizable group based on NLP as a view of life, but refers to 'nlp groups' in the sense of groups that have a 'sect-tinged pseudo-psychological training'. Wether this is a correct characterisation of NLP is as irrelevant for the question wether your sources support your assertion, as i how it 'looks to you', or what effects it will have on my supposed 'agenda'. Again. Please either rephrase the section - if you deem it needed at all - or reference an actual source that supports the notion that NLP is a psychocult. Blauregen 05:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

"Significant" being defined as "anyone who agrees with HeadleyDown -- no matter how much conflict of interest exists between their statements and their other professional and academic work."

Hello editors. Eisner's (notable?) opinions have been distorted in our article. Should they be removed? We say he thinks NLP is a cult, but in fact he makes no such assertion. On p.158 Eisner says, "Both Sharpley and Elich et al. conclude that NLP is akin to a cult ..." So he's merely citing someone else? Right. Furthermore, a citability issue. Eisner's speciality is law and ethics and he runs a malpractice law firm suing psychotherapists from any and all fields. He makes it clear he would have sued Freud if given the chance. I think we should be really hesitant to use him as an authority on any kind of therapeutic opinion. Peace Metta Bubble 02:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Metta Bubble. Eisner is a fully qualified clinical psychotherapist. He also has the expertise to write books about therapy and conduct legal cases agains malpractice as an expert in psychotherapy. He successfuly holds two professional roles. He also refers to empirical science throughout his literature, and supports the view that NLP is a cult. To remove his view would be to remove clarification. HeadleyDown 03:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Meta Bubble. Some due dilligence on your part would be useful. A Google search would have revealed that Eisner has a doctorate in psychology, is a licensed psychologist and has a JD and practices law [33]. Eisner is not only citable he is eminently citable. flavius 04:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again "bordering-uncivil" editors. Eisner does not support the clinical view that NLP is a cult. This is a distortion of fact. Eisner is not citable and he is not an eminent psychotherapist. What's more is that a psychotherapeutic viewpoint (PSYCHO-POV?) has nothing to do with an intelligent approach to critiquing NLP. The point again is our single quote for Eisners opinion (Eisner 2000, p.158), "Both Sharpley and Elich et al. conclude that NLP is akin to a cult ..." The fact is Eisner does not say NLP is a cult. Read that quote again. We have used a completely distorted version of Esiner's opinion and this in unacceptable for an encyclopedia. Peace. Metta Bubble 07:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I also have a copy of Eisner here, Meta Bubble, and your assessment is as erroneous as your last statement that Flavius dealt with. Compared to the views of NLP authors, Eisner has enormous credibility. The whole paragraph (that you decided to ommit from quoting here) positively screams that Eisner views NLP's excuses and failure to research as cult like. This corroborates all the other scientific views that NLP is a cult. Eisner (PhD Psych and qual psych) goes further, stating that NLP is psychopablum, that the various claims of NLPers are grossly misleading, and that the few confirming studies that NLP has drawn upon are fatally flawed. This corroborates Lilienfeld, Sharpley and Beyerstein, who know good research when they see it, and state that supporting NLP studies can be explained using other factors than NLP (thus those few supporting studies are flawed). He states that what remains are guru and placebo effects (that would be weeded out using controlled studies). He says that NLP authors present a mystical and magical new theory for positive expectations, but only anecdotes are offered. The factors that Eisner states are all factors showing cult characteristics. You are reading far too selectively, and similar to FT2 and all the other NLP fans, you are trying your best to remove verified facts. You are onto a non starter. Sorry, I also suspect you are a sockpuppet/meatpuppet. Bookmain 08:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Direct quote from Steven Hassan (p.33 Combating cult mind control, 1988) "[Hassan] studied the foundational models of NLP (Bateson, Satir, Perls). This enabled him to create a model of how people successfully enter and exit from cult mind control ." --Comaze 04:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a quote from Hassan's new book (2000) called 'Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves'... "Although I am aware of several cult leaders specifically studying Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), I suspect that most cult groups use informal hypnotic techniques to induce trance states. They tend to use what are called "naturalistic" hypnotic techniques. Practicing meditation to shut down thinking, chanting a phrase repetitively for hours, or reciting affirmations are all powerful ways to promote spiritual growth. But they can also be used unethically, as methods for mind control indoctrination." [34] --Comaze 06:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh great. So now we need a section on NLP's uses for exiting cults? This is too funny. Let's just ditch the cult section. It's borderline outside of wikipedia policy anyway. It's certainly against guidelines. Peace. Metta Bubble 07:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Metta Bubble. I agree there. It should be either ditched completely or, should it have any educational value, be made into a distinct article. It certainly would help the brevity of the core article. Blauregen 01:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Blauregen. NLP is a fringe practice that requires no more than an article. The view of NLP as a cult is considerable, especially as there are factually existing NLP cults on cult lists. Your desire to delete seems to derive from a view-restricting anti-NPOV agenda. HeadleyDown 02:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown. It seems to ignite enough controversy to warrant a deeper discussion even in an encyclopedia. Since we already have distinct articles on various methods and assumptions associated with NLP (see: [35]), an additional article on the usage of NLP in connection with quasi-religious groups seems only appropriate. This would help the brevity of the core article, since we could replace this section with a link to a more concise discussion of this aspect. As for your 'factually existing NLP cults': I am aware that NLP seems to be used in various quasi-religious groups, but i am not aware of any quasi-religious group that actually has NLP as a central part of their view of life. Could you please elaborate what entries on what cult list you are referring to? Blauregen 05:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I was just trying to point out that it can be used by both. Some of the editors do not understand the different between a technology and its uses. The ethical or unethical use of NLP is entirely in the hands of the practitioner. --Comaze 00:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi All. I noticed that the source [36] in section cult characteristics lists only one organisation with the Letters 'N','L' and 'P' in this order. The source seems to be largely a list of alleged 'totalitarian sects'. A google search for NLP Rekaunt did not reveal any clarifying information, so i can't decide wether this source is relevant for the article at all. After all wikipedia alone lists 6 articles as a disambiguation for the abbreviation 'NLP'. Could someone who is fluent in the language of the document please verify wether this organisation is in any way connected to neuro-linguistic programming at all? Thanks in advance. Blauregen 11:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Undue pressure to delete cited facts

Hello all. This article has been supported by months of research by hard working professional researchers. A great deal of extra research was provided because certain NLP promoters demanded inordinate amounts of further evidence. That was provided, and NLP promoters overreated by adding extreme confusion and excuse to the article. This led to a very large article. The effort is to bring the article to a size that is representitive of NLP (a fringe subject that does not deserve more than an article of explanation). This also means that some of the refs have been cut. Just because a view only has one or two references supporting it, that does not mean that those are the only two people in the universe supporting the view. The views of scientists and experts represented in this article are generally cross-corroborating. I, and others who have edited here for a while, have a large collection of evidence to draw upon for supporting the views presented. There is no point in attacking views of scientists and similar experts just because only a few refs support those views. Science gets weight. Rather than waste everybody's time demanding extra explanations, just go and look up the reasoning for the view, learn it, accept it and go and do something useful. If you are here simply to cause trouble, have tantrums, and remove cited facts, just go away and don't come back. That includes you Comaze and Akulkis. HeadleyDown 08:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

It's worth removing all unnotable sources and misrepresented citations. See my reply in the on-topic Quackwatch section above. Peace. --Metta Bubble 11:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Metta Bubble. The focus should not be on removing facts. All views should be represented here in due sequence of priority. The views of scientists and significant experts and bodies should be verified and citations provided. If NLP fanatics will stop trying to remove those views perhaps life would be simpler. Right now it seems that in order for the views to be supported, the file size of the article will have to grow. Are you seeking concise editing, or fussy overzealous verification? Regards HeadleyDown 13:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I find it VERY interesting that HeadleyDown insists on the inclusion of disputed anti-NLP references, etc. but at the same time, anything which is NOT anti-NLP which is disputed, he insists must be removed. You're still behaving like hypocrite, and as a person who thinks that this page should personally belong to himself. There are many things which I find distasteful on this page, but they are properly phrase ("it is the opinion of X that Y") as composed to much of what Headley writes ("...X is Z" without acknowledging that the opinion is not universally supported, nor acknowledging that many of the detractors have conflict-of-interest problems with respect to NLP, and especially widespread public understanding of it, and the methods, especially communications and propagands methods, which have developed from it.). Furthermore, it is interesting that he hides behind a pseudonym, especially since even non-experts such as myself have caught him perpetrating numerous lies on this page. At this point, I believe that the only remedy is some method of revoking his editing privileges on the NLP page until such time that he demonstrates the ability to behave in some way other than a religious fanatic Akulkis Sun Dec 18 20:49:23 UTC 2005

Aaron. Congratulations! I didn't know that someone that had won "Usenet Kook of the Month" twice (December 1999 and January 2000) [37] and has been immortalised on "The Official Alt.Usenet.Kooks Funny Farm" was esteeming us with his presence. Bravo! flavius 04:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yep...The name "Kook Award" best describes those who bestow it, not those who win it. The Kooks who do this each month target anyone who conspicously violated Political Correctness....because that's the one thing in common with ALL of those who have been named as "Kook of the month"...their supposed kookiness is nothing more than not being rabid Marxists like those Kooks who give out their "award"

So you perceive yourself as hero fighting against PC, maligned by Marxists. It's the announcement of delusional self-concepts like this that has earnt you the two awards. Many of the Kooks have serious mental illness (eg. George Hammond is schizophrenic) and exhibit no insight into their behaviour. Your 25,000+ Usenet posts -- disregarding their content -- are prima facie evidence of mental disorder. Does that volume of posting not strike you as aberrant or at least unusual? An examination of your posts content confirms the prima facie impression and demonstrates the extent of your pathology. Anyone that disputes your foundationless assertions you label "Marxist", "Communist", "Liberal", "Democrat", "Liar", "Corrupt Psychologist" and other such epithets. This labelling is yet another feature of your paranoid worldview. A paranoid worldview has a form of sustaining logic and this categorisation and exclusion of opinion based on simplistic schemata provides part of this sustaining logic. You know the Truth about psychology, politics, ESP, UFOs, aliens, sceptics, the economy and anyone that disagrees with you has a hidden subversive agenda that you will expose. Your critics must have an evil ulterior motive since you are telling the Truth. You're telling the Truth therefore any contrary opinion must -- by logical implication -- be a lie. The task then becomes one of uncovering the motivations for the lie. Ready explanations are to be found for the lie in modern day "bogey man" mythologies popular in North American culture: Communists, Marxists, Liberals, Demoncrats, Evil Psychologists and Psychiatrists etc. Aaron, you and your paranoia are banal and trite. Your're a prototypical WWW Kook. If you were experiencing your mental disorder in a time before the WWW you have spent your time penning and sending letters to TV stations, newspapers and members of legislatures (like the nutcases of yore). flavius 13:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I percieve myself as a person who simply speaks the truth. If you call that heroic, then more power to ya! As for 25,000+ posts...yes, at one point, I realized that I would encounter more people...such as you....who would attempt to mine my postings for ....who the fuck knows what....and I decided that if a few postings are good, then thousands upon thousands of postings would be even better. And by the way, Flavious, when have I called you a Marxist, Communist, Liberal, or (gasp) Democrat???? as to ESP... I don't know shit about it... it might be possible, but probably isn't. UFO's...who the fuck knows...I've seen no credible evidence. Aliens? See UFOs. Sceptics...*I* am a skeptic (see previous topics)....I see no need to continue .. again, you're failing to provide arguments of substance in favor of ad hominem attacks. As for Psychologists and Psychiatrists...the American public schools are a perfect example of what happens when you allow these (non-theistic) religious fanatics any significant measure of influence on policy and procedure. Akulkis 04:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron, your apparent lack of insight into your behaviour is troubling. In the same paragraph that you castigate me for "ad hominem attacks" (I've already explained why this is the wrong use of Ad Hominem) you commit the fallacy Ad Hominem in relation to psychologists and psychiatrists. You claim to be a carrier of "the truth" yet you make the intemperate generalisation that all(?)/most(?) psychologists and psychiatrists are atheists and then you follow this with the Ad Hominem fallacy. The volume and frequency of your posts is indicative of obsessive-compulsive disorder which precludes any decision on your part. flavius 16:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course, flavius, again, you can't attack my arguments, so instead, you go for the ad hominem attack. And as we all know, the only people who ignore refuting the argument in favor of using ad hominem are those who HAVE NO COUNTER-ARGUMENT which stands up to even passing scrutiny. Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I attack your assertions masquerading as arguments (which you ignore as per Kook form) and I attack you also like the many hundreds before me. Rational discourse has no place in your paranoid worldview. Your talk of argument and counter-argument is meaningless. Spewing your rancorous paranoid conception of the world and your ugly misanthropy with a trailing assertion does not comprise an argument. Let's review your "evidence" and "argument" presented thus far in favour of NLP:

(1) Drill sergeants told me they use NLP;

(2) The US Army uses anchoring in its training;

(3) Using NLP I have experienced performance improvments in various activities;

(4) I used anchoring in a nightclub with success;

(5) I used NLP in a job interview with success;

(6) The US Army is the best army in the world, they use NLP, therefore NLP makes them the best army in the world;

(7) Because of (1) to (6) I conclude that NLP is effective.

(8) Because of (7) any scientific evidence which shows that NLP is ineffectice is incorrect and fraudulent.

This is a textbook case of a self-referential, unfalsifiable, subjectively based paranoid worldview. Your premises (1) to (6) are unfounded, irrelevant, or inconsequential therefore your conclusion is invalid. Your secondary conclusion (8) is a manifestation of your psychopathology, you present no evidence for this nor do do you provide a cogent explanation for how this could possibly be true. Statements (1) to (8) are shit. On the basis of this shit -- as if you've advanced some devastating thesis -- you're being abusive, presumptuous and voluble. flavius 13:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

And when CLAIMS that NLP is not effective contradict DIRECT EXPERIENCE IN TESTING IT, then it leads me to believe that those who are claiming it to be non-effective are deliberately sandbagging it for some reason (protection of grant money and/or academic and professional prestige which would be lost if "outsiders" were getting usable results in less time, with less education, then our UTTERLY ineffective professional psychologists. Your typical hypnotist resolves emotional problems in 1-3 months....which is utterly unheard of among those psychologists who don't use hypnosis. This alone demonstrates that a large number of psychologists are ignoring effective treatment and counseling methods ... AT THE EXPENSE OF WHOEVER IS PAYING the office-hours bills. Sources which have severe conflicts of interest are, by definition, NOT CREDIBLE. Akulkis 03:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron, your confidence in your "DIRECT EXPERIENCE" is ill-founded. Human reasoning and memory have numerous well-known weaknesses. Memory is subject to the "Seven Sins" of transcience, absent-mindedness, blocking, suggestibility, bias, persistence and misattribution (Schacter, 2001). Reasoning is vulnerable to the clustering illusion, non-regressive predictions, the regression fallacy, failure to distinguish between necessary and sufficient evidence, confirmation bias, the effect of bias on the interpretation of ambiguous information, the Barnum effect, self-serving bias, distortion, the false consensus effect and the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (Gilovich, 1991). The raison d'etre of experiment design and inferential statistics is the elimination or reduction of the influence of these human frailties on pursuit of truth. I raised this matter earlier and you conveniently ignored it so you could later accuse me of not addressing your arguments (cum assertions) and so you could blather about outwitting me. Why do you privilege your personal subjective experience so highly? On what basis? If direct experience alone were sufficient as method for determining truth then the scientific method would never have developed. Your first premise then is without foundation. Your caricutare of psychologists and psychiatrists as rapacious, selfish, vain and malevolent is merely that a caricature. You present no evidence that a significant number of psychologists and psychiatrists are as you imply. Your second premise is also insubstantial. You don't present any evidence that professional psychologists are "UTTERLY ineffective" you merely assert it. This premise too is invalid. Incidentally there is at least one licensed clinical psychologist (Eisner) that argues a persuasive case that all forms of psychotherapy -- including NLP -- are ineffective. Hans Eyesenck was a research psychologist that made the same criticism about psychotherpay almost 50 years ago. How do you explain that some of the most truculuent critics of psychotherapy (eg. Eysenck, Skinner, Eisner) are/were themselves psychologists? Eysenck's entire career was spent in academe as a research psychologist. How do you explain his scathing critiques of all of the form of psychotherpay that were common in the 1950s and 60s? This gross inconsistency and absence of supporting evidence undermines your third premise. Your claim about hypnosis and its supposed efficacy is yet more assertion. Can you substantiate your claim that a "typical hypnotist resolves emotional problems in 1-3 months"? I've seen no such evidence. Without evidence this is assertion (you do understand this don't you?). Thus your fourth premise is invalid. Given the ivalidity of your premises your conclusion that this "demonstrates that a large number of psychologists are ignoring effective treatment and counseling methods" is also invalid. You argument has been demonstrated to be false. You add, "Sources which have severe conflicts of interest are, by definition, NOT CREDIBLE". If we accept the truth of this statement then we must also apply it to NLP promoters. Surely, Bandler, Grinder, La Valle, James, Hall as NLP trainers and therapists have a conflict of interests when they advocate and defend NLP. Most of the pro-NLP camp here (eg. Comaze, GregA, FT2) draw an income from the provision of NLP services. On the basis of your principle then they are "NOT CREDIBLE". I have spent big bucks on NLP seminars, books, DVDs, videos and CDs -- my level of cognitive dissonance is high. My profession has no connection to psychology or psychiatry -- my employment, income and status are unaffected by the status of NLP. My reasoned opinion must -- by imlication given my dissonance and absence of conflict of interest -- be more credible than the professional NLPers here since you imply that they are "NOT CREDIBLE". flavius 17:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron. Someone also once a created a Usenet group in your honour: alt.romance.aaron.kulkis.sucks.cock[38] How esteemed you are and how esteemed we are to have you here. flavius 05:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

So, am I somehow responsible for some sorry cretin's creation in the un-regulated alt. hierarchy? Or is the fact that you bring this up merely a sign that, having failed to defeat my arguments, you're grasping at straws in an attempt to defame and otherwise discredit me (vainly, I might add) ass the "kook award" people. Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Your're the inspiration for its creation. Your aberrant behaviour provides grist for the humour mill. Your argument for NLP is comprised of premises and conclusions (1) to (8). You've merely asserted premises (1) to (6) and proceeded to draw the (invalid) conclusions (7) and (8). There is nothing to defeat. (1) to (5) is anecdote (some of it apocryphal). (6) is an informal logical fallacy ("Ferraris go fast because they are red."). (7) is an invalid conclusion because the premises are false. (8) is unadulterated paranoia. Your claim that NLP must be either ineffective and harmless or effective and harmful is a false dichotomy (refer my detailed exposition). Your claim regarding Barrett and Quakwatch is a misrepresntation of a court case. I I've said earlier you offer nothing other than blather and bluster. flavius 13:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, flavius, I admit it...before you, others who are also unable to deal with reality have also become frustrated with my superior use of reason, logic, and facts to make them look like the fools that they are....and that they, just like you, then went into an infantile rage and started all sorts of ad hominem attacks. And your point is what, exactly? Akulkis 04:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron. You were also nominee for the 2004 Usenet Kook of The Year Awards [39]. I'm really impressed. flavius 05:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow. Now, if you check the USENET archives, you'll notice that I didn't even post on USENET in 2004...in fact, I haven't posted on USENET since 2002, which just goes to show how the REAL kooks are those running around naming others as recipients of their silly award. Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron, you've not only been lying about habing a BS in EE but also about being in the US Army[40] flavius 05:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, really. I better inform my first sergeant that he can't demand that I show up on time for first formation, and I'd better inform the Department of the Army and the Department of Defence that all of those pretty medals they've awarded me, with accompanying citations in nice green folders that...they're utterly mistaken, that I was never in the army, and I was never did those actions cited, in the locations cited in the citations. Or, we can just recognize that YOU are just a troll, and you're upset by the fact that someone of superior intellect is fucking up your little game here. Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Your successful military career is a figment of your imagination. Not content with simply lying about being in the army, in true Kook fashion you've stretched the lie to breaking point by making yourself a decorated soldier. Since your first sergeant is in your head I don't think it matters what you "tell" him. Your proposed disjunction is as insubstantial as the rest of your verbiage. The most elegant explanation that is consistent with all of the evidence about you on Usenet is that you are disordered and disturbed. flavius 13:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

And you checked with the U.S. Department of Defence when, exactly?

I guess I'd better round up all of those citations signed by Colonels and Generals and send them back to the Pentagon as forgeries. You, know, flavius, if it wasn't for you, I never would have realized how big the conspiracy is...I mean...I was enlisted by a FAKE recruiter...and then I went to basic training at a FAKE Fort Jackson, where HUNDREDS of other co-conspirators pretended to be new enlistees or prior-service with a break in service enlistees, and others played the parts of US Army drill sergeants.... then, for years, I was part of a FAKE Air Defence Artillery unit, apparently outfitted with millions of dollars in stolen equipment, and at which other co-conspirators also worked, always keeping up the facade that I was in the military....and...whoah, then there was that year in Saudi Arabia, where the conspiracy expended even greater amounts of money, not only to fly me to Saudi Arabia and Back, and processing me through, what I know realize was a FAKE Fort Dix, but actually managed to convince LT GEN Pagonis to become part of the conspiracy, and admit me as the "representative" of my (fake) unit, 22nd Ordnance Battalion (Provisional) and when called, to give briefings on the (fake) Ordnance unit's operations in the theater to visiting flag officers and civilian dignitaries....oh, but...alas THEY WERE PART OF THE CONSPIRACY, TOO...and not only did LTGEN Pagonis admit me as a fake member of his actual briefing team, but, so clever was The Conspiracy, that he even had me over to dinner at his house, with the rest of the briefing team..... and then, in 1996, I went to the Atlanta Olympics...and again, THE CONSPIRACY not only fooled me into thinking I was part of the army, but even made sure that I enjoyed all of the privileges and benefits enjoyed by army and other defence department personnel who were part of the security teams at the Olympics....Wait...those weren't the REAL Olympics in Atlanta...THE CONSPIRACY actually built another city, again JUST TO FOOL ME into thinking I was part of the army, and participating in the security operation.....Then, in 2002, The Conspiracy...ah, this one took some REAL doing....not only did they AGAIN smuggle me into a real army base, Fort McCoy (or, failing that, spent several hundred million dollars creating a fake one,) all for the illusion of making me THINK I was in the army...but then got not only the other people in the conspiracy to get Customs and INS to go along with the Charade....and ordered me to work at the Port of Entry at the vehicle crossing points between Windsor and Detroit.

MY GOD, FLAVIUS/HeadleyDown...if it wasn't for YOU helping me see the light, I would STILL think I'm in the army....but now...now I finally realize that the Geneva Conventions ID card I am holding in my hand right now is an utter fake...a very GOOD fake...as it was made using the equipment and resources of the Identification Section at US Army Tank and Automotive Command,

but a fake, nevertheless. But, considering how they always pay me money, and all the other guys...the ACTORS who are all part of the conspiracy...how they all like the money they're getting...I think I'll keep doing it....I mean, after all, why should I shut the whole show down NOW...after all these years? Some of those actors who are part of the conspiracy to fool me into thinking I'm in the army...they NEED the paycheck.

So, I guess now, it leaves me an ethical question....I mean, considering how, thanks to your insight, I now see that I"m actually in some sort of fake-army instead of the real

army......Flavius, if it were you, would you quit, and throw out all of those actors, some of whom REALLY NEED THE MONEY that they earn playing their various roles in this giant charade to keep me fooled into thinking that I'm in the army when I never was? I mean... well, considering how much money The Conspiracy must have, if they can go to all the expense that they have so far, just to fool a nobody like me into thinking I'm in the army when I'm not...well then....yeah, I guess I'll just pretend like I don't know what they're up to.....I mean, after all, with the economy so lousy here in Detroit, the last thing we need in this area is a couple hundred actors all put out of work at once. Akulkis 04:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Aaron, your an absolute nutcase! There are 19,000 Usenet posts associated with only one of your email addresses and most of them are characterised by rancour, bitterness, anger and social alienation[41]. There are many threads in many groups where you are mocked and ridculed in response to your lies, paranoid worldview, weak reality testing, aberrant concept of evidence and raw emoting[42]. This thread is a good primer on Aaron Kulkis: [43].

flavius 06:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Ho hum. Flavius is still avoiding addressing my arguments, and completely focused on rumor, innuendo, and slander. Why is that? Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Akulkis. Your comments today are unhelpful and unproductive as usual. They are all ignored. HeadleyDown 03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Gee, Headley, how many fortune cookies did you have to eat before you found that one.

Translation: I, HeadleyDown, and attempting to own the page for my particular NON-NPOV, and resent anyone who objects, and when faced with rational criticism, I, HeadleyDown, solidly stick my fingers in my years while yelling, "Nyaah-Nyaah-Nyaah I can't hear you". Why don't you quit acting like a child and Grow the fuck up. User:Akulkis:Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005

I agree that a lot of NLPers are quite sloppy with regard to scientific research and a lot of NLP practice is not as effective as it claims to be. However I find that the criticism of cultism in this article borders on sensationalism and tabloid journalism. Therefore I have nominated this article for NPOV. --Dejakitty 22:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Dejakitty. You seem to wish to remove stated facts of scientists and experts. The view of NLP as a cult is widespread and holds the weight of science and anthropology amongst other expert views. HeadleyDown 03:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley. Judging by Dejakitty's "credentials" he/she seems to be a meatpuppet/sockpuppet of Comaze or Akulkis. Don't waste your time. Lets just get on with the clarifications. Metabubble seems to be a little more convincing, but nevertheless has teamed up with a 10 times a day fact deleting certified NLP fanatic (Comaze), and a tourette's ridden pseudoscientist (Akulkis). Either way, their efforts to remove cited fact are as doomed to failure as the last bunch of psychoshaman wannabes. Cheers DaveRight 04:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of sock-puppets, how come this conversation is unique in the number of people on the 'anti' side who ALL use the term "whitewashing"... rather strange that ALL would choose the exact same terminology for editing out UNSUPPORTED and/or FALSELY CITED DISPARAGING REMARKS.

Thus, we can conclude that HeadleyDown is also:

Camridge

DRight

HelenDeGrey

flavius

Now you all have have fun with that. Akulkis 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Clearly you're a genius, your forensic skills are exemplary. You've outsmarted me. My real name cannot be written in English (or any human language). I am an intergalactic visitor. It appears that your tin foil hat has prevented my alien rays penetrating your brain and creating the illusion that I am many people. I am also Bookmain, HeadleyDown and everyone who will disagree with you in the future. I am also Comaze, FT2, GregA and everyone else representing the proNLP view and I just argue with myself to stir up conflict on Earth -- the end of the Earth will commence with a conflict on Wikipedia. I do not pretend to be HelenDeGrey (yet), we can pretend that she is AliceDeGrey's sister. The entire discussion has really been between you and me all along. Of course you are right about NLP. Who could possibly dispute that two second-rate scholars from a second-rate university that between them have snorted acres of Coca tree leaves, fell-out with each other, one of which is diabetic, periodically obese, wears dentures, has been bankrupted twice, lies about having a PhD and sued his co-inventor twice, haven't subjected their theorising to any empirical testing, borrowed numerous ideas that were popular in the early 1970s are the last word on matters of psychology, human performance, neurology, mental illness, accelerated learning, persuasion and rapport? How could anyone possibly deny that NLP is the "dog's bollocks". Anyone that says otherwise is a a liar. flavius 14:24, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, asshole, if similar outlook is all it takes to define a sockpuppet, then the use of particular and peculiar terminology is a smoking gun. If you're going to call everyone who doesen't agree with you a sockpuppet of me or Comaze, then likewise, You, Camridge, DaveRight/DRight, HelenDeGrey and HeadleyDown ARE ALL THE SAME PERSON. Or do you know admit that the supposed logic used to accuse me of making up a sockpuppet named DejaKitty is utterly fucked up and without basis or merit. Akulkis Akulkis 03:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You have a well-documented sordid WWW history. It would not be discordant for someone that has made over 25,000 usenet posts and has been recognised a Kook to use sockpuppets and to recruit meatpuppets. There is evidence that you have been herding meatpuppets. Given the factual evidence the inductive step that you are sockpuppeting is reasonable. It's taken you much effort and time to establish yourself as a Kook. Your status as a Kook will influence others perception of you. Kooks do all manner of bizarre, unethical and spiteful things. Sockpuppeting is a part of the WWW Kooks toolbox. As a celebrated Kook I'm confident that you've resorted to the sockpuppet during your distinguished career as a WWW Kook. Do you list your WWW Kook awards and nominations in your CV? flavius 17:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your anti-NPOV agenda is clear from your history. I have also noticed that RichardCleen and Blauregen are similarly credential-less. Looks to me like they are all meatpuppets of yours, or are siding with you in your long march to delete/obscure facts on Wikipedia. Camridge 06:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Camridge. As the saying goes. "That you are paranoid does not mean they aren't after you", so keep up your distrust about people who disagree with you. Otherwise you have only my word that i am not associated with Comaze. As for my credentials. I admit that i have neither a formal qualification in psychology or neurology, nor did i receive any formal training in NLP. Therefore i have to rely on common sense and the evaluation of the cited sources in helping to clarify this article. With all the apparent misquotation due to seemingly sloppy interpretation of sources this may take some time, but i am sure we can achieve an article that is at least factually correct over time. Blauregen 01:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is siding with anybody. Let's restore some civility in this discussion. Ignore the personal remarks, and accept that uncivil behaviour is unfortunately a part of everyday life on wikipedia. Use strikethroughs to remove personal attacks and remarks. We've got an open arbitration evidence page so I suggest that everyone submit their evidence there so we can air our disputes and get on with it. Let's support each other as wikipedians regardless of content disputes. New users are welcome here and sometimes we need to point them in the direction of wikipedia policy so they can understand the wikipedia philosophy, and assume good faith. A reminder that this is not usenet -- we are here to work together and discuss to come to a consensus about what is Neutral point of view. I've sent private messages to people who have engaged in personal attacks against anyone here. I will do whatever it takes to restore civility on this page. --Comaze 06:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, you have given your bestest efforts to irritate people into conflict by posting unreasonable (in the light of your activities and history) objections here and on their personal pages. But it has stopped working. Relative civility has been achieved primarily by ignoring/reverting you and your co-NLPfanatic meatpuppets. DaveRight 06:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, if you were interested in resoring civility, you would stop posting unfounded complaints on nonNLPpromotional editor's personal pages. You would also stop advocating for the removal of sited fact and the views of qualified science. Your pretence at neutrality is as likely to create conflict as Akulkis' personal attacks. Solution for restoring civility: Ignore Comaze's ridiculous assertions, ignore his unfounded objections and his meatpuppets, and just continue to make the article more clear. Camridge 06:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

:::Comaze, nobody is fooled by your whitewash. Though I suspect some find it amusing. Bookmain 08:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze's edits

Hi Bookmain, I noticed you tried to revert the image back to normal after comaze butchered it yet again. A copy and paste is required, and of course, Comaze is going to be reported with all his history laid bare, and I will probably post it on his own personal page for all to laugh at also.Camridge 09:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your whitewash is noted as is your slur campaign. You are certainly to be ignored, and I feel great satisfaction in deleting your trashy harrassment from my personal page. Camridge 09:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze's comments and edits have been consistent from his arrival; Consistently tedious, uncooperative, unproductive, antagonistic, anti-NPOV, anti-brevity, anti-mediation, anti-clarity, anti-science, and he is best ignored. Camridge 09:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

---

What do you make of the following remark in Background? Sarcasm? "...because he could not resolve the dispute through the use of NLP."

Criticism of NLP Application

At the moment there is a problem with the criticism not being connected to any specific aspects of NLP. One solution is to connect the criticism of applications to the application section. I want to move all the criticism of NLP application underneath each application. See here for an example . --Comaze 08:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Scientology of achievement

File:NLP-Scientology of achievement2.JPG

Option 1

File:Scientology of achievement.JPG

Option 2

Also is there any objection to changing the sarcastic "Scientology of Acheivement" image with this one? The question is does anyone have any specific objections to moving the criticism of application to the appropriate section, or to using the second image? I think it is more neutral because it removed the Scientology bias and some of the sarcasm. I think the caption could read, "Don't ask why, ask how" but that can be negotiated. --Comaze 08:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as i can see it's only function aside from optical disaggregation of the page is building an association from NLP to scientology. Since there was no supporting evidence for such a connection,and the only slightly related claims lately refered to Perls and dianetics it does not seem to bring any clarification or new information to the page. This would be equally true for your new version, so it may be best to remove it altogether. Blauregen 10:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Blauregen. You seem to be in mortal danger of close association with a rather extreme fanatic. Your suggestions are similar to that of Comaze. Sorry if that is insulting to you, but that is your behaviour. HeadleyDown 11:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually the fact that i cannot find any valuable information or clarification in this image does not seem to pose a mortal threat to my health. Maybe i should clarify something. I am not interrested in playing a kind of intellectual 'capture-the-flag' with either of you, nor do i find the dramaqueening of certain users here over every edit especially amusing. I initially came to the subject of NLP because i was interrested in Bandler & Grinders analyisis of the therapeutic techniques of Milton H. Erickson, and extended my knowledge from there. After watching this article for a few weeks i am honestly fed up with the fact that i can't refer anyone to it, because some of you seem to mistake wikipedia for a kind of intellectual quake-map. Myself i am neither pro- nor counter-NLP, so please forgive if i side with neither of you, but simply try to correct factual errors, obvious misinterpretations and unneeded slur. At the moment, while trying to do this, i find myself mostly in agreement with Comaze. This may or may not change when if find time to go over the pro-nlp-parts of the article. Blauregen 12:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Blauregen. I am unaquainted with your game metaphors. What is a quakemap? I am neither quaking nor do I use maps for my reality. I prefer views. Metaphors aside, your pressure is towards Comaze's sort of whitewash. And your efforts promise to be as futile as the last set of NLPfans. You cannot remove views that are supported by multiple sources. HeadleyDown 16:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comments

::This is amazing. Not only has Comaze had to resort to mass slurs on personal pages, but he has tried to doctor images in a way that makes them meaningless. I don't really know Comaze (and really would rather not) but his sort of obsessive censorship behaviour is really freaky and wierdo. You do get some strange people here. DaveRight 06:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, you are clearly trying to cover up your anti-NPOV behaviour. Your slurs and doctoring of images has been noted, as has your history of coverup. Camridge 08:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Well. Since no one pointed out any informational or clarifying value of the image, aside from an alleged but unsupported association of Scientology and NLP, i am going to remove it for the sake of brevity. Blauregen 15:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Revert Comaze's conflict prompting edits

Hello all. Comaze has been trying to provoke people into conflict for months. He has posted unreasonable objections on multiple editors personal pages for months, has made repeat queries to issues that have been dealt with for months, and places criticisms in areas where they will be hard to deal with without conflict. Any provocation from long term antagonist Comaze is best dealt with by reversion, or by deleting his irritation on your personal pages. Keeping conflict to a minimum is important on this article. HeadleyDown 01:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Headley. Nice to see things improving. Yes, Comaze has clearly been trying to confound editing here for a long time. Since his months long 10*perday reversionfest, stated commitment to a bandler/grinder only viewpoint, and his use of mediation/arbitration to slow things down, he has resorted to the constant accusation of attacks on him, and the repeated denial that questions have been answered. I think he has stopped making any impact at all. Ignoring him seems to be working, and the article is in better shape. Of course, that also means that his meatpuppets get the same treatment. Such is life. ATB JPLogan 02:43, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your objections hold no weight. Your agenda is clear from your history (deletion of science and critical facts, persistent harrassment, and general NLP-zealot behaviour). You, and co-antagonists will simply be ignored. Camridge 05:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your question has been answered already. Your objection/suggestion is as unreasonable as your months of unsuccessful attempts to delete scientifically based criticism. Camridge 05:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Strange how all of the unsupported LIES and other erroneous inclusions are come from HeadleyDown , and Camridge, but not Comaze. If he's such a liar, then how come it is YOU guys who are doing all of the lying? As stated before, I'm hardly an expert on the subject of NLP, but I've caught BOTH of you red-handed, REPEATEDLY, inserting outright lies (let alone assertions with extremely dubious support) into this page. Akulkis Tue Dec 20 09:44:16 UTC 2005

Senses, input output, programming metaphor, rituals

Just to help with explanations, I noticed that the sense based notion of human behaviour that NLP uses is extremely convenient (albeit groundless). If the assumption is taken on, then all you need to do to change behaviour is to alter those internal representations. It is perfect for use in cults, and for development of hypochondriach/paranoia ritual development. I noticed this is also connected with NLP assertions that "your mind does not know the difference between real and imagined happenings" and the that this can somehow be transferred to the use of language/magic words, and so on. I suspect that this can be useful as a line of explanation in the pseudoscience section. Any further associated suggetions? Camridge 06:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, I don't see how this post, 'For example, NLP assumes that all human behaviour is neurological, and all human behaviour is based on the 5 senses, rather than "attitudes" "reason" "emotions" "mind" "morals" or "ego".' add any value to the article. It is not referenced and adds no value to the article. Actually I think the information is false. I don't know of notable author in NLP who says that "all behaviour is neurological" that would be insane. --Comaze 07:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, Camridge. I reckon a bit of comparison and contrast is in order. NLP doesn't even bother to find out stuff about the unconscious even though it goes on about unconscious stuff in the lit. A lot of this could be handled in the pseudo section, but also in the cult section (in comparison with cults for clarificn). Comparison with other pseudos has been achieved to a certain extent, but contrast with clinical psych and other scientifically rigorous methods may be helpful. CHeers DaveRight 06:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, your recent post has misleading edit comments. You actually remove important information about transformational syntax. --Comaze 07:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Refactoring

For page that does not have conduct issues and significant content disputes then refactoring would be an option. I'm going to go through my lightly refactor my posts in an attempt to stop the circular arguments. I think that detractors would just get in the way. If we were all getting along then we could refactor any off-topic or repeated contentto help us keep the talk page clean, see Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages. Imagine how good this page would be if we had on topic, minimalistic replies :) Now that is a desired future. I am however going to check all my mosts and remove any personal remarks that I have made, if you see any, please let me know. A simple strikethrough can be used to remove personal remarks or attacks made at anyone. I strongly encouage everyone to go through your posts and refactor and remove any personal attacks. On wikipedia, no personal attacks and avoid personal remarks can be used interchangeably. In fact, any personal comments should also be avoided. Personal attacks can and will be removed, and any attack should brought to the attention of the author. Although it is better if someone else removes it for you or somebody else defends you when being attacked. Let's start supporting each other regardless of content disputes. This discussion page is to discuss weight of various points of view with the aim of presenting a neutral point of view. It is not a place for pushing POV or shouting at each other. I'm going to become less involved in the editing of this page while arbitration is open so as to reduce disputes or chance of any new conflicts arising. --Comaze 09:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, Comaze, you go ahead and do some more whitewash, and we can go ahead and ignore you some more. DaveRight 06:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, editors here will point out your tedious and unproductive behaviour as long as you continue with your tedious and unproductive behaviour. Camridge 08:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, your definition of personal attack does not comply with that of the rational thinking world. Your accusations of personal attack are simply due to your desire to accuse and slur. Camridge 09:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)