Talk:2018–2019 Gaza border protests/Archive 6
 | This is an archive of past discussions about 2018–2019 Gaza border protests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Nonexistent quote
In the “Palestinian tactics” section, the following is included:
“In an interview with NPR, one young Palestinian preparing to launch an incendiary kite emblazoned with a swastika explained that they used the symbolism and embraced antisemitism and Nazism so that the Israeli's would know "that we want to burn them".”
When I checked the source, it was a Business Insider article (not NPR) which cites an NPR article, but when I clicked that link to the NPR article, this anecdote is nowhere in it. Therefore the above part should be removed.
I don’t have authority to edit so if someone can do so that would be helpful. 98.14.224.109 (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve provided a link to the interview. BilledMammal (talk) 22:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I removed this as undue weight on a random Palestinian. If sources say such things were a notable aspect of the protests then sure, but one Palestinian with Nazi sympathies isnt exactly representative of protests that saw tens of thousands of Palestinians join. nableezy - 00:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- The use of swastikas and nazi symbols were widely reported (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc).
- Given the wide coverage, it is appropriate to include the comments made by one of the individuals involved - and I note there is much more coverage of this than some of the other content in our article. BilledMammal (talk) 01:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Those all say a single instance of such a thing was seen. A handful of news articles is not wide coverage. This is the definition of undue weight, taking some minor aspect that as proportion of coverage of the topic is infinitesimally small and giving it attention it does not merit. In the universe of sources about the border protests this has approximately 0 weight. nableezy - 01:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- It’s more coverage than most of the aspects in this article have received. If this is UNDUE, then so is most of the article. BilledMammal (talk) 01:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- In fact let’s look at your NYT article. It is focused on the killing of a fifteen year old child by Israeli snipers. And it includes that the Israeli military distributed an image of a kite with a swastika. You give that single sentence a full sentence in the article, but we don’t mention the killing of the 15 year old child that the UN Special Coordinator for the peace process condemned. You take a single sentence out of an article focused on Israel killing a child and then give the weight to that single sentence. nableezy - 01:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
we don’t mention the killing of the 15 year old child that the UN Special Coordinator for the peace process condemned.
Yes, we do; 2018–2019 Gaza border protests#20 April- Does that, combined with the fact that the NYT article is just one of several that I've provided, address your concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 08:59, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oh it’s mentioned, but no that does not. The NYT devotes an entire article to that event and within it a single sentence to the IDF releasing a photo of a single kite. No, those should not be given the same weight. If anything the 15 year old kid should be given something like 10x the weight as this, which would make this worth, again, about 0 weight. nableezy - 09:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- We give five sentences to the boy, we can afford one for this, particularly most content in the article is far less significant as the boy; for example, we include a quote from Sir Stephen Sedley, but as far as I can tell there is no coverage of it in independent, reliable sources. BilledMammal (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree that this lone Palestinian with a kite emblazoned with a swastika merits inclusion and I do not think the sourcing for it shows it has weight. If other things lack weight to include they can also be removed. But this is a straightforward attempt at emphasizing a minor aspect that has close to 0% coverage in sources about this topic as a whole. We have reached the point where scholarly works are written about the Great March of Return, and how much weight do any of them give this? Health and Human Rights Journal, never mentioned for example. You are taking a set of news articles, for which there are thousands and thousands about this topic, and emphasizing a handful about a single Palestinian. One of them is an interview, which doesn’t show any weight, another gives one sentence to an IDF piece of propaganda, and the others regurgitate each other. nableezy - 09:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- And let’s look at the France24 article. It says The kites are part of a new tactic aimed at setting fields on the Israeli side on fire. Most kites showed the colors of the Palestinian flag. One white kite bore a Nazi swastika. In an article again focused on Palestinians being killed. But you are claiming that this single kite that it devotes a single sentence to should be included here? nableezy - 09:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC
- Considering everything else we include in our article, yes; it would be a WP:BALASP violation given that most of the content of this article is less significant, has received less coverage. If you want to gut this article of everything that is of equal or lower significance than the use of these kites, go ahead - but until then, this content needs to be included.
- Note that Swastika kites in relation to this protest were also used in Europe
- In addition, it wasn't a lone Palestinian with a single kite; according to our sources (including Mondoweiss) there have been multiple examples of this, in addition to the use of Nazi symbolism in formats outside of kites. BilledMammal (talk) 09:59, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, it is a BALASP violation to give attention to this minor detail that even contemporary news articles treat as a minor detail. I also fail to see the relevance of a protest in Europe to an article on protests in Gaza. nableezy - 10:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed it; we obviously aren't going to agree - if you want to remove it, please open an RfC. BilledMammal (talk) 09:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- One swallow doesn't make a spring. In a series of demonstrations that lasted well over a year, where upwards of 220 unarmed protesters were gunned down by safely ensconced snipers, and hundreds of incendiary kites were launched, rare examples of the emblazoning of a Nazi symbol on a few of them mean little in the overall context. I would suggest that this minor devil in the minutiae of details be given a footnote. It is certainly not appropriate to the overall narrative, which tries, rather inefficiently, to address the core facts of those demonstrations. Trying to tar them with an antisemitic brush by innuendo is cheap.Nishidani (talk) 09:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The core facts include that antisemitic imagery were used by some protestors - and I note that the protests were endorsed and heavily supported by an antisemitic organization. BilledMammal (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note what you like, but this is undue weight and I’ve removed it per NPOV. nableezy - 10:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- And as far as your status quo claim, you added this some 50 edits ago. That it was not noticed at the time doesnt give your addition consensus for inclusion, and unless you can point to some explicit consensus for it on this talk page WP:ONUS still requires consensus for challenged material. nableezy - 16:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The core facts include that antisemitic imagery were used by some protestors - and I note that the protests were endorsed and heavily supported by an antisemitic organization. BilledMammal (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- One swallow doesn't make a spring. In a series of demonstrations that lasted well over a year, where upwards of 220 unarmed protesters were gunned down by safely ensconced snipers, and hundreds of incendiary kites were launched, rare examples of the emblazoning of a Nazi symbol on a few of them mean little in the overall context. I would suggest that this minor devil in the minutiae of details be given a footnote. It is certainly not appropriate to the overall narrative, which tries, rather inefficiently, to address the core facts of those demonstrations. Trying to tar them with an antisemitic brush by innuendo is cheap.Nishidani (talk) 09:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed it; we obviously aren't going to agree - if you want to remove it, please open an RfC. BilledMammal (talk) 09:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, it is a BALASP violation to give attention to this minor detail that even contemporary news articles treat as a minor detail. I also fail to see the relevance of a protest in Europe to an article on protests in Gaza. nableezy - 10:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- And let’s look at the France24 article. It says The kites are part of a new tactic aimed at setting fields on the Israeli side on fire. Most kites showed the colors of the Palestinian flag. One white kite bore a Nazi swastika. In an article again focused on Palestinians being killed. But you are claiming that this single kite that it devotes a single sentence to should be included here? nableezy - 09:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC
- I disagree that this lone Palestinian with a kite emblazoned with a swastika merits inclusion and I do not think the sourcing for it shows it has weight. If other things lack weight to include they can also be removed. But this is a straightforward attempt at emphasizing a minor aspect that has close to 0% coverage in sources about this topic as a whole. We have reached the point where scholarly works are written about the Great March of Return, and how much weight do any of them give this? Health and Human Rights Journal, never mentioned for example. You are taking a set of news articles, for which there are thousands and thousands about this topic, and emphasizing a handful about a single Palestinian. One of them is an interview, which doesn’t show any weight, another gives one sentence to an IDF piece of propaganda, and the others regurgitate each other. nableezy - 09:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- We give five sentences to the boy, we can afford one for this, particularly most content in the article is far less significant as the boy; for example, we include a quote from Sir Stephen Sedley, but as far as I can tell there is no coverage of it in independent, reliable sources. BilledMammal (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oh it’s mentioned, but no that does not. The NYT devotes an entire article to that event and within it a single sentence to the IDF releasing a photo of a single kite. No, those should not be given the same weight. If anything the 15 year old kid should be given something like 10x the weight as this, which would make this worth, again, about 0 weight. nableezy - 09:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- In fact let’s look at your NYT article. It is focused on the killing of a fifteen year old child by Israeli snipers. And it includes that the Israeli military distributed an image of a kite with a swastika. You give that single sentence a full sentence in the article, but we don’t mention the killing of the 15 year old child that the UN Special Coordinator for the peace process condemned. You take a single sentence out of an article focused on Israel killing a child and then give the weight to that single sentence. nableezy - 01:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- It’s more coverage than most of the aspects in this article have received. If this is UNDUE, then so is most of the article. BilledMammal (talk) 01:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Those all say a single instance of such a thing was seen. A handful of news articles is not wide coverage. This is the definition of undue weight, taking some minor aspect that as proportion of coverage of the topic is infinitesimally small and giving it attention it does not merit. In the universe of sources about the border protests this has approximately 0 weight. nableezy - 01:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)