Help talk:IPA/Mandarin
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ɚ
based on sound file English approximation should be after not far http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~kjohnson/English_Phonetics/vowel_er.html--Dicey2020 (talk) 13:56, 11 December 2019 (UTC)Dicey2020
- This guide now has two different IPA renderings for er, 二，兒/儿. There should be only one. Kanguole 10:05, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
ɻ̩: "somewhat like sir"
British or American? WP Ludicer (talk) 02:53, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- In a General American accent. — Note that rhotic accents do exist in the UK, as well as non-rhotic ones in the US, so don't describe this as a British vs. American matter. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 03:23, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Are there rhotic accents spoken in the British Isles that realize the NURSE vowel as a syllabic approximant? I don't think it hurts to qualify the variety and say "somewhat like American sir", which I'm sure most readers will construe as referring to an R-colored vowel. Nardog (talk) 04:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Good point. [ɚ ~ əɻ] and [ɻ̩] actually realize different rhymes in Standard Mandarin — the former is also a frequent result of erhua, which is completely neglected on this help page. "Somewhat like American sir" is perhaps the best English approximation that a majority of users understand, though that wording will not lead to an easily comprehensible, unambiguous pronunciation in all cases. Or should we write sir or err, in order to prevent a pronunciation with a schwa-y vowel? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Err is often pronounced /ɛər/ in American English. I don't know what's wrong with using sir. Nardog (talk) 09:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe let's use RP furry (which isn't r-colored) for the former and GA fur for the latter? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. Ideally, users should differentiate between the rhymes [ɻ̩], [ɚ], [ɐ˞], and perhaps also [ä˞], though the difference between the latter two is by no means essential and only maintained by a minority of Mandarin speakers. (Very careful or dialect speakers may use V+[ɻ] sequences instead of rhotacized V. — In article Erhua, rhoticized [ɐ˞] and [ä˞] are written [ɐʵ] and [äʵ], a not-really-IPA transcription that is probably due to poor font support of the rhotacized diacritic.) To me it seems quite unacceptable to say that English far is similar to [ɚ], as we currently do. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 13:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie: This suggests that RP furry for [ɚ], GA fur for [ɻ̩] and starring for [ɐ˞] could be the best choice. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:14, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. Ideally, users should differentiate between the rhymes [ɻ̩], [ɚ], [ɐ˞], and perhaps also [ä˞], though the difference between the latter two is by no means essential and only maintained by a minority of Mandarin speakers. (Very careful or dialect speakers may use V+[ɻ] sequences instead of rhotacized V. — In article Erhua, rhoticized [ɐ˞] and [ä˞] are written [ɐʵ] and [äʵ], a not-really-IPA transcription that is probably due to poor font support of the rhotacized diacritic.) To me it seems quite unacceptable to say that English far is similar to [ɚ], as we currently do. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 13:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Good point. [ɚ ~ əɻ] and [ɻ̩] actually realize different rhymes in Standard Mandarin — the former is also a frequent result of erhua, which is completely neglected on this help page. "Somewhat like American sir" is perhaps the best English approximation that a majority of users understand, though that wording will not lead to an easily comprehensible, unambiguous pronunciation in all cases. Or should we write sir or err, in order to prevent a pronunciation with a schwa-y vowel? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- Are there rhotic accents spoken in the British Isles that realize the NURSE vowel as a syllabic approximant? I don't think it hurts to qualify the variety and say "somewhat like American sir", which I'm sure most readers will construe as referring to an R-colored vowel. Nardog (talk) 04:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Kbb2: Yes, we could do that. This means we add r-coloured vowels that are the result of erhua, doesn't it? And if so: Should we use non-standard symbols as in Erhua#Rules in Standard Mandarin, or standard symbols as in zh:兒化音#汉语兒化韻表 (with frequent use of unsyllabic [ɚ̯]) or in fr:Suffixe -er#Tableau synoptique (with the IPA rhotacized diacritic modifying the vowel that constitutes the syllable nucleus throughout)? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:43, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I've never heard anyone pronounce initial <r> as [ɻ]. It's always fricative, even if sometimes rather light. Where is this from? — kwami (talk) 03:31, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
[o]: wo/-uo
Isn't this plain wrong ? [o]: wo/-uo- Maybe what's meant is rather /o/. --Backinstadiums (talk) 07:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
ɔ
This sound is referred to in the article on general tso. Yet, I can't find it referenced here! It would be great if someone could figure that out, either adding the missing sound to this page, or changing the pronunciation guide for general tso (the general). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.212.104 (talk) 03:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that the o sound in Pinyin is ALWAYS pronounced as /ɔ/, and never as /o/. This is simply a mistranscription, in my opinion, and should be fixed. 148.74.122.57 (talk) 15:47, 22 October 2019 (UTC)