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Possible inaccurate information about n, m, ɲ

There is a note next to /n/, /m/, /ɲ/ that says, "The nasal consonants /n, m, ɲ/ contrast only before vowels". I have strong doubts about the accuracy of that statement, at least regarding /n/ and /m/, because /ɲ/ is not used before a consonant, if I'm not mistaken. I believe /n/ and /m/ do contrast also before consonants, like in the words "mantel" and "femtogramo". If a general Spanish speaker is reading those words, probably the reader will be intent in contrasting /n/ and /m/. Although contrast may not occur in some cases, that does not mean that it is the rule that they only contrast before vowels. Thinker78 (talk) 04:59, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Thinker78: I don't see a reason why a native Spanish speaker wouldn't pronounce femtogramo as [fenˈtoɣɾamo] (if I got the stress right, maybe it's [fentoˈɣɾamo]). The surname of Carlos Slim is always pronounced [ezˈlin] when it occurs in isolation. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Take a look at Spanish phonology#Nasals and laterals, which explains the situation with sources. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 18:30, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

ð??? Really???

ð is the sound at the beginning of "this", "there", "those", etc. The sound of ð requires the speaker to place the tip of his/her tongue between his/her frontal teeth or, at least, under the upper frontal teeth. Definitely, there is contact with such teeth and the very tip of the tongue goes beyond the teeth... We never do that in Spanish. I am a Spanish native speaker. And even when pronouncing really fast, my tongue never comes out at all. The "d" in Spanish is pronounced by placing a great part of the tip of the tongue on the BACK of the frontal upper teeth.

When pronouncing dádiva, arder and admirar, perhaps and only perhaps, the tip goes a little bit lower but not enough to be trapped by the teeth. I won't make any changes because this is backed by the book from some guys who seem to have enough credentials (Martínez-Celdrán, Fernández-Planas & Carrera-Sabaté). Maybe there is no IPA symbol for this "lower" d and they decided to use ð. But, I really think this will slow down the learning of many people and might be even misleading. I have spoken with Spaniards, Uruguayans, Argentinians, Colombians, Ecuadorians, Venezuelans, Peruvians, Bolivians, etc. from different regions and backgrounds. No trace of ð at all, at least not the "pure" ð.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 15:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

There are a number of realizations of [ð]. What you are talking about is sometimes called interdental or laminal dental, where the point of constriction is not on the tip of the tongue, but the blade so that the tip sticks out more. There is also a more apical realization, which is typical for Spanish, that uses the same IPA character. It is valid to use ⟨ð⟩ for both of these and there is no alternate symbol, nor is there a typical manner of distinguishing the two, since no language contrasts them. So there's no inaccuracy here. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:22, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

"avgano". This made me laugh.

If I pronounced afgano as "avgano" no one would understand me. If this is based on research... well, no doubt we've really gone astray. I might acknowledge that some "lazy" people might mispronounce some words but you should rely on the official standard pronunciation. Besides, remember that we should not present the pronunciation of uneducated people here. Otherwise we are contributing to the propagation of bad pronunciation habits.

When we, Spanish speakers, want to make a difference between "Baca" (a surname) and "vaca", "botar" y "votar", etc. We use /b/ for the first case and /v/ for the second. But, when speaking fast, most times both sounds clash into /b/.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I was a little surprised, too. But it's well-sourced. Do you have sourcing that says otherwise? There could even be dialectal variation on that. The features in question aren't necessarily those of uneducated speakers, but of colloquial speech. We do want to steer towards being descriptive, rather than prescriptive. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:57, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

tʃ is less "explosive" in Spanish.

This is even supported by the audio file for "chocolate". I checked the IPA and I found no symbol for this slightly different sound. At least none assigned to Spanish. The other symbols like ʈʂ and, t̠ɕ sound like "ch", too, but, I don't feel so sure... Should we not place a note about this?

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 15:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

What you are referring to is aspiration. Rather than place or manner of articulation, what distinguishes the English sound from the Spanish one is a puff of air immediately following the frication. In the IPA you would represent the English sound as [tʃʰ]. This is the closest sound in English to the one in Spanish, despite that difference. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:29, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@George Rodney Maruri Game: A number of Spanish dialects use [ts] or [tɕ] for /tʃ/; I think that [ts] for /tʃ/ is rapidly becoming the standard in Spain, though I might be wrong about that.

Some dialects also deaffricate /tʃ/ to [ʃ], but I don't think that's what you're talking about in your post. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 20:39, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I get ya. Chilean Spanish may be like that. "Soy chileno" may become "soy shileno" in certain areas in Chile and it has to do a lot with education level/social class (it sounds discriminatory but sometimes reality is ugly). I think it is necessary to be as "prescriptive" as possible, otherwise, dialects one day will become hard to understand for others. Some countries have adopted that posture and have created standards for pronunciation and not only for spelling. Globalization is a good thing in terms of "uniformity". Obviously losing "variety" sucks, too. It'd be "nostalgic" to lose a dialect (history, culture, etc.). I know languages are "alive" but a line must be drawn in order to be able to communicate as smoothly as possible. Regarding, the current status of "ch" in Spain, I haven't noticed that. I watch news and movies from there. But, so far, everything sounds "normal" to me. "Cotse" instead of "coche" would be a really astonishing change.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:30, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@George Rodney Maruri Game: I wouldn't call it astonishing. It's happening, and it's basically adjusting the place of articulation of /tʃ/ to that of /s/ which is a retracted alveolar consonant produced with little to no palatalization. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Enyesar does not have the sound of ñ.

Enyesar DOES NOT sound like "eñesar" which is implied here. I know of a dialect (in Ecuador highlands) that MIGHT render its pronunciation that way but, that is not a standard pronunciation. The y in enyesar sounds much more like "ɟʝ" as in cónyuge and abyecto which are correctly placed in the table.

Justification - I am a native speaker and Phonetics enthusiast. - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enyesar

Action - I will make the necessary change.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 15:01, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, sources back this statement up. See Spanish phonology#Consonants. Do you have a source that says otherwise? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:17, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

My best source is up there...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enyesar

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 18:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm, well that's not really a compelling source without citations of its own (it's like citing a Wikipedia page). But also Wiktionary's transcription of [ẽɲɟ͡ʝeˈsaɾ] indicates that the ⟨n⟩ represents a palatal nasal or [ɲ], the sound that ⟨ñ⟩ normally represents in Spanish. That's exactly how we've been indicating it should be transcribed. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:05, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

The "broad" transcription /enɟ͡ʝeˈsaɾ/ is perfect! I wonder where they pronounce an "ñ" just before the /ɟʝ/ in enyesar. It sounds really "forced", I can hardly pronounce [ɲɟ͡ʝ]. I have friends from different Spanish-speaking countries and I bet all of them would have a hard time with the "narrow" transcription. I does not sound "natural". I wonder if it used to be the standard pronunciation 200 years ago. I have some French and Russian friends, they have the sound of ñ in their languages' inventory. Maybe they have this combination.

Well, it will be the "experts" way (possibly, that includes you). But, I am 100^100% sure this is not "descriptive" and, certainly, if this is "prescriptive" (the side I tend to lean on), very few people would ever adopt it.

I am new at writing comments concerning IPA. I speak Spanish and I can pronounce all the symbols in the list. Some of them are not in my dialect but I can pronounce them all and can speak using any if I want (I enjoy imitating accents.). English (GA) is a second language for me, currently C1 level (European Framework) and IPA was (and still is) a superb tool. I am learning German right now and came here to check for any similar sounds. I love IPA despite the fact many people do not like it. For me, it eases things a lot. I know it is not "perfect" but I think Wikipedia IPA is more accurate for English (a lot of columns in English IPA for several dialects) and only one for Spanish.

I hope someone can find my comments "insightful".

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 20:16, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Spanish does not contrast nasals before a following consonant and instead, that nasal takes on the same place of articulation as said following consonant. What may be going on is that your realization of /ɟ͡ʝ/ may have a different place of articulation. A number of dialects pronounce this as [dʒ], which could account for a more alveolar or less truly palatal nasal. Because we've chosen to represent this sound as palatal, rather than palato-alveolar, it makes sense that we would use the palatal nasal for those nasals that precede it. There is, unfortunately, no way to be dialect neutral about this. It's possible that the dialect we are representing is too formal or not representative enough, but it would be a good idea to see what sourcing says about distribution. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 20:59, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

This page implies that enyesar is pronounced eñyesar, not eñesar, because the n is bolded, not the whole ny combination. Wiktionary says that enyesar is pronounced [ẽɲɟ͡ʝeˈsaɾ], so it agrees with this page. — Eru·tuon 22:53, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

There should be a clear notice saying that /e/ here in fact means /e̞/

As I said, I am learning German. When I saw an /e/ there I said "cool, I we have that in Spanish"... Then, bam! They do have the "real" /e/. It is a Spanish e "spiced" with some Spanish "i", like a mixture. Or, at least, that is how it sounds to me.

The good thing is that this article and Spanish phonology both provide a Wikilink for the "real deal", i. e., /e̞/.

A notice saying something like "For simplicity's sake the symbol [e̞] is not being used. /e/ is used instead." An even so, that would mean "hiding" from Spanish speakers precious information about one of their vowels.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

@George Rodney Maruri Game: There are levels of narrowness of phonetic transcription (see User:Nardog#Misconceptions) and Spanish /e/ can be close-mid [e], but it can also be open-mid or something in-between. This varies between dialects and individual speakers.

Also, see phoneme and allophone. Symbols placed between slashes represent abstract phonological entities (phonemes) that are by definition language-specific and aren't actual sounds. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 22:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

There used to be an explicit note. I hadn't noticed that Lfdder took it out five years ago! Any objection to restoring it? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 03:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I have one. The English DRESS, like Spanish /e/, is also intermediate between the cardinal [e] and [ɛ] and is transcribed with either symbol depending on convention. Not only that, the fact that it "doesn't quite line up" with any sound in English goes without saying for anyone with a modicum of understanding of how languages differ. No sound does. If we started this, it wouldn't be sensical unless we added a footnote for virtually every symbol, beginning with [ð] and [tʃ] discussed above. Nardog (talk) 11:58, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Examples

I've removed anfibio from the /m/ example, as I think this was a mistake. I don't have any verifiable source for this, but I've never heard that pronunciation and it seems to be way more awkward, so I really doubt it's even something some people say.

I also think that only unambiguous examples should be used and, album is not, as there're many speakers who just pronounce it with /m/, as the spelling suggest. I'm not arguing that many --may be the majority-- don't, just that it is shouldn't be an example due to this double usage. --Kakahuete (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Take a look at Spanish phonology#Consonant neutralizations. Nasal consonants assimilate the place of articulation to a following consonant. For anfibio, this turns the n into a labiodental nasal, which is precisely represented in the IPA with ⟨ɱ⟩. For this guide, we have chosen to represent this as ⟨m⟩ for simplicity's sake. This is both sourced information and something that has some discussion behind it so I wouldn't change it without getting consensus.

Ambiguous examples are actually really important because it lets editors know how we should transcribe related cases. This helps our transcriptions be consistent and avoids edit warring (accidental or otherwise) over such ambiguities. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 23:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok, so now that the labiodental nasal is being discussed again, I'd like to point out that, even though it was decided to represent ⟨ɱ⟩ as ⟨m⟩ for this guide, there's no notice of it on the article and I think it's absurd to pretend that editors would read the whole archived discussion before editing. It also is a good idea to state the convention not only for helping editors, but also so readers know. This is already stated in a footnote in the help IPA page for Italian. I've copied this, but please check it and edit it as you may find necessary. Kakahuete (talk) 13:54, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Good catch. I've tweaked the note, but you're right that we should mention it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 17:27, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Kakahuete, for me it sounds like "hyper-pronunciation". I could accept "ŋ" but never m. The sound of m requires one's lips to touch (at least slightly). We never do that with "anfibio". If this is supported by researchers, it is surely wrong. I hope some day someone "re-researches" this matter. I feel as if my hands were tied.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 15:43, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think we should add IPA variants for Castillian Spanish (Spanish spoken in Spain) and Latin American Spanish. 86.29.64.45 (talk) 17:18, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

We kind of already do. Have you read the text above the chart? How would you want to do it differently? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 22:02, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

How to write pronunciation of a name in two languages?

I was trying to change the lead sentence of the article Jimmy Morales to just include his full name per MOS:HYPOCORISM, but I realized that to do that the IPA gets complicated. "James" is not a Spanish name, so I don't know if it would be appropriate to use an IPA-es template for the pronunciation. "Jimmy" is not a Spanish name either but it is widely used in the public as opposed to "James" and it is unclear how Jimmy Morales pronounce the name as anecdotally I think some people pronounce it Template:Ipa-es. Thinker78 (talk) 19:23, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Your stab at it ([ˈɟʝimi]) is what I would guess, based on what I know about Spanish phonology and what's the closest Spanish pronunciation to the English one. Unless people do some sort of spelling pronunciation as they do with James. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:57, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

What is the meaning of "your stab at it"? --Thinker78 (talk) 21:15, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

From the phrase "take a stab at". It's like your attempt or guess. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 22:05, 5 April 2019 (UTC)